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I'd be totally okay with Charisma as a key ability score for a martial class if the ability score benefited them in a special way. That's not the case with the Solarian. It doesn't do anything except determine DCs. This contrasts with other classes, which have abilities that scale with their key ability scores or use skill checks using skills associated with those ability scores.
Yeah and for the Soldier those two stats are 'What you want to stab/shoot a dude' so they line up very naturally.
Melee Soldier would still have the edge defensively. Light armour + wanting literally every stat gives the edge vastly to the soldier over the Solarian.
I'd be totally okay with Charisma as a key ability score for a martial class if the ability score benefited them in a special way. That's not the case with the Solarian. It doesn't do anything except determine DCs. This contrasts with other classes, which have abilities that scale with their key ability scores or use skill checks using skills associated with those ability scores.
I would argue that those DCs are pretty important. You start at level 1 with a once/3 rounds grenade that doesn't hurt you or an AOE pull people out of cover ability.
Also if it wasn't a key ability score, many new players would be more inclined not to pump cha, and its super important for the class.
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Melee Soldier would still have the edge defensively. Light armour + wanting literally every stat gives the edge vastly to the soldier over the Solarian.
You can fix that with a single Feat, at which point Soldier's 'defensive advantage' consists of +1 KAC. Anything that can be almost completely compensated for by one Feat isn't a huge class advantage. Certainly not one that makes up for +10 damage per attack and how much better Revelations are than Feats.
Also, with Str to Resolve all they want is Str and Dex, just like a Soldier. They might well prioritize Cha as a tertiary thing, but not enough to be a big issue for them.
Melee Soldier would still have the edge defensively. Light armour + wanting literally every stat gives the edge vastly to the soldier over the Solarian.You can fix that with a single Feat, at which point Soldier's 'defensive advantage' consists of +1 KAC. Anything that can be almost completely compensated for by one Feat isn't a huge class advantage. Certainly not one that makes up for +10 damage per attack and how much better Revelations are than Feats.
Also, with Str to Resolve all they want is Str and Dex, just like a Soldier. They might well prioritize Cha as a tertiary thing, but not enough to be a big issue for them.
Well, to be fair to the Soldier, it is a little better than just 1 KAC. They can increase max dex to all armor by taking up Guard as a second fighting style at 9th level.
But yeah, Solarians have a lot of other stuff that is good.
You can fix that with a single Feat, at which point Soldier's 'defensive advantage' consists of +1 KAC. Anything that can be almost completely compensated for by one Feat isn't a huge class advantage. Certainly not one that makes up for +10 damage per attack and how much better Revelations are than Feats.
Plasma Sheath lasts for 1 turn (It's 1 turn or until you leave photon. The former is likely to happen a lot sooner.) and takes a move action to put back up again each time it runs out and the +10 is only at level 20.
The Soldier gets 1.5x Strength to damage at all times from a lot earlier.
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Well, to be fair to the Soldier, it is a little better than just 1 KAC. They can increase max dex to all armor by taking up Guard as a second fighting style at 9th level.
Well, at high levels, a Solarian can go Gravity Shield and get +1 AC from that. That would necessitate not going Photon, but it's an option.
But yeah, Solarians have a lot of other stuff that is good.
Indeed, which was rather my point.
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Plasma Sheath lasts for 1 turn (It's 1 turn or until you leave photon. The former is likely to happen a lot sooner.) and takes a move action to put back up again each time it runs out and the +10 is only at level 20.
The Soldier gets 1.5x Strength to damage at all times from a lot earlier.
It lasts the whole time you're in Photon Mode, actually. It doesn't say 'whichever occurs first' after all.
And Photon Mode itself gives about the same size bonus as 1.5x Str (+1 at 1st, +2 at 6th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 18th).
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It lasts the whole time you're in Photon Mode, actually. It doesn't say 'whichever occurs first' after all.
...that's an interesting interpretation. Not sure it's one backed up by the rules.
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It lasts the whole time you're in Photon Mode, actually. It doesn't say 'whichever occurs first' after all....that's an interesting interpretation. Not sure it's one backed up by the rules.
To quote the book:
A revelation that says it lasts for 1 round or until you leave the associated mode lasts for whichever of these durations is longer.
So it's explicitly stated.
I'd be totally okay with Charisma as a key ability score for a martial class if the ability score benefited them in a special way. That's not the case with the Solarian. It doesn't do anything except determine DCs. This contrasts with other classes, which have abilities that scale with their key ability scores or use skill checks using skills associated with those ability scores.
This is my biggest problem with the stat choice too. The cha focus seems odd.
Personally still think Int would have been a really awesome choice, but eh.
To quote the book:A revelation that says it lasts for 1 round or until you leave the associated mode lasts for whichever of these durations is longer.So it's explicitly stated.
Why do people keep missing that line? It's about the fourth time I've seen someone who seems to have missed it completely.
But actually on topic, it would have been amazing to see the solarian have a choice among the mental stats in key ability scores. Personally wisdom seems like the original option as solarians 'meditate' to gain 'a better understanding' of their philosophy and this philosophy was founded by a race with a wisdom bonus after all. I can't see explicit reasons for an Int key score, minus the obvious 'I'm smart enough to understand how this works'
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Has anyone actually built a solarian with Cha of at least 16? Everyone keeps saying it won't work, but I'm not so sure. Such a solarian would concentrate more on using revelations and less on normal damage in combat, and also concentrate on CHA based skills; probably built to be a captain in space combat.
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Has anyone actually built a solarian with Cha of at least 16? Everyone keeps saying it won't work, but I'm not so sure. Such a solarian would concentrate more on using revelations and less on normal damage in combat, and also concentrate on CHA based skills; probably built to be a captain in space combat.
Str 16, Dex 13, Cha 16 seems a valid Korasha Lashunta distribution.
Has anyone actually built a solarian with Cha of at least 16? Everyone keeps saying it won't work, but I'm not so sure. Such a solarian would concentrate more on using revelations and less on normal damage in combat, and also concentrate on CHA based skills; probably built to be a captain in space combat.
I've been toying around with several attribute distributions seeing which ones I like and how can I get the most bang for my level up bucks, etc...
You can start with a 16 Cha and still be fairly competent in melee with any race that doesn't start with a negative in the stat. If you want to completely sac Dex, you can go 16 Str and 16 Cha fairly easily on several races. The Korasha Lashunta lets you bring Dex back into the picture as mentioned already. A 14 starting Str isn't as bad as it sounds if you plan on Weapon Focus since you'll hit an 18 by 10th if you devote your ability points to it. I know the Iconics get some flack for their attribute allocation, but the Iconic Solarian starts with a 14 Str and uses his wealth to buy a +4 Str augment by 8th level with a 16 from level up. Sure, maybe his array doesn't look hyper optimized, and it's not, but the Iconics have given me a lot of ideas when you compare them against each other.
For races that have Cha or Str penalties you may just consider playing them as a ranged character. An Android can start 10 14 10 12 10 16 (missing a 1pt for theme) and take Longarm Prof at 1st level.
I'm still of the opinion that the Solarian has features included on purpose to balance out it's MAD attribute array. Like how Flashing Strikes is an effective +1 to hit for full attacks lessening that most Solarians will be roughly +1 to hit & damage behind a Soldier that can afford to start with an 18 Str. Or how Sidereal Influence slowly lets you gain up to 3 skills with a +1D6 insight bonus. Or how Solar Armor can be effectively the same EAC/KAC as another light armor class (you can get up to a 22 Dex or +6 bonus, have +2 from Solar Armor, and hit the same 40/40 armor as say, an Operative with a 26 Dex). Yes, I'm aware you can maximize any of these features but as they are written, you can easily get by without having ability scores that equal perfect man (or woman).
**Edit, also I think it is worth mentioning that a lot of character building seems to be done in a vacuum. You may very well change your build plan according to what other classes are in your crew. A 14 Str with Weapon Focus (for a +3 to hit before BAB) is less of a concern if you have anyone else that can grant Flat-Footed. If you're the only melee on the team, then maybe you'll favor physical stats more. Also, I don't think Solarians have to be pigeon-holed into a Captain. That is just an obvious path. Just about anyone can be a Gunner and they can make very effective Pilots. I haven't tinkered with a concept around Engineer or Science Officer, but I'd imagine they can fill those roles if you plan for it. I'm not stating they are the best at any of those, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility to build for those roles either.
It does not even have to be a mechanical reason, it can be thematic.
They want solarians to have charisma the same reason they wanted sorceress or oracle to have charisma as an essential attribute.
Force of will and so worth.
It does not even have to be a mechanical reason, it can be thematic.
They want solarians to have charisma the same reason they wanted sorceress or oracle to have charisma as an essential attribute.
Force of will and so worth.
Yes, but they backed that up with mechanics. You need charisma to cast spells on those classes. You get more spells the more charisma you have on those classes. The DC to resist your spells is based on charisma.
You can't just say "I want you to have X" and then be completely mismatched with the mechanics or people will not have x.
This was a problem for the chained rogue and dexterity.
In 3.x it was a problem for wizards elves and dwarves. Elves were touted as being great wizards and dwarves distrustful of magic but the actual mechanics made dwarves the best wizards around and elves pretty bad at it so... Goodbye Leafy Wizard Hello Beardy McSpellbook.
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Has anyone actually built a solarian with Cha of at least 16? Everyone keeps saying it won't work, but I'm not so sure. Such a solarian would concentrate more on using revelations and less on normal damage in combat, and also concentrate on CHA based skills; probably built to be a captain in space combat.
I've stated up a Human Str 14/Dex 11/Cha 18 build, going Heavy armor and Improved Disarm with a taclash, but not played it. It'd be a bit weak at 1st level, but at 2nd you get reusable control in the form of Radiation (DC 15). Radiation + Improved Combat Maneuver (Disarm) + Taclash is effectively +8 to disarm. You just stay in Photon mode, try to disarm, and make AoOs with your reach.
Also, at the beginning of each day, make sure to make all your allies immune to your Radiation for 24 hours by having them pass a saving throw, so it doesn't come up as an issue during combat. Radiation is actually one of the more team friendly AoEs.
Continue to take control powers (and probably go unbalanced). Grab Flare, Crush, Hypnotic Glow. You now have maxed save DCs against Fort, Reflex, and Will usable against every enemy you encounter at least once. In principle, while not the greatest damage, it might make a decent "tank".
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But how does it look at level 19? Nobody really cares about stats you won't have for the vast majority of your career (most don't spend more than a couple of games at level 20, at most, if any at all).
One I have seen for human that is pushing nothing past 18:01: 14, 13, 10, 10, 12, 14
05: 16, 15, 12, 10, 14, 16
10: 18, 15, 14, 12, 14, 18
15: 18, 17, 16, 14, 16, 18
20: 18, 18, 18, 16, 18, 18With items:
24, 20, 18, 16, 18, 22
Well, adding the same items to the 15th level stats, from 15th on they look like this:
Str 24 Dex 19 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22
Which isn't bad at all.
So much for my reading comprehension. I somehow failed to notice that he posted the progression at all levels, not just level 20.
I'm bloody blind.
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Also, at the beginning of each day, make sure to make all your allies immune to your Radiation for 24 hours by having them pass a saving throw, so it doesn't come up as an issue during combat. Radiation is actually one of the more team friendly AoEs.
Note to people whose alignment doesn't end in E: party members who plan to reproduce and/or live to reach old age may object to this treatment.
But how does it look at level 19? Nobody really cares about stats you won't have for the vast majority of your career (most don't spend more than a couple of games at level 20, at most, if any at all).
One I have seen for human that is pushing nothing past 18:01: 14, 13, 10, 10, 12, 14
05: 16, 15, 12, 10, 14, 16
10: 18, 15, 14, 12, 14, 18
15: 18, 17, 16, 14, 16, 18
20: 18, 18, 18, 16, 18, 18With items:
24, 20, 18, 16, 18, 22
Well, adding the same items to the 15th level stats, from 15th on they look like this:
Str 24 Dex 19 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22
Which isn't bad at all.
Looks like 5 stats were increased by 2 at 5th level (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha).
Omitting that extra stat bump would look like:
01: 14 13 10 10 12 14
05: 16 15 12 10 12 16
10: 18 15 14 12 14 16
15: 18 17 16 12 16 18
20: 18 18 18 14 18 18
or 24 19 16 12 16 22 at 15th
Still not too bad.
Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me in D&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE! Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
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Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inD&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
If you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?
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Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inD&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
Solarian is the highest DPR class in the game, and very effective in numerous ways. They are in no way a 'crippled mess'.
Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inD&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!If you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?
Because I wanted to see what others thought of the game, and like I said, the Solarian seemed cool?
Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inIf you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?D&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
Seriously. There's tons of scifi games available. Star wars, star trek, FATE, sci fi adaptations of literally every edition of D&D, and lots more. If you can't stand Starfinder, pick one of the many on the market.
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Seriously, Solarians maybe having 1 less Resolve than a Soldier hardly cripples them. At least they get Perception as a class skill. Speaking of which, I agree that the more annoying issue is their skills. They get the bonus 2 class skills, but probably won't ever use them!
Tarik, did you miss that Hypnotic Glow's attuned effect is command? Letting you disarm or remove them from the fight.
Seriously. There's tons of scifi games available. Star wars, star trek, FATE, sci fi adaptations of literally every edition of D&D, and lots more. If you can't stand Starfinder, pick one of the many on the market.Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inIf you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?D&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
Yes, yes, ignore the reply I gave. Just try to gang up on me, that's cool. Also, maybe I'm looking at Starfinder because I like Pathfinder, rather than specifically looking for a sci-fi game?
Charm doesn't fail in combat, they just get a +5 bonus to their save. Not amazing, but it does seem to work without completely falling apart.
We'd need to see the expected saves for a CD 6 critter to get a sense of how likely it is to work in combat, but I think you could easily get a DC of 17-18 at level 6.
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Although another weird thing I found is rereading the Radiation Revelation. Even though it talks about low-level radiation, I'm pretty convinced that it isn't actually a radiation effect. The DCs aren't the comparable, the effect never actually references the radiation rules, and it doesn't do the same thing as actual radiation.
I'm thinking it just gives you an aura that sickens people, unless they're immune to poison. No interaction with armor, or other rad fields, or anything. Just exactly what the ability says.
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Yes, yes, ignore the reply I gave. Just try to gang up on me, that's cool. Also, maybe I'm looking at Starfinder because I like Pathfinder, rather than specifically looking for a sci-fi game?Seriously. There's tons of scifi games available. Star wars, star trek, FATE, sci fi adaptations of literally every edition of D&D, and lots more. If you can't stand Starfinder, pick one of the many on the market.Oh, the Solarian, the only thing really cool and interesting to me inIf you don't like anything about the game, why are you here?D&D 5TH EDITION: IN SPAAAACE!Starfinder turns out to be a crippled mess? I never would have expected that from a game that has lame races, poaches a few of the things I hate from 5E, and has that terrible Resolve Point system!
I'm sorry I started a dogpile. That wasn't my intention.
My issue is that while plenty of posters beforehand have demonstrated the viability, utility and general fun of playing a Solarion, you just complained about every interesting thing that Starfinder has as a rule set.
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It seemed contradictory to me since they need to be charmed which generally fails in combat situations but it functions as command but still references charm and... /goes cross-eyedSeriously, Solarians maybe having 1 less Resolve than a Soldier hardly cripples them. At least they get Perception as a class skill. Speaking of which, I agree that the more annoying issue is their skills. They get the bonus 2 class skills, but probably won't ever use them!
Tarik, did you miss that Hypnotic Glow's attuned effect is command? Letting you disarm or remove them from the fight.
Charming the person is usually what triggers the fight. The ability makes charming one person in a group of possible foes actually do something. In Pathfinder, if you charmed one of the mercenaries, their buddies would attack your friends and the one you charmed would attack anyone but you. That command effect makes the whole ability tons more useful.