Rogue - starting noob questions :)

[Azurespark]

ChaiGuy wrote:

One thing about Pathfinder is that you need to make sure you keep track of what the bonus types you gain from items, spells ect. since most bonus types don't add together (or stack as it is often called), instead your character gains the benefit of the higher bonus. In this case the bonuses from Trapspringer's Gloves and masterwork thieves tools stack, since the bonuses are competence and circumstance.

I think you made a typo there. Bonuses from multiple sources do stack, so long as they are different types, like in your example there.

But if the bonuses are of the same type, then you only gain the benefit of the higher bonus. So if you got a +2 and +3 and both are competence bonuses, then you would only benefit from the +3.

[ChaiGuy]

Azurespark wrote:

ChaiGuy wrote:

One thing about Pathfinder is that you need to make sure you keep track of what the bonus types you gain from items, spells ect. since most bonus types don't add together (or stack as it is often called), instead your character gains the benefit of the higher bonus. In this case the bonuses from Trapspringer's Gloves and masterwork thieves tools stack, since the bonuses are competence and circumstance.

I think you made a typo there. Bonuses from multiple sources do stack, so long as they are different types, like in your example there.

But if the bonuses are of the same type, then you only gain the benefit of the higher bonus. So if you got a +2 and +3 and both are competence bonuses, then you would only benefit from the +3.

You're right, I meant say bonuses of the same type don't stack, as you have pointed out, thank you for the clarification. :)

[Tacticslion]

blashimov wrote:

To hide with a cloak, you want a cloak of elven kind, not a shadow cloak.

NaeNae wrote:

Why would I want to pick a +5 over +15 to Stealth checks?

Because you can't make a cloak a "shadow" cloak - that particular aspect is entirely unique to armors.

This statement is likely debatable - but it's under armor, so most GMs will likely rule that you can't get it unless it's placed on an armor, as described in-game.

Further, the more stuff you put on a single item (like all on your armor) the more that costs, and the more vulnerable you are to a sunder or targeted disintegrate or thievery or whatever.

That said, you'll likely eventually want to get a cloak of resistance at some point instead of cloak of elven kind.

NaeNae wrote:

So I am to understand, that it's possible to have bonus magical properties on items, as long as they are not seen as a +X enchantment? So I can have say... Wings of Flying, which has no +X just gild cost. Then Greater Shadow for a +5 and say... Spell Resistance 19?

That is exactly correct.

NaeNae wrote:

Edit:

I just noticed some enchantments have Price of +X Bonus and some have just Gold Price. Is it what you ment with just gold cost? Does that mean you can stack all gold enchantments on one item without limits? If so, it's extremely overpowered.

Correct insofar as you suggest that is what you can do.

Incorrect in terms of being "over powered" - there are far too many things that can just go wrong, and most of the "+moneycost" abilities written up don't really add to your actual fundamental use of the item's primary feature.

That said, though I could be misunderstanding your wording, it seems you're missing something significant with armor costs.

Armor

"Shadow" is not a "+5" armor bonus cost - it's a "+goldcost" cost instead.

The ones where you simply add money to get the feature:
- benevolent
- poison-resistant
- glamered
- jousting
- shadow (including improved and greater variants)
- slick (including improved and greater variants)
- expeditious
- creeping
- rallying
- adhesive
- hosteling
- radiant
- delving
- putrid
- harmonizing
- energy resistance (including improved and greater variants)
- martyring
- righteous
- unbound
- vigilant
- determination
- etherealness
- undead controlling

Any other abilities actually require increasing you '+' value to the armor.

It may seem able to be scaled up infinitely, but it's not - you will run out of cash before you have everything.

But let's presuppose you get the ability to add every one of those on there (well, at least once - I'm not counting the greater energy resistance more than once, so it'll be a lot more) 473,450 gold.

If you actually nab +5 to your AC and enough other bonuses to hit that +10 threshold, it'll be 573,450 gold.

For comparison, that's more than the full wealth of an 18th level character.

Sure, you could buy that by 20th level, but... eh.

As a comparison, most of the time, grabbing some wands that net you most of the same effects will cost you a fraction of the cost and will be far more useful, because it's not all tied to the same piece of stank leather you wear all the time.

The most useful wand to replace that 33,750 gold greater shadow enchantment (or, heck, 15,000 improved shadow armor enhancement)? A 4,500 gold value wand of invisibility - which will net you a +20 to stealth and grant you the concealment needed to use that skill (as you normally can't use stealth without cover or concealment). And if you're a stealth specialist, unless the creature you're facing has an auto-notice-you ability (like scent or blindsight or see invisibility or something) or exceeds your level by such a huge margin that a natural 20 would have failed your stealth check, that +20 stealth bonus is going to be enough.

Heck, spend twelve thousand gold and have it be continuous - still a better deal than the improved shadow enhancement.

That said, the bonuses do stack - so you could get the +5 or +10 or +15 from the shadow armor as well as a +20 from the invisibility - but in most cases, that's unnecessary.

This was why I was encouraging you to get the vanish magic item, earlier, when you had the chance. It won't make you a super stealth person in some regards (because it only lasts a round or two per use, and the price I gave you was for speaking the word out loud), but it's great for not being seen and managing to move across the battlefield without provoking attacks (or, if you do, making your foes suck on a 50% miss chance).

Also, something really, really important: you can buy armor with up to +10 value, but to make a magic armor of any kind whatsoever, it not only has to be masterwork (+150 gold from the base cost of normal armor of its kind), but also has to be a +1 (so +1,000 on top of that - before you pay for any sort of enchantment).

So, for example, let's look at some leather armors for 100,160 gold:
- I could buy a +5 spell resistance (19) leather armor
- or I could buy a +3 heavy fortification, impervious, spell-storing leather armor
- or I could purchase a +1 heavy fortification, spell resistance (17) leather armor.

In all three cases, the total enhancement bonus is +10.

- +5 for armor enhancement, +5 for spell resistance (19)

- +3 armor enhancement, +5 heavy fortification, +1 spell storing, +1 impervious

- +1 armor enhancement, +5 heavy fortification, +4 spell resistance (17)

I could also spend 33,750 gold to nab greater shadow on any of those, because that doesn't affect the '+' bonus of the armor.

As an aside, Spell Resistance is awful, and you should avoid getting it if you possibly can. It seems cool, in theory, but in practice, it's mildly annoying when monsters have it, and very frustrating when PCs have it - frustrating for the PCs, who suddenly have a hard time healing or buffing themselves or their allies.

What I could not purchase is a +6 leather armor (you can't have an enhancement bonus higher than +5), nor could I purchase a +1 heavy fortification, spell resistance (19) leather armor (it has a total value of +11), and I could not purchase a heavy fortification, spell resistance (19) leather armor (because I have to have a minimum of +1 to the enhancement bonus, and each of the other two - heavy fortification and SR (19) are +5).

I hope that clears things up?

[NaeNae]

So how does it work exactly? Masterwork armor is considered +1 and for that costs a bonus 150gp. But you speak of a +5 enhancement armor. How can that be calculated? Is it like for each bonus +1 you have to go 1.5 times the previous bonus price? So for a +2 it would be base + 150 + 225?

Edit:
I'm reading through combat as well. What's the difference between natural, primary and secondary attacks? From what I understand, you can only attack once per turn, unless you have two or more values in your BAB, that's when more attacks become available.

But what if someone has a natural attack but is wielding a weapon? Weapon is primary and the other becomes what? Secondary? Does it mean that if they attack with the weapon, the natural attack is wasted?

[Deighton Thrane]

Masterwork armor isn't magical, merely a very well made piece of armor. As such it has a 1 point reduction in armor check penalty, but that's it. Magic armor needs to be at least masterwork quality before it can be enchanted, so +150 GP on top of the base armor price. The price of the armor is equal to the enhancement bonus (or + equivalence if it has special abilities) squared times 1000 GP, plus any flat gold abilities, plus the original cost of the armor. So a +2 shadowed leather armor would cost 4000 GP for the enhancement, 3750 for shadow, and 160 for masterwork leather for a total of 7910 GP.

As for natural attacks, with a full attack action you can make an attack for every natural attack you have that isn't on a limb currently wielding a weapon, in addition to the attacks you are making with your weapon(s). When combining natural attacks with attacks from a manufactured weapon, all natural attacks are considered secondary attacks.

The difference between a primary natural attack and a secondary natural attack is that a primary attack is made at your full BAB, and you apply full str bonus to your damage. A secondary attack is made at your full BAB -5, and only adds half your strength bonus to damage.

EDIT - Also, if it wasn't clear, an enhancement bonus is the +1-5 on armor and weapons. Technically a masterwork weapon has an enhancement bonus to attack, but doesn't receive an enhancement bonus to damage until it is magically enchanted. Masterwork armor only receives the reduced armor check penalty until magically enchanted.

[Wultram]

Link

I suggest using that site. It is a lot easier to find information than in books.(when you know what you are looking for.) And it is a lot better organized in my opinion than the other sites.(Archives of Nethys has the best search function though)

Since the magical items are something of a recurring topic I have decided to create an example. I should point out that this is not some highly thought out build. Just something to illustrate some points.

I am assuming that the rogue is the fairly standard two weapon fighter with melee focus and is using weapon finesse to not rely on strenght to hit. I am also very heavily relying on my memory and because I do not play rogues some of the choices I make will miss some better options because of it. I am assuming someone with the normal WBL of 11th level of 82k gold. Another assumtion is that the rogue is adventuring with the fairly standard of one arcane, one divine caster as well as a melee beathstick.

1) Belt of dex +4 16k. This is a good choice because it increases our reflex save by +2, same with our armor class, same to hit and to damage(not normally but keep reading.)
2) Celestial Armor 22,400. This is a very expensive item at this level, however it is worth the investment because it has maxium dex bonus of 8, which means that if we started with 20dex, increased it at level 4 and 8 followed by the +4 enchament bonus of the belt, we actually can benefit from all of that. In adtion to the normal armor bonus of +4 and the +3 enchament bonus that the armor has. The ability to use the spell fly once a day is a welcome bonus for those times that the partys casters can't help against flying opponents.
3) Two +1 agile weapons 16600+normal weapon cost. These allow us to deal with DR/magic which is very common place and tends to be high as well. Agile enchament essentially gives us +8 damage(+4 to offhand unless you mess with certain things)
4) Ring of protection +1 2k. Simple +1 AC
5) Ring of counterspells 4k. Now this is a bit more complex item, but it relies on help from your caster friends. Allows you to throw wrench into the plans of someone who tries to use magic to mess your plan up. Hardly a must have item but can certainly be nice.
6) Amulet of natural armor +1 2k. Another +1 AC
7) Cloak of resistance +2 4k. +2 to all saves, this goes a long way to not getting hosed by someone targeting your will or fortitude saves.
8) Two crached Pale green Ioun stones 8k. One is for saves one is for attack. And since these are competence bonuses these stack. Upgrading either your weapons or cloak of resistance to get the adtional +1 these give would be more expensive.
9) Eyes of the eagle 2,5k. These give +5 perception, good for anyone but even more so for the trapspotter of the group.
10)Sleeves of many garments 200gp. It is always nice to have disguise ready, and if so inclined to appear unarmored.
11) The rest we can assume went into miscellinous gear(back up weapons, potions and so forth) and party funds(wands of CLW for example.)

As said this is not something absolutely wonderful choice of gear. But I more made this as an example and with reasoning for each item. Hopefully this will help understanding how gear choices are made. If any guestions remain please ask and I will try to answer to best of my ability.

[NaeNae]

I forgot that armors reduce the penalties and not increase the ac. But regarding weapons, is it possible to make a masterwork weapon of +2? Without magical enchantment, just enhancement?

As for the magical item list, how badly affected will my char be if I decide to pick other things? It seems like I will be losing at least +2 to attack rolls, some 5AC. I'm just curious, if it’s a take-or-die situation. So far I believed RPGs are all about choices, less so about forced decisions.

[Deighton Thrane]

The enhancement bonus on a weapon is a magical enchantment, so no, you can't have a non magical +2 weapon. As for the choices in magic items, it really depends on the difficulty of the game to decide what pace you're going to want the big 6 items. If your GM is playing with kids gloves, it likely doesn't matter how much you optimize, you'll likely come out ahead. If every encounter is a CR=APL+2-3, you'll likely have a hard time keeping up without bonuses to attack and saves.

That is one of the bigger lamentations with pathfinder though, that very few magical items are worth buying over the big 6. There are usually a few items characters will consider though, depending on their build. Like eyes of the eagle, hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion. All good items not technically in the big 6 that can be really useful, and not overly expensive.

[NaeNae]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

The enhancement bonus on a weapon is a magical enchantment, so no, you can't have a non magical +2 weapon.

Is it impossible to have a weapon that gives more than +1 to attack rolls? If yes, then it's poop.

Deighton Thrane wrote:

As for the choices in magic items, it really depends on the difficulty of the game to decide what pace you're going to want the big 6 items.

What pace to acquire them. So in the end I will still need to build them to not be utterly useless in combat? That's just... Ugh. I hopped it will not be that noticeable. I do intend to grab that +Dex item, but the rest just seems like, take or die options. Still it can't be that bad... I will see how the campaign goes and what will we need to stay safe.

Deighton Thrane wrote:

That is one of the bigger lamentations with pathfinder though, that very few magical items are worth buying over the big 6. There are usually a few items characters will consider though, depending on their build. Like eyes of the eagle, hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion. All good items not technically in the big 6 that can be really useful, and not overly expensive.

What else can there possibly be? I would assume bonuses to perception and stealth would be a brainless choices for a rogue. But what of weapons? Anything good I should keep an eye out for? I saw that returning enchantment that let's me throw daggers and still remain armed during my next turn, that's interesting. Other than that, I don't understand what's the difference of adding 1d4 fire dmg over 1d4 cold dmg. I assume some enemies are resistant to cold/fire. But in such a case, wouldn't it be better to use a holy weapon? Most of our enemies will be evil either way, no?

[Wultram]

It also isn't so much that there aren't any other items one would want, it is just that usually they are way overpriced when compared to the usual stuff.(then there is the fact that magical items slots are also something to consider, I might get some magical cloak, but I want to keep my cloak of resistance so I won't) I would also point out that is a very generic gear set up. Sure my usual characters do spend about 70-80% of their gold into them but without a very clear idea on character and goals the more exotic items is not really something you can suggest.

But just as an example, if I am playing a monk and I have a wizard(or another class capable of casting the spell) in the party I am likely going to buy them a pearl of power 1, and ask them to cast a mage armor for me at start of the day.

But why you need the big 6 items are rather simple. AC for example, about the maxium AC without magical items is a bit above 20. That is pretty damn awesome protection at level 1, when the highest attack bonus you are gonna see without going full out is something like +7. When level 20 rolls out simple BAB means that on anything than natural 1 they will hit you. Saves work in a similar fashion. And given that itearitive attacks get a minoum of -5 to attack, you want to get bonuses to your hit as well.

Now there are workarounds to somethings. For example dwarf paladin that has the steel soul feat, could get away with not getting a cloak of resistance. Certain builds do not care about having AC boosters instead relying on just tanking the hits or having miss chance instead.

[Wultram]

NaeNae wrote:

Deighton Thrane wrote:

The enhancement bonus on a weapon is a magical enchantment, so no, you can't have a non magical +2 weapon.

Is it impossible to have a weapon that gives more than +1 to attack rolls? If yes, then it's poop.

Deighton Thrane wrote:

As for the choices in magic items, it really depends on the difficulty of the game to decide what pace you're going to want the big 6 items.

What pace to acquire them. So in the end I will still need to build them to not be utterly useless in combat? That's just... Ugh. I hopped it will not be that noticeable. I do intend to grab that +Dex item, but the rest just seems like, take or die options. Still it can't be that bad... I will see how the campaign goes and what will we need to stay safe.

Deighton Thrane wrote:

That is one of the bigger lamentations with pathfinder though, that very few magical items are worth buying over the big 6. There are usually a few items characters will consider though, depending on their build. Like eyes of the eagle, hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion. All good items not technically in the big 6 that can be really useful, and not overly expensive.

What else can there possibly be? I would assume bonuses to perception and stealth would be a brainless choices for a rogue. But what of weapons? Anything good I should keep an eye out for? I saw that returning enchantment that let's me throw daggers and still remain armed during my next turn, that's interesting. Other than that, I don't understand what's the difference of adding 1d4 fire dmg over 1d4 cold dmg. I assume some enemies are resistant to cold/fire. But in such a case, wouldn't it be better to use a holy weapon? Most of our enemies will be evil either way, no?

You managed to ninja me by a couple of seconds so let's go over these 1 by 1.

1) Without magic yes. With magic you can go up to +5 to hit and damage(also helps with damage resistance)

2) I would rate the belt of dex and cloak of resistance to be your 2 most important items.

3A) What else is there? Well for example there is a ring that makes it so you don't need to eat or drink and you can only manage rest with 2h of sleep. Unfettered shirt gives you 10 rounds of freedom of movement a day. Boots of speed are the same but with haste, Snipers goggles are pretty much mandotory if you are building for ranged sneak attack. Sandals of quick reaction are awesome way of increasing your action economy in surprise rounds. Gloves of dueling is something that pretty much every fighter wants. Cloak of displacement is an awesome item if you don't need to rely on cloak of resistance. Helm of mammoth lord is not too expensive way of getting a gore attack with some adtional bonuses to boot. Headband of ninjutsu is a nice item as well. The list can go a long further than this.

3B) And yes the different elements come into play with resistances or on the other side of the coin with vulnerabilities. And yes holy would be better, but Holy is also +2 enchament where as the former are +1 so it is supposed to be better.(that being said the elemental enchaments generally speaking are poor choices) It also depends on many things on if something is good for you or not. For example an impact is usually fairly substandard choice, but for one character of mine it was marvelous choice, because when he buffed himself he wielded a gargantuan sized weapon which ment it gave him +2d6 damage instead of the normal much lesser damage boost, and since he relied on attacks of opportunity to protect the squishies or more so threath of them, it was important because of other abilities that I do not go in here, the synergy ment that IF that AoO was a crit(which was fairly likely due to 15-20 threath range) the enemy risked a very sizable chunk of their HP and with non bruiser types even death.

[NaeNae]

How about a Headband that gives +6 Charisma or Intellect? They are not "that" expensive and would help me greatly. Also do I understand it right, that if you wear it non stop, that +6 will be counted as permanent bonus? As in it will increase the number of bombs per day I can throw and the amount of skill points I get per level?

And speaking of bombs, can someone specify how their range works? It states that they hit the target for my sneak dice and 5 feet radius around it. So am I to understand that from my initial target, it's one in each direction, or is it a 3x3? Also... The range in the book show the origin of the spell as a cross in the grid and the description of the bomb states throwing it at a square, not a cross between them. So how is it done actually?

[*Khan*]

So many post now, so excuse me if this has already been proposed:
Mist assassin (rogue/oracle)
Mist Assassin
You have the cha to make it work. You only need 1 level dip to get watery sight revelation and the spell obscuring mist.
I would go either with a reach weapon or a ranged weapon to get best advantage of full cover which you only get 10+ ft. away from your prey.
But the efficiency of this build depends a lot of your group and your tactics - obscuring mist could fast be problematic to your allies.

[Azurespark]

NaeNae wrote:

How about a Headband that gives +6 Charisma or Intellect? They are not "that" expensive and would help me greatly. Also do I understand it right, that if you wear it non stop, that +6 will be counted as permanent bonus? As in it will increase the number of bombs per day I can throw and the amount of skill points I get per level?

When a bonus lasts for more than 24 hours, it becomes permanent. But once you lose that bonus (such as taking off that headband of int), you lose anything granted by it. So yes the increased int would give you more bombs per day, but if you took the headband off, you would lose the extra bombs until you have once again worn the headband for more than 24 hours.

Quote:

And speaking of bombs, can someone specify how their range works? It states that they hit the target for my sneak dice and 5 feet radius around it. So am I to understand that from my initial target, it's one in each direction, or is it a 3x3? Also... The range in the book show the origin of the spell as a cross in the grid and the description of the bomb states throwing it at a square, not a cross between them. So how is it done actually?

Yes, a 5 foot radius would be 1 square in every direction around the target. It can also be considered a 3x3 grind with the target being in the middle and splash hits the 8 squares around it. That is assuming the target is medium sized or smaller.

[Deighton Thrane]

NaeNae wrote:

How about a Headband that gives +6 Charisma or Intellect? They are not "that" expensive and would help me greatly. Also do I understand it right, that if you wear it non stop, that +6 will be counted as permanent bonus? As in it will increase the number of bombs per day I can throw and the amount of skill points I get per level?

The bonus they provide are considered permanent after being worn for 24 hours. A headband of vast intelligence doesn't actually provide extra skill points per level. Instead, for every +2 bonus there is a skill that receives skill ranks equal to the users character level, so essentially you always have full ranks in the provided skills, but you can't split points between many skills. Also, not that expensive is relative. At level 9 a +6 headband of vast intelligence is almost all your wealth. At level 15 it's about an eighth. So that's what I was talking about with pace you want to acquire items, at certain points items could be either be trivial to pick up, or the entirety of your wealth. Usually what you want to do is look at a list of items you want, and compare how much are they actually going to help your build, versus how much do they cost. Some things are easier to compare than others, like a belt of dex to a headband of int, same price, but one item boosts AC, attack, reflex saves, skills bonus, and initiative, the other is one skill, one extra bomb, and extra damage on bombs. The dex belt affects more rolls, and rolls that are more likely to come up more often, so it should probably be bought before the headband of int. It's a little harder comparing a ring of invisibility to a cloak of resistance, but considering one is 20000 GP, and the other starts at 1000 GP, chances are you'll want at least one of the lower level cloaks before picking up the ring.

NaeNae wrote:

And speaking of bombs, can someone specify how their range works? It states that they hit the target for my sneak dice and 5 feet radius around it. So am I to understand that from my initial target, it's one in each direction, or is it a 3x3? Also... The range in the book show the origin of the spell as a cross in the grid and the description of the bomb states throwing it at a square, not a cross between them. So how is it done actually?

Bombs only do full damage to the target you're aiming at, and do lesser damage, aka splash damage, to all creatures in squares adjacent to the target. You can choose to not aim at a target, but a grid intersection, and deal splash damage to creatures in the adjacent squares. So with a direct attack, the splash damage affects all 8 squares adjacent to the target (if it's a large creature, you choose which square the attack is directed to). If you target a grid intersection, it works like spells, so you would only affect creatures in the 4 squares that make up that intersection.

Edit - Also, for the range, it's a 20 foot range increment. So up to 20 feet you can throw the bomb with no penalty, but every 20 feet past takes a cumulative -2 penalty. So throwing a bomb 25-40 feet has a -2 penalty to attack. Throwing 65-80 feet has a -6 penalty.

[Wultram]

Headband of intellect/charisma. At really high levels those are an option +2 at midleves sure. For charisma circlet of persuasion is usually good enough for people who just want skill bonuses, as a bonus it also uses the head slot not the headband.

[NaeNae]

Why would you target an intersection and affect 4 squares over aiming at a guy and having guaranteed hit on him, either splash or direct hit dmg? I don't understand that.

[Deighton Thrane]

Targeting an intersection requires hitting AC 5, whereas attacking the target directly requires hitting their touch AC. Also, when you miss with a splash weapon the attack ends up landing 1 square away for every range increment, in a random direction. So throwing from 30 feet away could mean missing entirely, and possibly doing damage to your own teammates.

[*Khan*]

I presume you are only getting sneak attack damage on a direct hit and not on splash damage?

[Ciaran Barnes]

I imagine that your ability scores are set and cannot be changed. I understand why you put the 14 in Intelligence. I like skill points too, but a rogue already has a bunch of them so a 12 would have worked just fine. A rogue is already very skilled without focusing on being skilled. I'd rather have some extra hit points.

Get yourself a rapier, dagger, sap, and shortbow. Never mind the short sword - the rapier is your main melee weapon. This will give you d6 damage instead of d4, but more importantly it increases your crit range.

If you haven't already, switch to the unchained rogue. The only difference at 1st level is that you get Weapon Finesse for free. There are other differences as you gain levels.

When you reach 3rd level, your attacks will deal d6 +Dex damage. Not much, I know, but you need to train yourself to create opportunities to apply sneak attack, which will be +2d6 at 3rd level. Stick close to your allies so you can get a flank. Every chance you get, tumble into a flank. If you don't move, use a 5-ft step every chance you get. Encourage your allies to do the same. If you start think about getting that flank at the beginning of your turn then you are waiting too long. You must start thinking about how you will get a flank on your next turn.

If your ally 5-ft steps into a space that allows you to 5-ft step into a flank, then that is ideal. Playing PF or other RPGs as a group of individuals will result in lessened results. Teamwork will always more the game fun for everyone involved.

[NaeNae]

As was already said, I can’t change to U-Rogue right now due to GM.

As far as I see bombs, they have a range of 20 feet, and considering my aim is to get into melee, I don't think I will be throwing them from further away. That means... It either hits the target, or a square right next to it, still dealing splash damage.

The longer I read of other classes, the stronger I belive, I should be playing a Trap Breaker Alchemist. But oh well... At least I am having fun creating new chars for future fun.

Thir Rogue taught me a lot about how characters work and what's what. But many more questions remain... So back to magical items!

1.
"A magic weapon must have at least a [+]1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities."

2.
"Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value."

3.
"A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls."

There... Does that mean that I only need a masterwork weapon to enchant it with say, Returning? Or will I have to get a masterwork weapon, then enchant it with a +1 mqgical bonus and only then with Returning?

If it's the second, it's stupidly expensive.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Did your GM say why you can't switch?

[NaeNae]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Did your GM say why you can't switch?

Because he was not familiar with the changes done to unchained rogue. Because he has life, family and a dedicated Star Wars RP guild in The Old Republic MMO. And I don't think he owns the Unchained PDF.

[ChaiGuy]

@ NaeNae: The weapon must be first masterwork, then made +1 and then have the returning special weapon ability added. Therefore it needs to be a +1 returning (weapon). It would cost 8,300 + the cost of the weapon.

The blinkback belt is a cheaper option for this, it cost 5,000 gold. I think you'll need the quick draw feat to make most of it though.

Throwing is considered the weakest of the fighting styles from what I can recall.

[Tacticslion]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Did your GM say why you can't switch?

Yes. Upthread she clarified that the GM doesn't know the Unchained stuff, and so isn't comfortable allowing others to use it, at present.

Others have argued that his lack of understanding and current unwillingness or disinterest in learning the differences and gauging whether or not it wants these constitutes the equivalent of a moral failing on the GM's part - I disagree. Of course, I'm a super-busy guy, so I might be more inclined to sympathize. :)

NaeNae wrote:

If it's the second, it's stupidly expensive.

It's the second.

You have to pay:
- the cost of the weapon (usually between 1-80 gold going off memory, so there may be likely different maximum value)
- the cost of the masterwork upgrade (300 gold for a weapon)
- the cost of a +1 weapon (so at least 2.000 gold; but see below)
- the cost of any other enchantment

So, for example, let's look at adding the returning property to a dagger.

A normal dagger is 1 gold.

A masterwork dagger is +300, so 301 gold.

A +1 enhancement bonus (necessary step) is 2,000 gold: so 2,301 gold. But this is where the math gets a little... strange.

The returning property adds another +1 to the total equivalent price. That nets a total of +2, or +8,000 gold. However, you've already paid 2,000 gold for that +1 value, so the increase to +2 is only the difference between them, or 8,000-2,000 = +6,000 gold. That is to say, you can ignore lower +-value costs, and just go with the highest +-value cost.

So how do you really calculate the cost?

A normal dagger is 1 gold. Same as before.

A masterwork dagger is +300, so 301 gold. Same as before.

You need to apply a +1 enhancement bonus as well as the returning property (which is another +1 value), for a total of a +2 enhancement bonus equivalent; that is 8,000 gold: so 8,301 gold.

So to get a +1 returning dagger, you pay 8,301 gold.

This would also be the same price you pay for a +2 dagger.

Or a +1 bane dagger.

So long as the total '+' bonus is the same, you go with the higher price.

But let's see some other, +3 daggers just to look at more options and examples:

* a +3 dagger costs 18,301 gold

* a +2 returning dagger (also a +3 equivalent) costs 18,301 gold

* a +1 bane, returning dagger (also a +3 equivalent) costs 18,301 gold.

Armor follows the same paradigm, but different price values.

For the purpose of this example, let's presume you want a deathless and/or a spell storing armor.

A studded leather costs 25 gold.

A masterwork armor adds +150 gold to the cost, for a total of 175 gold.

To gain either the deathless property or the spell storing property, the armor must first be a +1; that would normally be +1,000 gold (total of 1,175 gold). However, no matter which of the two properties you add, the armor will become a +2, so we can ignore that. To get anything you want, we'll need to have a +2. That is +4,000 gold to the price, for a total of 4,175 gold. What can we purchase with that? Any one of the following:
* +2 studded leather
* +1 deathless studded leather
* +1 spell storing studded leather
* any other +1 or higher magical studded leather that adds up to +2

That doesn't net you both properties you wanted, to get them both, you'd need +9,000 to the cost of the nonmagic item to bring the equivalent to a +3. So 9,175 gold. What does that buy? Any one of the following:
* +3 studded leather
* +2 deathless studded leather
* +2 spell storing studded leather
* +1 deathless, spell storing studded leather
* any other +1 or higher magical studded leather that adds up to +3

Does that make sense?

[Ciaran Barnes]

NaeNae wrote:

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Did your GM say why you can't switch?

Because he was not familiar with the changes done to unchained rogue. Because he has life, family and a dedicated Star Wars RP guild in The Old Republic MMO. And I don't think he owns the Unchained PDF.

It would be easy to familiarize himself with it. The changes are not significant and the info is available for free online. However, I do understand his reasoning because I have my own thing: as a default I don't allow material that does not exist in a physical form. It has to appear in a book, even if the group doesn't own it. Though for material that exists solely in an electronic format, I will consider them on a case by case basis and have only ever declined one thing.

[NaeNae]

Yes, it makes lots of sense. Still expansive as all hells. I don't understand how a Rogue can keep up in damage with any other class even more now.

I have prepared myself a tiefling alchemist for a future game. Comparing a lvl 1 alchemist to a lvl 1 rogue...
Rogue can deal 1d6+1d6 if she sneaks. She has to roll agqinst full AC of the target, unless she can remove the dex bonus with feint or some other way. End of the day, it's a 2-12, as a Dex based Rogue won't have much Str.
Alchemist I made can drop one bomb and deal 1d6+5 to the main target and a flat 6 to everyone in adjacent squares. Not to mention it is a ranged touch attack against lower AC.

Now on later levels, the rogue can boost herself with a +5 weapon, spending a bazillion gold pieces just to even herself out on base damage with the alchemist, while the alchemist just needs to level up to gain bonus dices. I don't even want to guess how much a +5 Rapier costs... 50k... Had to check... Bloody hell.

So as my Dex bonus does not conflict with my armor penalty, the best first buy would be a Masterwork Rapier which later should be pushed to a +1 Rapier?

[Chess Pwn]

NaeNae wrote:

Yes, it makes lots of sense. Still expansive as all hells. I don't understand how a Rogue can keep up in damage with any other class even more now.

And thus why it is viewed as such a bad classes comparatively to all others. And why core is worse than unchained cause at least the unchained got some buffs to help it a little in this.

NaeNae wrote:

So as my Dex bonus does not conflict with my armor penalty, the best first buy would be a Masterwork Rapier which later should be pushed to a +1 Rapier?

Yes.

[Azurespark]

NaeNae wrote:

I don't understand how a Rogue can keep up in damage with any other class even more now.

To put it simply, they don't. This is one of the reasons why people say the rogue is so bad and the weakest class in the entire game.

Well that might be a little harsh, it's possible, but would be incredibly difficult and require a very specific build. And honestly, the rogue has trouble just keeping up with the other classes, never mind excelling at anything.

[Tacticslion]

Yeah, that's what we, as a whole, were trying to get at: rogues lack most of the things that make the other classes function competently at various chosen jobs.

I love the idea of rogues, and even like the concept of the chassis they're built on.

In practice, that chassis doesn't live up to its potential.

[*Khan*]

Go multiclassing. Half elf can get two favored classes.
If you want to go the bomb direction - go for underground chemist archtype for your rogue. You are still level 1 correct? Underground chemist does first replace a class feature at level 2, so that should be okay.
Then multiclass into alchemist grenadier archtype.
Something like 4-5 levels underground chemist and the rest as grenadier

But bombs will get weaker once the arcane casters gets fireball etc.
A level 5 wizard could be able to throw 20ft. radius 8d6 fireballs (with spell specialization and mage's tatoo)

[Evan Pearce]

Yeah, this sounded a lot like my situation. I'm playing my first campaign, too. Except I've got a human rogue in my corner. Switched over to URogue, world of difference, but I was in the same boat to start with. I was a core rogue. Now I know, I've actually just finished reading this whole thread front-to-back, I inderstand your GM doesn't allow Unchained classes, which is a shame, but completely understandable and respectable. My character is more of a punk, he's a 2WF, which I know most of you guys in this thread are cringing at. And he's also (just as icing on the cake) maining dual wielding daggers. And has a Blinkback belt for helping out. Now, I'm not sure what your teammates are like, but to put it into perspective: there's Me, a Wizard, a Druid, a Barbarian NPC (which we play), and a Monk that plays about once a month. I'm level 7, soon to be 8, and we're doing just fine so far. And we're having a great time. And I love seeing that you have the same class I started with, and are completely different than me. I'm honestly so happy for you, and you're team. They're lucky to have you, and I'm sure you'll do just fine. You're planning way farther ahead than I did when I was your level. But I'll stick around thos thread. Offer any advice I can muster up. And for you pros, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still very new to this too

[Azurespark]

*Khan* wrote:

But bombs will get weaker once the arcane casters gets fireball etc.

A level 5 wizard could be able to throw 20ft. radius 8d6 fireballs (with spell specialization and mage's tatoo)

It's not that bombs get weaker, it's just that fireball can inflict a lot more damage. But a wizard has so many other things they could use that spell slot for, so they probably won't be throwing around too many fireballs. Then there is also meta magic you can add to the spell, or discoveries to modify your bombs.

[Tacticslion]

I really wish there were official "discovery" rods like there are metamagic rods...

[NaeNae]

My team is:

Meesa: lvl 2 Core Rogue, lil ol' Elana we spoke of.
A tor friend: lvl 2 evocation wizard, noobie like me.
A gm friend: lvl 2 antipaladin, I think he played it before, but does not seem veteran.
A gm friend 2: lvl 1 barbarian, recently joined, so can't say much about him, although he said he played a few campaigns already.

All in all... I'm the skill monkey for the team and the face, for now. I expect the team to fall appart soon, because there are already tensions between the LG wizard and CE antipaladin. Elana is LN and the barbarian is CE. Soon, something will happen that will force us to stand against each other and then it will be fun. Although I don't think Elana would dabble in the fight, unless there was something fkr her to gain from it.

Edit:
I'm happy about the additional melee character now, will be easier to flank and use bonus dices.

[Azurespark]

Let's hope there is no actual fighting in the party. Because if it became a 2 vs 2, well the antipaladin/barbarian would likely win.

[NaeNae]

Likely... But thankfully I am addicted to making new characters. I planned 4 more for myself and 3 more for my wizard friend. We have spares :D

And if it comes to fighting, Elana is clever enough to pick her fighting spot. She won't fight honourably.

[NaeNae]

I've talked my GM into using the U-Rogue for my next char, and so I've been tinkering with the class a bit. I designed a "path" I want to take, which is highly influenced by what you guys told me. But I am here to listen to your advice never the less.

Race: catfolk; mostly because I like the class bonus to feint attempts in combat; every two levels of investment it's a +1;

Racial traits: climber, the rest is basic catfolk;

Feats: Improved Initiative (1); Combat Expertise (3); Improved Feint (5);

Rogue Talents: Graceful Athlete (2); Distracting Attack (4);

Rogue Finesse: Rapier (3);

Traits: Crowd Dodger; Canopy Prowler;

Attribute Scores: S-8 D-17 C-10 I-14 W-12 C-16

Skills: I intend to keep Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Perception, Sleigh of Hand, Stealth and Use Magic Device maxed out as i level up; Climb, Swim, Appraise, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motiv will be secondary; the rest will be as I see fit; I don't really need to invest too much into Climb, as thanks to Class, Climber, Graceful Athlete and Canopy Prowler, I will have some free +16 bonus I belive;

Opinions? Please tell me I am learning ;-;

[Tacticslion]

Learning is part of the process. You're good. :)

[*Khan*]

You can still use rogue archtypes.
Check out:

Cat burglar Archtype.

Or

Scout Archtype.

These two both replace uncanny dodge so you can only choose one of them.

[NaeNae]

Combat Expertise + Gang Up = Ranged Rogue?

"Gang Up
You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent."

Add Point Blank Shot, Snap Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot? You can sacrifice early rogue talents for bonus feats. Would that work or am I over thinking it?

Edit:
It does not specify if you need to be melee or not, but I think it’s the case here...

[*Khan*]

NaeNae wrote:

Combat Expertise + Gang Up = Ranged Rogue?

"Gang Up
You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent

You can only get a flanking bonus on melee attacks, but you could use a reach weapon.

Flanking.

[Wultram]

NaeNae wrote:

I've talked my GM into using the U-Rogue for my next char, and so I've been tinkering with the class a bit. I designed a "path" I want to take, which is highly influenced by what you guys told me. But I am here to listen to your advice never the less.

Race: catfolk; mostly because I like the class bonus to feint attempts in combat; every two levels of investment it's a +1;

Racial traits: climber, the rest is basic catfolk;

Feats: Improved Initiative (1); Combat Expertise (3); Improved Feint (5);

Rogue Talents: Graceful Athlete (2); Distracting Attack (4);

Rogue Finesse: Rapier (3);

Traits: Crowd Dodger; Canopy Prowler;

Attribute Scores: S-8 D-17 C-10 I-14 W-12 C-16

Skills: I intend to keep Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Perception, Sleigh of Hand, Stealth and Use Magic Device maxed out as i level up; Climb, Swim, Appraise, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motiv will be secondary; the rest will be as I see fit; I don't really need to invest too much into Climb, as thanks to Class, Climber, Graceful Athlete and Canopy Prowler, I will have some free +16 bonus I belive;

Opinions? Please tell me I am learning ;-;

I would note that you do not need int 14, I would swap it with the constitution, because d8 class with light armor profiency needs all the extra hitpoints they can manage. Also helps with the poor fortitude save. Strength 8 can be a pretty annoying with weight of your gear. Though if you have a friendly caster in the party the spell Ant haul will take care of that.(and given it is a 1st level spell it isn't big investment on their part.)

[Deighton Thrane]

I'm going to parrot what Wultram said. A rogue with 10 con is often going to have less hit points than a wizard, especially if you're not taking hit points as your favored class bonus. Even if you're not planning on being a frontline character, it's nearly impossible to avoid taking damage from time to time while still being a useful character. I would consider dropping both Int and Cha 2 points, that would free up enough points for a 14 in Con, and could increase Str to 9, giving you a little extra carrying weight. You'll still have 2 floating skill points per level, and Cha really only affects your bluff score which shouldn't be a problem with +1/2 level from favored class bonus.

As for the rest, it's mostly good, though I would consider taking dirty fighting in lieu of combat expertise, unless you actually plan on using combat expertise in combat instead of just a pre-req. Also, distracting attack only makes the enemy flat-footed to a single ally, which is nice if you have another character with sneak attack in the party, or a high level monk with medusa's wrath, but if you don't have some way to take advantage of the flat-footed condition, trading sneak attack for a condition can be lackluster, since dead is the best condition you can give an enemy.

[NaeNae]

"Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.

Prerequisite: Int 13.(snip)"

That's why I picked 14 Int.

Catfolk racial is: +1/2 to Feint checks in combat and Sleight of Hand checks at all times.

Climber gives my a natural 20 feet climbing speed and the +8 to climbing checks. Canopy Prowler adds +1 to Climb and +1 to Stealth checks while climbing.

Graceful Athlete makes Climb and Swim be Dexterity based instead of Strength.

Rogue Finesse for Rapier is self explanatory.

Further development ideas/thoughts/we will see how things go...

Feats:
1. Dodge >> Mobility >> Spring Attack
2. Agile Manouvers >> Improved Dirty Trick >> Greater Dirty Trick
3. Critical Focus >> Blinding Critical >> Improved Critical

I guess it will vastly depend how our GM develops the campaign.

[Wultram]

Oh yeah sorry, I forgot about the most stupid prequisite in the game. In that case I would take some points away from charisma. Simply put Con 10 on anything that intends to be in melee is suicidal.

On the feats, some people disagree but spring attack tree is utter waste of feats. A single attack is not worth anything when multiple attacks start becoming thing. It is at best a minor annoyance. +1 AC is not worth a feat unless you get a lot of them. Mobility is semi useful but not with dodge as prequisite. Second and third sets are decent enough ideas.

[*Khan*]

You should look into a intimidate build. Weapon focus, Dazzling display and Shatter defences is only 3 feats to get sneak attack.

[NaeNae]

*Khan* wrote:

You should look into a intimidate build. Weapon focus, Dazzling display and Shatter defences is only 3 feats to get sneak attack.

I already make them flat footed with feint. And feint is better because they are considered such till the start of my next turn. For everyone.

[*Khan*]

Intimidate (demoralize) is generally superior to feint, as you dont need 13 int. as a prereq., The enemy can't get rid of the debuff condition with an action, And you can make builds which demoralize as a free action.
You need to find a way to feint as a free action or swift action. If not you will never get a full attack.
Read this guide on intimidate:
Intimidate Guide.

[NaeNae]

*Khan* wrote:

Intimidate (demoralize) is generally superior to feint, as you dont need 13 int. as a prereq., The enemy can't get rid of the debuff condition with an action, And you can make builds which demoralize as a free action.

You need to find a way to feint as a free action or swift action. If not you will never get a full attack.
Read this guide on intimidate:
Intimidate Guide.

Intimidate makes them Shaken, which lowers their Skills, Saves and Attack rolls by 2. How can it help me with AC negation? Unless I use two rounds in a row to push Shaken into Fear or what was the second step. It's great for Power Attacking, Strength based characters. I don't think I can do well with a Dazzling Display on my poor ass rogue.