I recently got into an online debate about which edition has more content: D&D v3.5, or Pathfinder.
The debate ended up getting simplified/generalized into which edition had the most books.
I for one believe Pathfinder has reached a point where it actually has more books than v3.5.
My evidence for this is the following: I used to own all of the hardback and paperback books for v3.5. They took up my entire bookshelf. Shortly after Pathfinder started, I sold all of my v3.5 books (relying on the PDFs if needed) and subscribed to Pathfinder. Now, after several years, my bookshelf is not only full again, but I'm needing to get a new bookshelf.
But I'm terrible at math, and worse at estimation.
Does anyone know for certain how many books each edition possesses? Does anyone have any empirical evidence as to which one has the most play content, which one covers the most themes/genres/etc?
I also sold all my 3.5 books but I'd guess Pathfinder wins on every account.
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My pathfinder books recently broke my bookshelf.
For the record, RD, your estimation method only determines which edition takes up the most space (i.e. volume). Since you're asking for which has the most books, recall that ye Olde Core Rulebook is thicker than its predecessors. When I compare my Pathfinder books to my 3.5 books, they're the same size give or take (some of the last 3.5 books seemed a bit thin though). Also, are you only looking at hardcovers, or all books?
Wouldn't more volume generally equate to more pages of content though? What's more, I think Pathfinder has more paperbacks, which means more of that volume is put towards pages of content, and not the covers themselves.
I'm looking at all non-3rd-party books. Hardcover and softcover. Anything that was printed as a hardcopy, with a front and back cover and pages in between them.
Other question is are you counting campaign setting books in 3.5? 'Cause if you don't count Ebberon and Faerun books, should you count Golarion books? Are adventures included?
Other question is are you counting campaign setting books in 3.5? 'Cause if you don't count Ebberon and Faerun books, should you count Golarion books? Are adventures included?
Ooh, I hadn't considered the Eberron and Faerun books (even though I was considering the Golarion books). That might tip the scales.
Adventure books and modules are definitely are included, as they (A) have covers and (B) have pages. What's more, they almost always contain content (everything from traps and monster to spells and magical items).
Not always, there are a million different minor changes that can be made to something that would effect the number of pages needed to print out. Font type and size, margin dimensions..
Alot wouldnt seem to matter but one or two more pages per print can make a huge difference over the amount you are talking about here.
I'm a graphic designer by trade, so I'm familiar with all of that, Yuri. I'm merely generalizing.
Before Pathfinder it would have been 3.5. Now definitely Pathfinder. Between the official and third party print/PDF material it's much more imo.
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Pathfinder's release schedule has consistently been just as aggressive as WotC during the 3.5 era and it's been a supported, active edition for significantly longer. Counting in all of the softcovers, Inner Sea books, adventure paths, etc., Pathfinder has a significantly larger library than 3.5.
3.5 book references (does not include campaign setting books)
Pathfinder Adventure Paths (6 books per AP)
That puts Pathfinder at a roughly 70 book lead before adding in their softcovers and 3.5's campaign books, and I guarantee there are more softcover Pathfinder releases than there are Forgotten Realms and Eberron books.
Let's see if we can get a better measure of content then literal bookshelf space. How about counting the number of published feats? That's something directly comparable.
According to WotC's feat index there are 3304 feats that were published for D&D 3.5. I don't know how complete a listing of products that entails, so if someone more knowledgeable about the published books of 3.5 could weigh in on that this would be helpful.
According to Paizo's feat index there are 1406 feats that were published for Pathfinder, but that does not include soft-cover books.
As a rough estimate, there are currently 79 player companion books available. Based on a sampling of my own collection, I found a low of 7 feats (Alchemy Manual) and a high of 42 feats (Weapon Master's Handbook). Most of the ones I sampled were in the 15-20 range, however. If we take an average of 17 feats per book that estimates the player companion line at about 1350 feats.
Other product lines, such as campaign setting, modules, and adventure paths sometimes include feats but usually do not. It's very hard to give a general estimate when there could be a dozen in a single product but most have none. Given the total number of published products, I would hazard a guess that the number of feats contained in them are in the 100-200 range, so let's just estimate 150 feats.
So taken together, with a bit of guess-work, I'd put the current Pathfinder feat total at around 2900 feats between all products. So on feat count Pathfinder is still behind 3.5, but it's pretty close to overtaking it. Give it another year or so.
Anyone want to do spells? That's another thing we can compare directly. Classes would be an interesting one, but it's more of an apples to oranges comparison due to Pathfinder having a larger focus on archetypes and 3.5 having a larger focus on prestige classes.
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Design Manager
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I notice that people are counting AP's as Pathfinder material. Doesn't that mean you have to count Dragon magazine and Dungeon Magazine? Admittedly it is diffused over editions, but still... I strongly suspect that would result in 3.0/3.5 being in a fairly commanding lead. Dungeon hit 221 issues and Dragon 427. Those, IIRC were 100 or so pages; even with all the ads, content had to reach something like AP levels (64 pgs, including some full page adds) and >>> player companions (32 pages, also including at least 1 full page add of coming soon...).
In that case we'd need to count issues of Wayfinder and Pathways towards Paizo as well. And all of their adventure modules like Dragon's Demand, Ruby Phoenix Tournament, Witchwar Legacy, Murder's Mark, so on and so forth.
I still maintain it's Pathfinder. Everyone seems to want to only include official material while ignoring 3PP. When one adds in 3pp it's the edition with most content.
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Up until recently, there was a pretty hard line (although often crossed willy-nilly in practice) between books with Golarion content, and books for Pathfinder. If you exclude the books specifically intended for the Forgotten Realms and Eberron (and that one book for Greyhawk, sob!), then you could also exclude the Chronicles stuff for Golarion, and the number gets a bit smaller.
Still, 3.5 had few, if any, softcovers, and didn't have a near-monthly release schedule or subscription-informed delivery model. I've got nearly everything 3.5 put out (not counting Eberron, of which I've got say, 75%, or the Realms, which, maybe 25%), and it squeezes into a couple of shelves, which it shares with some 3rd party stuff and Mutants & Masterminds stuff.
My Pathfinder stuff has devoured it's third shelf and is starting to squeeze out into a fourth, and I don't have most of the adventures or map packs, and have skipped a select book or two that I didn't want (and have multiple copies of a couple others, because I'm an idiot and forget what I have when I'm at the game store, so that probably evens out...).
Even the APs are chock full of non-AP related game content, like the gods articles and country / city breakdowns and articles on the Shoanti or Thassilon or whatnot, so it might be a mistake to dismiss them out of hand as well.
I did notice that 3.5 had more 'experimental' books that were never really followed up on, like Magic of Incarnum or the Tome of Magic or the Tome of 9 Swords, which, whether you liked them or not, were unlikely to ever be mentioned again.
Dragging third-party into it, gosh, there was a lot in 3.5, even before the heydays of online self-publishing. Mongoose Publishing, EN World, Malhavoc Press, Bastion, Green Ronin, Penumbra, and that's just stuff I can see from here without getting up. :)
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Design Manager
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[...]
I did notice that 3.5 had more 'experimental' books that were never really followed up on, like Magic of Incarnum or the Tome of Magic or the Tome of 9 Swords, which, whether you liked them or not, were unlikely to ever be mentioned again.
[...]
Off topic, but Magic of Incarnum actually got expansion material in Dragon Magic, Faiths of Eberron, a couple official web expansions, and at least one other book whose name I can't remember. I hear the Pathfinder version is pretty cool too... (I may have written it.)
If we just count 3.5 (not 3rd) and no 3rd party I think pathfinder has it. Right now I think my 3.5 stuff is taking up more space but that includes every 3.5 rules set book that came out practically. I guess you can't even count some of them as 3.5 dnd. SO yeah Money on pathfinder. as long as we don't lump the entire 3.5 rule set books together
Tomb of 9 swords was followed up on... it was called 4th edition :-)
I think you can't necessarily draw a hard line between 3.0 and 3.5 either as much 3.0 content was never republished. And to be fair, I was generally disappointed when it was republished as I ended up paying twice for something.
Yeah I'm glad I didn't really start buying them en masse' untill after 3.5 came out.
It's not my intention to include 3rd-party content (such as Dungeon or Dragon magazines) for the purposes of this discussion. We have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise, why not include things like homebrew created content as well? At some point, it simply becomes impossible to track everything (I'm sure there are plenty of 3rd-party products out there that few have even heard of).
If you want to attempt to do so anyways, it's not like I can do anything to stop you though. :P
I thought you meant 3pp as well. Then to me it's a toss up between 3.5 and Pathfinder as having the most content.
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3.5 also,had Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine. Dungeon alone was bigger than most soft covers for Pathfinder.
But Pathfinder has been runnning for ages now, and they pump out books at a ridiculous rate. If it's not winning yet, it soon will.
Probably just in time to release a second edition.
Edit - missed the post about not including the magazines. Oops. But those mags represented a very large part of my collection as the groups DM.
I'm pretty sure a search on the interwebs will probably find a list of all the stuff published for the two sets. Forgotten Realms had a huge amounts not of material produced for it.