They are all riders just like Vital Strike. It was you who said that the riders only apply to one attack. Mighty Strike allows the character to add Vital Strike to a standard attack, which is by definition a rider. If you have changed your mind and it is now only swift actions that add to only one attack then that is a different story.
So are you saying that Vital Strike is a special exception to all other riders in that, unlike the other riders, it affects more than one attack in a standard action because it doesn't take a swift action?
No they are not riders like vital strike. You aren't reading the abilities at all, or not understanding them.
Vital strike does not require a swift action to be applied, Cleave does not require a swift action to take the secondary attack. All of those things you listed state that you take a swift action to apply the feats effects. Neither VS, MS, or Cleave have that language.
You have, in one round, either: A full round action + swift +5foot step or a Standard, swift, and move (or some combination of double move etc). You can't take multiple swift actions in a round therefore the domain/hex/whatever strikes you listed off can only be applied to one attack since the feat requires the use of your single swift action in the round. The cleave/mighty strike Vital strike combination are different. Vital strike, the extra attack from cleave, and mighty strike ARE different because none of those things require the use of your swift action.
Without Mighty strike or another ability like it, vital strike is its own standard action.
Mighty strike allows the effects of vital strike to be applied in different circumstances. It is the specific rule that modifies the basic rules listed for vital strike.
Cleaves second attack is part of the same standard action because you don't "make an additional attack as a free action" or "make an additional attack as a swift action" Cleave is all one standard action that happens to contain multiple melee attacks.
BECAUSE cleave is all one action and not a free or swift action attack, the secondary attack fulfills the requirements for a mighty strike modified vital strike feat. It is a melee attack, it is performed as a standard action.
I'm not sure i can explain it more clearly than that. If a faq ends in cleave's second attack being separated from the standard action, OR if mighty strike gets "clarified/errata" so that it reads "when you make a single melee attack as a standard action, then it will work with your interpretation, but right now the language doesn't support it, like at all.
Ryan I do understand your argument and your reading of the rules, but I respectfully must disagree. I think your reading of the rules are plausible even, however precedent on how additional damage is generally applied to things like cleave weighs against that reading.
I'm a big Vital Strike fan so I hope they FAQ things in your favor, but I do doubt it.
if it only worked on a single attack it would make the ability pointless since normal vital strike normally works on only a single attack as is
How is being able to cleave after a Vital Strike pointless? There are a lot of strong standard action attacks that now get to be even stronger. Again, how is that pointless?
It is ok for us to agree to disagree on this.
if it only worked on a single attack it would make the ability pointless since normal vital strike normally works on only a single attack as is
That's not what bladelock is saying. He is saying that normally you can only Attack Action for vital strike. With the PRC you can now use it on any melee action standard action attack. But not other attacks the might come about from those attacks. So you can open your cleave attempt with IVS and if it hits get cleave but it doesn't let your Cleave hit get IVS damage.
why would i ever want to get the cleave feat if i know i wont be able to do what i want to do with it? cleave is a garbage trap feat unless you can combine it with an ability such as mighty strike and get vital strike on all the attacksif it only worked on a single attack it would make the ability pointless since normal vital strike normally works on only a single attack as isHow is being able to cleave after a Vital Strike pointless? There are a lot of strong standard action attacks that now get to be even stronger. Again, how is that pointless?
It is ok for us to agree to disagree on this.
Why is cleave garbage without Vital Strike but great with it?
Ryan I do understand your argument and your reading of the rules, but I respectfully must disagree. I think your reading of the rules are plausible even, however precedent on how additional damage is generally applied to things like cleave weighs against that reading.
I'm a big Vital Strike fan so I hope they FAQ things in your favor, but I do doubt it.
Find me a faq entry or rule or precedent that backs your position up then. Because thus far in nearly every discussion on this subject i'm the only one bringing up actual rules text and comparing it to past entries and CRB mechanics.
Its frustrating to do that and get the response of "Yyyyyyeah but i dont think it works that way" Thats a great opinion, but its not a very good discussion point, nor is it very convincing of an argument.
No one has offered any sort of actual rules backup as to why the additional cleave attack is not a melee attack taken as a standard action, no one has offered any rules justification as to why they interpret mighty strike as reading "whenever you make a single melee attack as a standard action".
So show me the precedent and bear in mind what vital strike is not.
It is not:
At all related to those feats where you swift action to do another thing
Precision damage
Specifically limited to once a round
Give me ANY precedent, or faq, or rules clarification or errata to back up the position that it doesn't work. Anything at all and i'll engage with that.
edit: and i'm just going to add, there is no such thing as a strong standard action attack. Vital strike is strictly worse than using your feats and class levels to build toward pounce. The standard action attack with other ability is a consolation prize as the abilities are either situational, or a buff similar to something any bard can do as a swift by the time you get it. Even deadly stroke is basically "at level 12 force a crit and maybe do an extra 10 to 15 damage if the targets con score isn't odd"
I never said or seen anyone say your opinion is great. Nor do I think that your quotes of the rules make more sense than the ones I quoted.
If you want to say you are quoting rules that prove your point. Show one that increases all the damage to a sequence of attacks like cleave or whirlwind and make no mention of lasting beyond the first attack in the description.
Its because Mighty strike does not specify single attack, and cleave does not assign any action type to the additional attack beyond the standard used to perform cleave, whereas as YOU demonstrated other feats DO assign action types to things that would otherwise be similar.
Even deadly stroke is basically "at level 12 force a crit and maybe do an extra 10 to 15 damage if the targets con score isn't odd"Even and odd don't matter in pathfinder. You always need an even amount of ability damage to have an effect, it does not actually reduce your total as it does in 3.5.
Which makes it worse as its now a 2 round wait for maybe 10 to 15 damage. Most things are dead by then.
Its because Mighty strike does not specify single attack, and cleave does not assign any action type to the additional attack beyond the standard used to perform cleave, whereas as YOU demonstrated other feats DO assign action types to things that would otherwise be similar.
Cleave is NOT the rider. Only YOU keep making that connection. It makes no sense.
With Mighty Strike Vital Strike is added on top of Cleave'
Just like the other riders I mentioned are added on top of other attacks.
The only difference is it takes no time to add Vital Strike while the other feats require a swift action. You also dodged my question.
I repeat.
"Show one [feat or ability] that increases all the damage to a sequence of attacks like cleave or whirlwind and makes no mention of lasting beyond the first attack in the description."
Its because Mighty strike does not specify single attack, and cleave does not assign any action type to the additional attack beyond the standard used to perform cleave, whereas as YOU demonstrated other feats DO assign action types to things that would otherwise be similar.Cleave is NOT the rider. Only YOU keep making that connection. It makes no sense.
With Mighty Strike Vital Strike is added on top of Cleave'
Just like the other riders I mentioned are added on top of other attacks.
The only difference is it takes no time to add Vital Strike while the other feats require a swift action. You also dodged my question.
I repeat.
"Show one [feat or ability] that increases all the damage to a sequence of attacks like cleave or whirlwind and makes no mention of lasting beyond the first attack in the description."
Bleeding attack applies itself to every unarmed attack in a sequence, if by some coincidence the target had a contingency to CLW when receiving bleed damage, bleeding attack would apply the bleed again.
Startoss style + chain uses the same wording but different conditions as VS/MS/Cleave
Bleeding Critical, Same wording, different conditions "Whenever you do X, then Y"
Cudgeler style: SPECIFIES it only applies to the first attack in a chain.
Flagbearer When you do X, gain benefit
Moonlight stalker, WHEN you have concealment, gain +2 damage
Nightmare fist, While in magical darkness do bonus damage to shaken people
Point blank shot, WHEN within 30 feet, gain bonus to hit and damage
Sap master, WHEN doing nonlethal damage with sneak attack, do bonus damage
So rather than continue to list out ALL the arguments as to how these feats use the same framing for their abilities and no one even questions whether you get sap master bonuses for every attack, and rather than point out all the older abilities and feats that use the term first attack or single attack when iteratives or bonus swings are involved, and rather than point out that the issue isn't when vital strike is applied and its requiring a swift action but that its CLEAVE and whether or not the secondary attack of cleave counts as a melee attack taken as a standard action that determines whether or not mighty strike takes effect for the umpteenth time. I'm going to hand you what is probably the strongest argument for it not working you'll find.
The FAQ on spirited charge + pounce. It is nowhere near an exact comparison of abilities, there are a few fiddly factors about who takes the charge action and RAI vs RAW. But as near as i can tell it is the closest thing to an official argument that can be made saying it wont work.
Then i'm going to point out that its old and settled and they said the primary reason for not including the language was that at the time it was printed they had no way to give pounce to someone doing spirited charge, but now they've both handled that question, are aware of those interactions and used exclusive language in rules other than the ones surrounding VS/MS/Cleave so it decreases the chance that a failure to include "Single melee attack" was simply an oversight, as its been done pretty consistently since then.
These examples are all over the place. Some of the examples (I admit to not looking at all) have broad conditions, that while being met, give a certain benefit. Others like Startoss don't support your assertion at all, it is closer to a counter to it.
Despite that I think I get what your point of view is that all attacks being made during a standard action are a condition like "while fighting in darkness." I disagree agree with this. No point in arguing further as we see this item differently.
What are the conditions of mighty strike then, if it isn't melee attack made as a standard action?
Its because Mighty strike does not specify single attack, and cleave does not assign any action type to the additional attack beyond the standard used to perform cleave, whereas as YOU demonstrated other feats DO assign action types to things that would otherwise be similar.First, your entire argument rests on the assumption that the ability as written isn't just poorly worded. As a GM I would rule its poorly worded and make it work like everything else, rather than try to jerry-rig the rest of the system around what is more likely to be a typo than a deeply considered balance decision.
Second your interpretation actually makes this ability two separate abilities:
Mighty Strike (Ex):
(1) At 6th level, a heritor knight gains Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike as bonus feats.
(1) Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action, she can apply the effects of Improved Vital Strike to that attack. If she has Greater Vital Strike, she can apply that feat’s effects instead.So either the ability is a bit loosely worded. Or its actually two abilities packed into one: the first gives you two bonus feats, and the second allows you to apply Vital Strike in a completely unique way.
As a GM I would rule (A) the splat book is poorly worded, and Might strike gives you two free feats, nothing more.
Third and finally if you REALLY, REALLY insist on a literal interpretation, the ability says :
"Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as a standard action"it does NOT say:
"Whenever the heritor knight makes a melee attack as PART OF a standard action"A partial charge is not a Melee Attack, a cleave attack is not a melee attack, a [XYZ ability] is not a melee attack. A melee attack is listed under standard combat actions:
"Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions....
Yes table variation is a perogative of gms, however poor they are at reading the english language, and people can willfully misinterpret the language out of a knee jerk reaction to tone down anything involving martial classes that might step on a spellcasters toes even slightly. These are things that can happen, but the author already chimed in on their intent for it to work with these abilities.
Also Make a melee attack as a standard action is not synonymous with take the attack action. Thats been established ages ago.
Edit: and yknow what, LEADING with the assumption that its "just poorly worded" is a pretty bad faith way to discuss things. Especially as again...author intent for the ability to work with the OTHER abilities offered by the prestige class has already been established (other abilities worded the same as things like cleave, deadly strike, double strike, etc etc). So there's literally no evidence that its actually poorly worded, other than a slew of people making up nonexistent action types for the cleave bonus attack, and subconsciously inserting the word single in a place it doesnt exist.
And you didn't actually counter any of my points. Another example:
Double Strike:
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make one attack with both your primary and secondary weapons (or with both ends of a double weapon).
These are all standard actions that allow you to attack with your weapons. They are not Melee Attacks taken as a Standard Action.
This is pedantic b@*%@@%# and you know it.
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.
As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.
At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally.
Hey look, all the other abilities under discussion are worded the same way!
I honest to god deny that there are balance implications to it. Its not as good as magic, it requires knowledge religion and a skill focus feat investment, doesn't come online until level 11, when mages are disintegrating and teleporting....
Its just that we're so used to martials/fighters in particular not doing anything but damage that when they develop a means to provide an effect at the cost of 2-4X their passive damage its a foreign feeling. They aren't going to outperform a spirited charge lancer, or an archer build in raw damage, what they'll do, at best, is enough damage plus provide a buff, or be able to keep cleave a relevant ability up until the mid levels rather than have it be the thing you see trained away at level 4 every fighter build that shows up.
And I've still not seen anyone define exactly what the additional attack from cleave is if not a standard action. I've seen a lot of denial that it is one but very little in explanation as to what it is or why mighty strike shouldnt affect it.
I feel it's more a triggered attack.
You make a cleave attack, it's a standard attack. If it missed the turn ends. So the second attack doesn't exist unless the first one hits. So really the first one is the standard action attack with an extra triggered attack upon hitting. To me that says only the first gets vital strike with this ability. It's the attack as a standard and everything past that isn't part of that standard attack action.
Then what is it? The faq on cleave makes it very clear that all the potential targeting and everything has to be handled and checked for legality all at once before the first attack is even made. That strongly implies every part of the cleave action is all one action. Its not a swift action or it would be called out, its not an AoO (which is the only type of non action attack that exists unless cleave is determined to hand out non action attacks) Its not a free action or it would be called out. Feats are really pretty consistent about naming action types. Free actions are core book too so if the free swing were a separate action it'd make the most design sense to phrase it as "make an additional attack as a free action". Itd be much the same result while not creating this ambiguous not an action attack.
Edit: the faq even comes right out and says
You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again.
cleave is literally just 1 attack if you hit the 1st target you have a chance to hit a nearby target there's no multiple attacks at allI feel it's more a triggered attack.
You make a cleave attack, it's a standard attack. If it missed the turn ends. So the second attack doesn't exist unless the first one hits. So really the first one is the standard action attack with an extra triggered attack upon hitting. To me that says only the first gets vital strike with this ability. It's the attack as a standard and everything past that isn't part of that standard attack action.
So your arguing that furious Focus would ignore the power attack penalty on all attacks granted by cleave/ great cleave. Since it's one attack?
I'll be honest, at the point that they look at the language of all the abilities involved and decide it doesn't work out of hand without changing the language of some ability somewhere, itl probably be the end of my spending money on paizo products. Paragraphs in multiple books go on about the need for GMs to be consistent about the rules, if design itself cant manage that, well....