Big Interview with Owen KC Stephens and Jason Keeley, lots of details. [Know Direction]


General Discussion

1 to 50 of 77 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey everyone,

We recently had Owen and Jason on the show to really dig in deep on what you need to know to get ready for Starfinder. Including some real crunchy details on:


  • Character Creation
  • Advancement
  • Combat
  • Differences between Starfinder and Pathfinder
  • and a lot more.

It gets really crunchy and elbows deep in details. We were really happy to have them on the show, and thought you all would want to see this one if you haven't.

Check it out here:

http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2017/07/know-direction-162-getting-ready-fo r-starfinder/


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just finished listening to it this morning. Great episode and I've encouraged my players to listen to it.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

All I can say so far is...thank goodness they're abandoning building monsters are characters.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
bugleyman wrote:
All I can say so far is...thank goodness they're abandoning building monsters are characters.

Sigh...that is one thing I liked asbout Pathfinder. Sigh...why am I seeing a lot of mistakes(well from my point of view) that 4th ed made...

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

1 person marked this as a favorite.
John Kretzer wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
All I can say so far is...thank goodness they're abandoning building monsters are characters.
Sigh...that is one thing I liked asbout Pathfinder.

Just as a note -- monsters are easily converted from Pathfinder to Starfinder. If you prefer that method, make Pathfinder monsters, then convert them. If you were adept as Pathfinder monster creation, it's barely any extra work.

Now obviously that's imperfect for people that prefer that system, and I am sorry for that. Someday Starfinder may have space for a second official monster creation system, but the first few books aren't that place. Until then, I remain convinced that for most people this will be faster and more satisfying overall, even wheel I know there are people who will dislike it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Um wait, so are monsters harder to advance in Starfinder or something? Not really sure what "they're abandoning building monsters are characters." means.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Monster and npc creation in starfinder is based on the quick monster creation rules in pathfinder unchained.

Paizo Employee Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.

They are actually much easier to advance in Starfinder.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
They are actually much easier to advance in Starfinder.

Excellent.

It never made any sense to me to apply a bunch rules designed for characters to monster design. Frankly, it felt like a particularly misguided attempt at simulation by third edition D&D. I was happy when fourth edition dropped it, and I'm happy now that Starfinder is doing the same.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*

Well, you can check them out on the PRD, if you are curious.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Um wait, so are monsters harder to advance in Starfinder or something? Not really sure what "they're abandoning building monsters are characters." means.

More a reference to the initial monster design...though it applies to advancement as well. Basically, the idea is not to apply a system designed for one purpose (build characters) to different purpose (build monsters).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*
Well, you can check them out on the PRD, if you are curious.

Thankies!

*skims*

Eh, not sure I'm a fan, it looks like they're just saying make stuff up.

Sovereign Court

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yes, but it is making stuff up with *rules*.

... that's pretty much all RPGs, actually.


Rysky wrote:

*skims*

Eh, not sure I'm a fan, it looks like they're just saying make stuff up.

To each their own, I guess. Personally, I despise things like counting skill ranks for monsters, especially since half the time they end up hand-waving them anyway as a "racial bonus."

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Um wait, so are monsters harder to advance in Starfinder or something? Not really sure what "they're abandoning building monsters are characters." means.
More a reference to the initial monster design...though it applies to advancement as well. Basically, the idea is not to apply a system designed for one purpose (build characters) to different purpose (build monsters).

*tilts head*

Having designed monsters before I can say it is definitely a different beast than designing characters unless you're applying class levels to the monsters so I don't know what to make of that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Having designed monsters before I can say it is definitely a different beast than designing characters unless you're applying class levels to the monsters so I don't know what to make of that.

Making sure a monster's skills add up "correctly," or that they have the "right" number of feats for their hit dice. That sort of thing. It's a whole lot of work that, for me at least, does not translate to a better experience.


KingOfAnything wrote:

Yes, but it is making stuff up with *rules*.

... that's pretty much all RPGs, actually.

Pretty much! :)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Does this podcast do transcripts? I really don't care for podcasts or sitting and listening to people talk, but I'll read a transcript of an interview.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:

Yes, but it is making stuff up with *rules*.

... that's pretty much all RPGs, actually.

Yes, but the Unchained rules you linked didn't really seem big on the "rules" part.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Did you follow any of the links? That was only the index...

It's way too much for a single webpage to be comprehensible.

Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, etc..


I still can't believe no-one made a program for the simple monster creation rules. That would make monster creation ludicrously fast to do. Certain monsters would take less than a minute to create.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:

Did you follow any of the links? That was only the index...

It's way too much for a single webpage to be comprehensible.

Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, etc..

*nods*

I did say I skimmed it (including the linked steps) so on a more thorough read through it might look more favorable to me.


Rysky wrote:
I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*

There's a reason for that. They're pretty terrible, basically coming down to a bunch of too-short lists of too-specific abilities with little to no guidance on how to apply them, that produce monsters with fluff and numbers completely disconnected from their actual stats (it's entirely possible output a giant monster with 10 Str and 10 Dex that swings for 2d6+30 damage and sneaks like an invisible stalker, for instance). They got little to no interest or play after release.

If the Starfinder system is going to turn out well, it's going to have to be a complete overhaul that tosses out most of the assumptions from that system. So... not based on it at all.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd be very interested to know what concept you were going for and how you managed that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Aratrok wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*

There's a reason for that. They're pretty terrible, basically coming down to a bunch of too-short lists of too-specific abilities with little to no guidance on how to apply them, that produce monsters with fluff and numbers completely disconnected from their actual stats (it's entirely possible output a giant monster with 10 Str and 10 Dex that swings for 2d6+30 damage and sneaks like an invisible stalker, for instance). They got little to no interest or play after release.

If the Starfinder system is going to turn out well, it's going to have to be a complete overhaul that tosses out most of the assumptions from that system. So... not based on it at all.

It's entirely possible to have a CR 18 Expert or a Wizard with Power Attack, too.


Gorbacz wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I'm not familiar with those rules so *shrugs*

There's a reason for that. They're pretty terrible, basically coming down to a bunch of too-short lists of too-specific abilities with little to no guidance on how to apply them, that produce monsters with fluff and numbers completely disconnected from their actual stats (it's entirely possible output a giant monster with 10 Str and 10 Dex that swings for 2d6+30 damage and sneaks like an invisible stalker, for instance). They got little to no interest or play after release.

If the Starfinder system is going to turn out well, it's going to have to be a complete overhaul that tosses out most of the assumptions from that system. So... not based on it at all.

It's entirely possible to have a CR 18 Expert or a Wizard with Power Attack, too.

Well yes, you can do that, but it's not what the system is designed for.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
All I can say so far is...thank goodness they're abandoning building monsters are characters.
Sigh...that is one thing I liked asbout Pathfinder.

Just as a note -- monsters are easily converted from Pathfinder to Starfinder. If you prefer that method, make Pathfinder monsters, then convert them. If you were adept as Pathfinder monster creation, it's barely any extra work.

Now obviously that's imperfect for people that prefer that system, and I am sorry for that. Someday Starfinder may have space for a second official monster creation system, but the first few books aren't that place. Until then, I remain convinced that for most people this will be faster and more satisfying overall, even wheel I know there are people who will dislike it.

You see this as always been my issue with this system...my favorite thing to do as a GM is to put up character class levels on to creatures and to have NPCs built on a equal level as any other character. It is fun for me run...and give my players a actual challenge. This is very hard to do in a system that treat PCs differently from NPCs.

Also it means that PC focused source books are less useful for GMs.

Anyone I really should wait to read the book....before judging things....just a lot of the talk does raise concerns in me.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If you WANT to build NPCs by taking the PC version of a race and slapping class levels on it, nothing stops you.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
If you WANT to build NPCs by taking the PC version of a race and slapping class levels on it, nothing stops you.

Although given what has been revealed about the design, that wouldn't work particularly well, would it? It seems like the fight would go on for a very long time indeed.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm firmly on the side the system NOT building monsters with PC rules -- but I think it's fair to say that his concern has merit given his stated preferences.

Paizo Employee Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

You could probably still build it that way and then make some simple tweaks of lowering KAC/EAC, raising accuracy, etc and be in great shape.

Of course, my group was skeptical of the idea of building NPCs differently too, but I used the Starfinder system without telling them and they couldn't actually tell I did until I revealed it; the classed NPCs felt like PCs to them, down to the operative PC warning the rest of the party what to fear from a fellow operative and how to beat one and being correct.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:

You could probably still build it that way and then make some simple tweaks of lowering KAC/EAC, raising accuracy, etc and be in great shape.

Of course, my group was skeptical of the idea of building NPCs differently too, but I used the Starfinder system without telling them and they couldn't actually tell I did until I revealed it; the classed NPCs felt like PCs to them, down to the operative PC warning the rest of the party what to fear from a fellow operative and how to beat one and being correct.

"Ah, crap, looks like one of AbadarCorp's 'Debt Collectors.' Alright everyone, here's what to expect..."

EDIT: Note to self - make Priest Operative.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

As someone who started on 3.5, played a bunch of Pathfinder, then moved on to years of Savage Worlds, I adore this simplification. One of the main reasons I won't run Pathfinder is just how finicky the system is. I'm bad at focusing, and prefer broad strokes. Pathfinder wasn't the worst about this, but prep took too long and changing stuff on the fly wasn't as seemless as it could have been. (Eclipse Phase left me wiping sleep from my eyes. Love that setting, but I had to listen to the books rather than read them, just to stay awake.)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I, for one, am glad that Paizo doesn't need to invent "monster-only" feats just to fill up an arbitrary number of feat slots for one-off enemies who will likely not live long enough to use them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

ack.. never know when know direction is coming on..


bugleyman wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Having designed monsters before I can say it is definitely a different beast than designing characters unless you're applying class levels to the monsters so I don't know what to make of that.
Making sure a monster's skills add up "correctly," or that they have the "right" number of feats for their hit dice. That sort of thing. It's a whole lot of work that, for me at least, does not translate to a better experience.

It's doesn't really matter if the numbers are not spot on, so long as you end up with something that works for the encounter. The players wouldn't normally see the exact stats of the monster they are fighting, and there is no one checking up on you.

Hell, I've changed the stats of a monster on the fly in order to make a battle more interesting, and the players where none the wiser.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
bugleyman wrote:
All I can say so far is...thank goodness they're abandoning building monsters are characters.

Agreed. I can't help but feel like a lot of monster manual/bestiary critters ended up with overinflated Str/Con scores to "keep up" with expected HP and damage output. This lead to bloated CMB/CMD values and fort saves, making entire categories of spells and especially combat maneuvers worthless.

Hopefully we'll see a lot less things functionally immune to trip/grapple in SF as a result.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
ack.. never know when know direction is coming on..

We're live every other Wednesday at 8:30 p.m. EST / 5:30 p.m. PST. :) We post it on our facebook page and our home page as soon as we confirm the guests that week.

We're not doing a show tomorrow, but will be doing a show the week after.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So... what are the details?


Wikrin wrote:
As someone who started on 3.5, played a bunch of Pathfinder, then moved on to years of Savage Worlds, I adore this simplification. One of the main reasons I won't run Pathfinder is just how finicky the system is.

I love me some Savage Worlds. ;-)


Perram wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
ack.. never know when know direction is coming on..

We're live every other Wednesday at 8:30 p.m. EST / 5:30 p.m. PST. :) We post it on our facebook page and our home page as soon as we confirm the guests that week.

We're not doing a show tomorrow, but will be doing a show the week after.

I always see the articles for code switch and the like but live broadcast tommorow" or the like never shows.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Perram wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
ack.. never know when know direction is coming on..

We're live every other Wednesday at 8:30 p.m. EST / 5:30 p.m. PST. :) We post it on our facebook page and our home page as soon as we confirm the guests that week.

We're not doing a show tomorrow, but will be doing a show the week after.

I always see the articles for code switch and the like but live broadcast tommorow" or the like never shows.

Sounds like facebook's algorithm getting uppity again. I'll have to look into that. But the recordings are usually available a day or two after the live show finishes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

i might give it another listen tomorrow.


So I watched the video of this when it was uploaded, and one of the biggest things I was listening for was how Hit Point and Resolve points increase for characters. Was that not asked or did I miss it? I am just curious if it is the Race HP+ Class HP each level, or does it only go up by the class HP?


Cuttlefist wrote:
So I watched the video of this when it was uploaded, and one of the biggest things I was listening for was how Hit Point and Resolve points increase for characters. Was that not asked or did I miss it? I am just curious if it is the Race HP+ Class HP each level, or does it only go up by the class HP?

Pretty sure race HP only applies once from what I remember hearing (and that's what the maths on the Paizocon pregens shows).


IonutRO wrote:
Pretty sure race HP only applies once from what I remember hearing (and that's what the maths on the Paizocon pregens shows).

Ok cool, I can dig that.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Terrific new co-host, Ryan!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
If you WANT to build NPCs by taking the PC version of a race and slapping class levels on it, nothing stops you.

Except no, as it's been said before, you can't. You wouldn't have something that belongs on Team Monster, you'd have something that belongs on Team Player. We've already been told about how the math for each side is supposed to be significantly different now, instead of both sides playing with the same rules as they do in d20.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

The math being different is about the best play experience. You can still do it, they just won't produce the same type of conflict. It'll likely take longer, but the outcome will be very similar.


I strongly feel that building BBEGs using the character creation rules will be highly effective as PCs are generally tougher than similarly leveled monsters thanks to the new monster rules. Since its probably a boss fight you can even slap some higher level gear on there both for loot and to make the boss hit harder.

1 to 50 of 77 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / Big Interview with Owen KC Stephens and Jason Keeley, lots of details. [Know Direction] All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.