It sounds like the aim was for less lethal PVP. If you have a PC rules boss, they will be hard to hit and inaccurate.
It sounds like the aim was for less lethal PVP. If you have a PC rules boss, they will be hard to hit and inaccurate.Is PVP a consideration Pathfinder design? Tabletop RPGs are pretty much the Platonic ideal of PVE gameplay, no?
In a world where Charm and Dominate exist, it is a consideration, even if a minor one.
I'm guessing that it's specifically because of charm and domination that the pc math is changing. In Pathfinder, if the barbarian is dominated it's usually a TPK. In starfinder that's much less likely to happen.
Summoned creatures being useful at later levels was another example given.. though I don't know if Starfinder has any.
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I'm guessing that it's specifically because of charm and domination that the pc math is changing. In Pathfinder, if the barbarian is dominated it's usually a TPK. In starfinder that's much less likely to happen.Summoned creatures being useful at later levels was another example given.. though I don't know if Starfinder has any.
Here's a relevant quote from Mark Seifter in another thread, explaining why PCs have higher AC and lower to-hit (and monsters vice-versa) than Pathfinder:
So why is this really useful? And how does it help gameplay compared to the way it worked in Pathfinder? Two big reasons: First and more importantly is mind-controlled PCs. If a PC DPR character gets mind-controlled in Pathfinder, unless someone can remove it, chances are another PC is annihilated that same round. In Starfinder, if you get mind-controlled, your accuracy against your buddies is going to be worse than it was against the monsters, so your buddies are much safer (this is also why people who tried to math out Obo's chance to hit herself ran into problems compared to when they mathed out Obo vs a troll). The other is PC minions: In Pathfinder summoning, for instance, summoning was generally extraordinarily powerful for weird utility summons or if you had a ton of ways to buff the creature, but otherwise you eventually started to reach the point at higher level where your summon (if not used for utility or spells) just couldn't hit and was mostly a meat distraction, taking up a lot of space but the monsters wouldn't even bother with them. But if your minions have higher accuracy and lower defense than a PC of their level, that makes them much more interesting: They can actually hit and damage their up-leveled foes (who also have lower AC) but are easy to take out and thus a foe might consider taking them out (which also serves the minion controller's ends nicely by diverting threat from the PCs to the minions). Note that this is more about expendable minions than about a major companion like the drone that has numbers more in the shape of a PC's.
We actually had that particular issue of Mind Control come up in our last campaign so while I understand why people might be disappointed about the rules differences between NPCs and PCs, I think not having your fellow PCs instantly turn you into paste is a good enough trade off!
Here's a relevant quote from Mark Seifter in another thread, explaining why PCs have higher AC and lower to-hit (and monsters vice-versa) than Pathfinder:I'm guessing that it's specifically because of charm and domination that the pc math is changing. In Pathfinder, if the barbarian is dominated it's usually a TPK. In starfinder that's much less likely to happen.Summoned creatures being useful at later levels was another example given.. though I don't know if Starfinder has any.
That's the one I was referencing, thanks for posting it here.
Its also interesting in that it may alter the optimal save paradigm. In Pathfinder the order of save importance is Will > Fort > Reflex, as the meme is a good reflex save prevents some damage, a good fort save prevents your death, a good will save prevents your party's death. Shifting the math to make dominates less deadly shifts things around so having that high will save is less important for martial especially.
I think you may be on to something there - fun fact, six of the seven core classes have good will saves (all but the mechanic).
Its also interesting in that it may alter the optimal save paradigm. In Pathfinder the order of save importance is Will > Fort > Reflex, as the meme is a good reflex save prevents some damage, a good fort save prevents your death, a good will save prevents your party's death. Shifting the math to make dominates less deadly shifts things around so having that high will save is less important for martial especially.
It seems weird then that the martials gets good Will
In fact, Will seems to be on every class except the mechanic.
Envoy---------Good Will and Reflex
Mechanic------Good Reflex and Fortitude
Mystic--------Good Will
Operative-----Good Will and Reflex
Solarion------Good Will and Fortitude
Soldier-------Good Will and Fortitude
Technomancer--Good Will
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I still think the Soldier should have been Fortitude and Reflex. Any Soldier worth his space-salt knows how to duck and cover.Its also interesting in that it may alter the optimal save paradigm. In Pathfinder the order of save importance is Will > Fort > Reflex, as the meme is a good reflex save prevents some damage, a good fort save prevents your death, a good will save prevents your party's death. Shifting the math to make dominates less deadly shifts things around so having that high will save is less important for martial especially.It seems weird then that the martials gets good Will
In fact, Will seems to be on every class except the mechanic.
Envoy---------Good Will and Reflex
Mechanic------Good Reflex and Fortitude
Mystic--------Good Will
Operative-----Good Will and Reflex
Solarion------Good Will and Fortitude
Soldier-------Good Will and Fortitude
Technomancer--Good Will
When you have power armor, it's less about avoiding hits and more about absorbing them.
I found thedefault point buy interesting, 10 in everything, racial mods, and then ten points for one to one distribution.
Don't forget the mod from your theme and a more generous stat advance every 5th level.
I wouldn't really call it weird. If Will is less important than the design cost of including a good Will save in a class is less.
That doesn't make much sense from a design perspective, though. That suggests the mechanic has the best saves, spellcasters have intentionally bad saves (above and beyond just having a single good save), and the other classes are just average. Or to put it numerically, 2, 1.5 and 0.5 respectively.
The bad saves are already putting me off the caster classes to some degree. If Will is also something that doesn't matter... that's a huge defensive disadvantage.
I wouldn't really call it weird. If Will is less important than the design cost of including a good Will save in a class is less.That doesn't make much sense from a design perspective, though. That suggests the mechanic has the best saves, spellcasters have intentionally bad saves (above and beyond just having a single good save), and the other classes are just average. Or to put it numerically, 2, 1.5 and 0.5 respectively.
The bad saves are already putting me off the caster classes to some degree. If Will is also something that doesn't matter... that's a huge defensive disadvantage.
It is not unlikely that while more classes will have good will saves, there may very well be many more creatures with abilities requiring will saves. All the while, several things that once required fortitude saves likely no longer pose a threat. Contact and airborne poisons and diseases, severe heat/cold, subversion in water, etc.