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So if I have an item from a book, then a new book come out with and updated version of the item but is not on the additional resources yet, do I get to use the item before the update or do I have to use the updated version?
Also not sure if I overlooked this or where it would state something about items changes...
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Not really... just clarification.
I’m still waiting for updates to the additional resources for a character build. I really hate how I have to wait 3 months after a book is released to see if something is legal. Also I’m not to happy that if the Lore Warden from the PFS Guide is not legal that I have to buy a book I have no interest in buying. I don’t understand why I am having to pay $40 for a book that is mostly updated archetypes feats and etc... why not just make them errata or put another name to the archetypes/feats. Paizo’s model is turning me away from thief material, seeing is 95% is Society based.
So with feats that’s a potential contradiction...
If a feat changes you have 2 options... change for the newer updated version... or change it for something else. Based on what you stated if the feat is legal in both sources, then I can use either... this should definitely be clarified if the guide...
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John Compton clarified recently that you do not need to purchase a new book to use an option you've been utilizing from an older source.
However, depending on how the Additional Resources gets ruled, you may have to use the updated text.
For now we just need to have patience. They know we want updates, and they're working as best they can to get them to us.
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Fencing Grace has a campaign clarification, which I believe makes the text in Advanced Class Origins match the newer source.
Advanced Class Origins
Page 27—Add the following text to the end of the first paragraph of the Fencing Grace feat. "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
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John Compton clarified recently that you do not need to purchase a new book to use an option you've been utilizing from an older source.
However, depending on how the Additional Resources gets ruled, you may have to use the updated text.
For now we just need to have patience. They know we want updates, and they're working as best they can to get them to us.
That is not what he said. He was very specific.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
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To be fair I didn’t even know the campaign clarifications existed. Now I’ll have to go read that and make sure things are all good.
Also the only issue I have is that how am I supposed to actually see what they do? There’s not a good place to see the updated version. D20 has so many errors, I avoid it. Then if that only applies to the Adventurers guide you have to know what’s in the book or go through all archetypes to see if they are in that book etc... the additional resources doesn’t always list all items so this really only works if you have access to the book. Not trying to argue but still seems a bit off.
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To be fair I didn’t even know the campaign clarifications existed. Now I’ll have to go read that and make sure things are all good.
Also the only issue I have is that how am I supposed to actually see what they do? There’s not a good place to see the updated version. D20 has so many errors, I avoid it. Then if that only applies to the Adventurers guide you have to know what’s in the book or go through all archetypes to see if they are in that book etc... the additional resources doesn’t always list all items so this really only works if you have access to the book. Not trying to argue but still seems a bit off.
The base assumption is that if one is looking at the additional resources they have the additional resource available, so it's a simple glance at the location noted in the AR/CC, as one should pay it no mind if they do not have the additional resource.
Archives of Nethys is pretty decent.
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John Compton clarified recently that you do not need to purchase a new book to use an option you've been utilizing from an older source.That is not what he said. He was very specific.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes.
Fixed that for you.
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It is all made in the context of additional resources for Adventurer's Guide.
He didn't say: "Should the Additional Resources require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had."
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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The "Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide" is the update to the Additional Resources that includes the Adventurer's Guide.
It's the same thing as Fencing Grace, just on a much larger scale. You don't need to own Ultimate Intrigue to use the feat, and you won't need to own the Adventurer's Guide to use the Lore Warden.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes.
Notice the parallel construction.
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Second sentence. The one nefreet bolded? That sentence is a broad policy statement, and its phrasing makes no sense if it was only supposed to apply to the Adventurer's Guide. Given the significant complaints that occur every time they stealth errata some option by reprinting it, a policy of "You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had" solves serious concerns about bait and switch that were getting leveled at Paizo. It undermines the reason we need to have and bring those resources in PFS, and its questionable how that policy would work in practice because of those reasons, but it makes quite a bit of sense in the "don't be a dick" arena
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Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
So for something such as the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade where it says
"Prestige Class: The Lion Blade version in this book is no longer legal after June 10, 2016. The version found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue must be used."
Are you saying I can not own Inner Sea Intrigue but own the original resource? How do I know when something is a Pact Wizard (Familiar folio) and not a Pact Wizard (haunted heroes handbook)?
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Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
So for something such as the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade where it says
"Prestige Class: The Lion Blade version in this book is no longer legal after June 10, 2016. The version found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue must be used."Are you saying I can not own Inner Sea Intrigue but own the original resource? How do I know when something is a Pact Wizard (Familiar folio) and not a Pact Wizard (haunted heroes handbook)?
The fact that those are two completely different archetypes that have nothign to do with each other. Also the Haunted Heroes Handbook archetype is banned in PFS, is it not?
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The fact that those are two completely different archetypes that have nothign to do with each other. Also the Haunted Heroes Handbook archetype is banned in PFS, is it not?Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
So for something such as the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade where it says
"Prestige Class: The Lion Blade version in this book is no longer legal after June 10, 2016. The version found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue must be used."Are you saying I can not own Inner Sea Intrigue but own the original resource? How do I know when something is a Pact Wizard (Familiar folio) and not a Pact Wizard (haunted heroes handbook)?
The old lore warden potentially will also be banned. If you don't like the example feel free to help me with understanding the Lion Blade example.
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The old lore warden potentially will also be banned. If you don't like the example feel free to help me with understanding the Lion Blade example.The fact that those are two completely different archetypes that have nothign to do with each other. Also the Haunted Heroes Handbook archetype is banned in PFS, is it not?Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
So for something such as the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade where it says
"Prestige Class: The Lion Blade version in this book is no longer legal after June 10, 2016. The version found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue must be used."Are you saying I can not own Inner Sea Intrigue but own the original resource? How do I know when something is a Pact Wizard (Familiar folio) and not a Pact Wizard (haunted heroes handbook)?
What about it?
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Older *versions* may become illegal. That's been the case for a number of options. But they were legal at one point, and people in good faith purchased those sources then and used those options.
They don't get punished for doing things the right way when those options change in a new source. That's outside of their control. They update (or sometimes grandfather) them and move on. That they can do.
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What about it?The old lore warden potentially will also be banned. If you don't like the example feel free to help me with understanding the Lion Blade example.The fact that those are two completely different archetypes that have nothign to do with each other. Also the Haunted Heroes Handbook archetype is banned in PFS, is it not?Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
So for something such as the Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade where it says
"Prestige Class: The Lion Blade version in this book is no longer legal after June 10, 2016. The version found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue must be used."Are you saying I can not own Inner Sea Intrigue but own the original resource? How do I know when something is a Pact Wizard (Familiar folio) and not a Pact Wizard (haunted heroes handbook)?
The Taldor, Echoes of Glory Lion Blade isn't legal for play anymore and you must use the Inner Sea Intrigue version. Can I only own Taldor and still play the currently legal Lion Blade?
I have never heard anything to suggest I could but I'm open to discussion.
Older *versions* may become illegal. That's been the case for a number of options. But they were legal at one point, and people in good faith purchased those sources then and used those options.
They don't get punished for doing things the right way when those options change in a new source. They update (or sometimes grandfather) them and move on.
Is this a yes you can use Taldor as a resource?
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But then how do I use my old book as a resource? It isn't going to be errataed and the other one won't be on the PRD because it is a campaign setting book. Can Archives of Nethys count as a valid source of the new Lion Blade if I own Taldor?
There's a lot of weird issues with this interpretation that I feel would be aided by more insight from the PFS dev team.
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That's the least important issue, really. People usually know what changed about their options.
The important detail, as John pointed out, is that you do not need to purchase the newer source.
That supercedes whatever concern you have about the differences of the two versions.
Someone could have them scribbled on a napkin, for all I care as a GM.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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To use an option in the Additional resources, you need to meet two requirements.
1. Own a book that allows access to that character option.
2. Have a copy of the rules available for your GM to read.
Owning Taldor satisfies #1. Archives of Nethys is the best you can do for #2, unless you have a friend that will make a copy or print the pages for you.
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^ that.
I doubt Campaign Leadership will officially confirm point #2, because that would be endorsing an outside-of-Paizo entity.
I see point #2 as an extension of the honor system. That player already suffered inconvenience after doing things the right way.
They shouldn't have to be questioned further in continuing that practice.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You have never needed to purchase a new source to use an older version.
Never.
He was reiterating that fact in his statement, using the Adventurer's Guide as an example.
With respect, that's not the case. During the reign of a previous campaign leadership, the details of the Hellknight prestige class changed significantly. At the time, I was working with a friend who was down on his luck and did not have the money to spare, to buy the new resource.
When I brought this to the attention of the boards, the campaign leadership was generous enough to offer to use personal funds to buy my friend a copy of the PDF of the new version.
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With respect, that's not the case. During the reign of a previous campaign leadership, the details of the Hellknight prestige class changed significantly. At the time, I was working with a friend who was down on his luck and did not have the money to spare, to buy the new resource.When I brought this to the attention of the boards, the campaign leadership was generous enough to offer to use personal funds to buy my friend a copy of the PDF of the new version.
So we may all expect this largesse going forwards?
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More importantly what is the current leadership's statement on that.
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You have never needed to purchase a new source to use an older version.
Never.
He was reiterating that fact in his statement, using the Adventurer's Guide as an example.
With respect, that's not the case. During the reign of a previous campaign leadership, the details of the Hellknight prestige class changed significantly. At the time, I was working with a friend who was down on his luck and did not have the money to spare, to buy the new resource.
When I brought this to the attention of the boards, the campaign leadership was generous enough to offer to use personal funds to buy my friend a copy of the PDF of the new version.
Was this instance a misinterpretation, similar to what's being discussed in this thread?
Or was there ever a stated policy that you had to purchase the newer source?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Nefreet, here's the quote in question, from March 2011:
We want all PFS players to be using the same, current rules for their characters, including things that sometimes get updated. We chose to make the standard, baseline Hellknight the version that is printed in our core, hardcover setting book over a support article in a two-year-old Adventure Path volume.
All your friend needs in order to make the conversion is a printout of the two pages from the pdf to bring to the table; he does not need to have a physical copy of the book nor a printout of the entire pdf.
The thread specified that he would indeed need to buy the $9.99 PDF to be legal in a PFS game, but could use a copy of the new rules for a home game environment.
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It is always safest to be conservative, indeed, including temporarily shelving a character until whatever conflict gets resolved (*looks longingly at the Ninja Scout gathering dust on his bookshelf*), but given that was a narrow ruling from two Campaign Coordinators ago, and the current ruling seems more broad, I would think this would be safe.
I just don't think we'll ever have an official statement of what to do in the case of a player not owning the newer source, but who's able to provide a printout from a third party.
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To use an option in the Additional resources, you need to meet two requirements.
1. Own a book that allows access to that character option.
2. Have a copy of the rules available for your GM to read.Owning Taldor satisfies #1. Archives of Nethys is the best you can do for #2, unless you have a friend that will make a copy or print the pages for you.
So, for clarity, as long as I "own" the book that allows access, bringing an illegally acquired PDF or a book owned by another player would satisfy the requirements having a copy available for my GM?!?!?!
I really doubt these requirements are meant to be read like this. I've been told that our group can't just start a library of Pathfinder books and share them with the group, and this certainly seems like a loophole on that. I'd be happy to be wrong here, of course.
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Given the significant complaints that occur every time they stealth errata some option by reprinting it, a policy of "You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had" solves serious concerns about bait and switch that were getting leveled at Paizo.
Not at all - they are still switching something that they advertised to something that we didn't buy.
Not saying the clarification isn't appreciated - it's just not an answer to the bait and switch issue.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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There have been a few rare cases where old sources for things were definitively phased out. The Lion Blade is an example; so is the Living Monolith and some of the old elven specialty arrows. The common thread was that those strongly drew on 3.5 rules which required significant patching. When a fully PF version appeared the switch made sense.
The other big example is the Unchained Summoner: to rebuild your Chained Summoner into an Unchained one you needed a new book. But the Unchained Summoner entry in Unchained is 20 pages long - at that point it's no longer as reasonable to copy-paste all that into the Clarification.