I disagree strongly on scrying not allowing teleport. It even gives scrying as an example for the category of 'seen casually' in the teleport spell. And of course greater teleport lets you go somewhere with just a description.
If you scry a location like say a castle I see the castle I see the land around it, I know where it is, I can teleport and scrying works like "seen casually." But if I scry a person and they're in a room. No windows just four walls and some stuff. I have no clue where that room is. Is it north, is it south, you don't know. The first line of teleport reads "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." if you scry a closed room without knowing where it is you have an idea of the lay out but you do not know the location,I disagree strongly on scrying not allowing teleport. It even gives scrying as an example for the category of 'seen casually' in the teleport spell. And of course greater teleport lets you go somewhere with just a description.
Right. Paizo has actually further addressed this.
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won’t do any good unless she knows where it is.
If I have a picture of a room I can't teleport there unless I also know that room's address. Basically you have to both know what it looks like visually and be able to walk/swim/fly there using a map if you had to. If you know the location with enough detail that you could walk there but haven't actually seen it, you can't teleport (subject to the specifics and miss chances of teleport or greater teleport for variations on how well you've seen it or had it described). If you've seen it it perfect detail, but have no context on how to get there or where it is in relation to you, you can't teleport there at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I consider the 'advice' on spells in Ultimate Intrigue more a set like optional rules for an intrigue game rather than general rules, but your mileage may vary on that. Personally, it seems to me that most of that advice is just 'gotcha' tactics for GMs to use to try and deal with fact that magic radically changes how intrigue would work, and a world with Pathfinder style magic won't model the more traditional intrigue genre without heavily nerfing it.
Even then though, 'location' isn't really defined enough to be all that usable. How exact do you need to know a location? Is a city enough? Do you need a street address? GPS coordinates? If you can find it on a map how accurate does the map need to be? In the example above, you claim seeing a castle and the land around it is good enough, but why? Don't you have to also 'know' where that land is? If a wizard doesn't have ranks in knowledge: geography is he incapable of teleportation outside of line of sight because he doesn't 'know' where any location is?
It seems to me that the Teleport spell considers knowledge of location and layout to be a single 'thing' and how well you know somewhere's location and layout has been broken into 4 categories: Very Familiar, Studied carefully, seen casually, and viewed once and that a successful scry automatically puts you in the seen casually location.
As a further counter to the idea that knowledge of location and knowledge of layout are separate things, you will note that if that is the case their are absolutely no rules on how well you have to know a location and how you would adjudicate knowing a location or what happens if you know a layout well but have a location wrong. If location was a totally separate thing from layout you would expect at least some mention of how to adjudicate it given how much of spell description focuses on how well a caster knows a place.
Cool house rule, bro.
How have these spells been used in your games? What personal limits have you put on them as a GM? What interesting combinations have you come up with as a player? And how would you determine if someone was or wasn’t thinking about something so your player could read their surface thoughts?
I only put the limitations on the spells that the spells describe, no more and no less.
You cannot scry a location, you can only scry a creature. At least with the spell scry. Vicarious viewing requires you to have access to the object that the sensor will be placed on beforehand -- so it's usefulness is more limited in that way.
Teleport requires layout for accuracy. In most games that I have both GM'd and played, teleport is simply a means of rapid transportation from the places where the action happens to the places where all the loot gets sold.
Reading minds. Reading surface thoughts against a resisting enemy that has failed it's saving throw rarely works as expected by the player -- 1st, the enemy knows it has failed a save, and from there, anyone half-way intelligent will be just repeating a mantra which reveals nothing. Mind reading will most of the time have to be used with intimidation or diplomacy to glean anything useful -- or domination, etc. By itself, it is rarely useful.
Enemies know when they make saves, not when they fail.
Scrying plus Discern Location would work for teleport. Now you have seen the layout around the person, and know precisely where they are.
Honestly, the best defense is Non Detection at mid levels and Mind Blank at higher ones.
In a campaign with a crafter, you can get a 1 use a day Mind Blank item for 17,640 if made using the psychic version of the spell (7th level spell vice 8th). That is the only real protection from this type of tactic.
The only other way to remain somewhat protected is anonymity. Never leave a clue of who you are.
My group is most of the way through a Hell's Rebels campaign. We never let the BBEG know who we were, he was never able to retailiate directly against us because of the precautions taken against divinations.
Enemies know when they make saves, not when they fail.
Only if they don't know that you are casting the spell on them. If you are reading surface thoughts, you won't get any useful information unless you are somehow "eavesdropping" on a verbal conversation or the situation is somehow directing the enemy to think the relevant thoughts.
If you are being interrogated, an intelligent enemy would presume that interrogation involves mind reading and act accordingly (which is what I was referring to when I said that they "know they failed the save" -- I should have said they will know that mind reading magic is being employed. -- and if the interrogation is ongoing and they "don't know" they have succeeded, they can presume via deduction that they have failed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Enemies know when they make saves, not when they fail.Only if they don't know that you are casting the spell on them. If you are reading surface thoughts, you won't get any useful information unless you are somehow "eavesdropping" on a verbal conversation or the situation is somehow directing the enemy to think the relevant thoughts.
If you are being interrogated, an intelligent enemy would presume that interrogation involves mind reading and act accordingly (which is what I was referring to when I said that they "know they failed the save" -- I should have said they will know that mind reading magic is being employed. -- and if the interrogation is ongoing and they "don't know" they have succeeded, they can presume via deduction that they have failed.
Describe the educational system providing this anti-interrogation training and magical awareness (complete with ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, one hopes) to the average NPC of all races in your campaign. Having read a Bestiary I'm not sure how relevant "intelligent enemy" is as a matter of general applicability
|
I'll be honest, I've always viewed seek thoughts as an excellent way to get lynched. Due to the way saving throws work, you have no idea if anyone made their save or not, but those who do making their saving throw know that something hostile just happened, and while they might not associate it with you, the more you go around trying to find information, the more people are going to roll a successful save, even if it requires a natural 20, and the more likely you're going to be caught or at least go under suspicion if you and the party were the primary people around in the locations where people reported a belief that they might have managed to resist some sort of hostile magic. As a result, I pretty much never bother to even learn the spell.
Detect thoughts can run some similar risks, though you probably know that the person whose thoughts you're not detecting made their saving throw or something similar, at least, so you know who you need to Bluff or attempt to use Diplomacy on. But it still takes several rounds to start learning things anyways, so it's still a tricky spell...
Discreetly seeking thoughts and other such spells are also kinda spoiled by that "magic sparkles" FAQ, because (despite the text of the spell talking about looking distracted) you should have some obvious emenation unless you're using some method of masking it.
Describe the educational system providing this anti-interrogation training...
None needed. A stubborn person seeing the guy in a dress casting a spell with no visible effect making a deduction based on the evidence.
That is where the use of intimidation/diplomacy to steer the interrogation comes in.
Most creatures being interrogated aren't thinking about their nefarious evil plans. They are thinking on how to a) end the interrogation and b) kill you for doing what you are doing to them.
GPS coordinates?
Totally got you covered there.
If you can find it on a map how accurate does the map need to be?
I agree with the interpretation from Ultimate Intrigue that disallows "scry-and-fry." Honestly, I've been ruling it that way since AD&D 2e.
One other way to deal with "scry and fry" is the social contract: Flat-out tell your players that if they scry-and-fry the bad guys, the bad guys will do it to them.
On Mind Reading
I've never found this ability to be game-breaking. Every character gets a free mind-reading ability. For friendly NPCs, it's called Diplomacy. For unfriendly NPCs, it's called Intimidate.
Provided they're capable of intelligent conversation, every defeated enemy is a source of information. All it takes is a Heal check or cantrip to stabilize the enemy after combat and a vial of smelling salts. Keep trying your Intimidate check until you either get what you want to know or the GM simply flat out refuses to give you more information. At that point, it's doubtful the GM will hand out any more info with a thought-reading spell over what you already know.
On Scrying
In most cases the sole realm of high level play, scrying has obvious limitations as described above. However, there's one useful part in that it combines well with teleportation to get you wherever you need to go, provided you have a rough idea of the location and a plausible excuse for the GM.
Keep in mind, your sensor focuses on a creature, and gives you a total of a 10 ft. window surrounding that creature. You don't get to direct the sensor around in any way once the target is selected.
So, let's assume your spellcaster wants to get to the other side of the planet. They've never visited this location before, so they'll need at least a glimpse before they can teleport there. In this case, use Knowledge: Geography to find the closest human settlement near this location. Then, cast Scrying to view a creature you have no knowledge about other than that they're in that city. I suggest selecting a target such as "a stray cat in hypotheticalville" to make it a nice, easy check. You'll probably have about a 50% chance of success even with the creature getting a +10 bonus on its will save, you know the approximate location via knowledge, and a stray cat, dog, toad, or other low CR creature from the bestiary isn't gonna care it's getting scryed.
On Teleport
Keep careful track of creature numbers when using Teleport. There's nothing about familiars getting a free ride, for example, so they count as an additional creature. Note that even tiny creatures still count as one full creature per the rules too.
Ultimately, teleportation tactics are easily countered to prevent the party skipping straight to the boss room. Clerics get the 6th level spell Forbiddance in the Core Rulebook. Among other effects, this permanently blocks teleportation into, within and out of an area. Any site of significance to any organization would likely utilize this protection. Obviously this works both against the players as well as the enemy, so alternatives can and should be used too. But if all you're worried about is the party teleporting into Count Evil Von Moustachetwist's throne room, give it a Forbiddance and you're golden.
On Mind Reading
I've never found this ability to be game-breaking. Every character gets a free mind-reading ability. For friendly NPCs, it's called Diplomacy. For unfriendly NPCs, it's called Intimidate.
Those are mind-controlling abilities. The mind-reading ability is Sense Motive.
But, as you point out, mind-control gives you mind-reading too if you use it to make your 'victim' tell you they know.
This is a great thread topic.
How have these spells been used in your games?
In GM'ing CotCT my group found these spells extremely useful. Scry and Fry was the order of the day for a series of hit and run raids on Castle Korvosa and teleport was used effectively to move back and forth to Kaer Maga and Magnimar to spend treasure once Korvosa's economy collapsed. I didn't find either use disruptive to the overall narrative of the story. In fact, the bad guys set several traps for the PC's once the tactic became predictable.
What personal limits have you put on them as a GM?
I just finished Gm'ing SS and a I severely nerfed all magical transportation because it is severely disruptive to the narrative I wanted to tell. I did not however outlaw it all together simply limited its range making it more of a tactical spell than a strategic one.
Mind reading is always a difficult subject, and GM's with players who have and intend to use the ability should speak with them about each of the specific spells, actually this is a good thing to do with all divination's since they are so subjective and rarely meet player expectations. It can be tricky but if the players make a good choice they should be rewarded.
What interesting combinations have you come up with as a player?
In CotCT the bard player used "mind reading" divination's on several occasions to gain some useful information but nothing plot destroying. It was particularly useful in ferreting out the plot behind the Yzahnum character. The surface thoughts of the thugs betraying them while they "faught" Yzahnum and the party watched.
How would you determine if someone was or wasn’t thinking about something so your player could read their surface thoughts?
In the example above it was easy the thugs were thinking about the deception they were actively perpetrating at the time. However, had the player waited until later, when the thugs were have an ale at a nearby tavern, that deception isn't necessarily on the surface.
I've posted my house rules on the topic before, but for those who haven't seen them:
CASTLES AND DUNGEONS
Spells (and abilities duplicating the effects of spells) with the [teleportation] descriptor cannot penetrate to an area that is entirely enclosed by more than 1 ft. of solid stone, 3 ft. of wood or earth, an inch of metal, and/or a thin coating of lead (an exception is teleportation circle, which works normally). The same restriction applies to scrying effects and most detection spells. This guideline, adapted from the Dungeonomicon (Frank and “K,” The Gaming Den), not only curtails “scry-and-fry” tactics, but also provides a rationale for the prevalence of both castles and dungeons in a game world in which dragons exist.Kings therefore live in stone castles, not for defensibility from armies, but for secrecy; if a need to teleport or use scrying magic comes up, they can go to an outside room and open a leaded-glass window, but while inside an inner room with stone walls and a lead-lined door, their councils are protected from eavesdropping and teleporting assassins. Many wizards likewise live in stone towers with designated divining and transportation rooms open to the outside. Tombs and cultist headquarters are typically found in dungeons underground for similar reasons.
Dimension door effects within a dungeon or building itself are normally not affected, as the doorways, rooms, and corridors provide “open” pathways of effect within the complex itself. However, rooms with stone walls and thick stone or metal doors (such as all of the Tomb of Horrors beyond the Chapel of Evil and Stone Gate) would fall under these guidelines.
Describe the educational system providing this anti-interrogation training...
None needed. A stubborn person seeing the guy in a dress casting a spell with no visible effect making a deduction based on the evidence.
That is where the use of intimidation/diplomacy to steer the interrogation comes in.
Most creatures being interrogated aren't thinking about their nefarious evil plans. They are thinking on how to a) end the interrogation and b) kill you for doing what you are doing to them.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Or possibly you're a psycophath who got arrested once and sat in the interview room thinking about killing the poor detective asking you about what happened. Yikes!
Let's hope it's ignorance. So I'll give you (a) for free: the way to end an interrogation is to be the interrogator and decide to end it, a decision which will be influenced by the quantity and perceived quality of information delivered.
Detect Thoughts is a min/level spell. You don't cast it where you can be seen casting it, and the person who asks questions isn't the one who maintains the spell. And past low level there are better spells. Once you hit Mind Probe you're in trouble.
I also don't understand how the person would recognize a professional interrogation or why they would want to kill someone for offering them help and providing them with a cigarette and some nice snacks. (If every captured person knows about Detect Thoughts and how to resist giving up information, surely every interrogator knows the finest techniques.)
As someone who served as an officer in a branch of the US armed forces, let me tell you about the standard anti-interrogation training: you get told about the Code of Conduct and nothing else. Because your chances of being captured are tiny, the information most of you have isn't worth much if anything (and quickly depreciates), most aren't smart enough to retain or apply anything really effective, and there are more important training priorities. Now if you're a pilot or special forces soldier you'll get SERE training (of which Resistance is only 1/4 of the curriculum), but that's only because you have a much higher risk of capture and, most importantly, a huge budget and training pipeline supporting you. None of this applies to random people/creatures who don't think about the possibility of being captured, and generally don't know what magic actually does or how it does it.
In any case, the best way to use Detect Thoughts in an interrogation would be to use it before the interrogation. Put someone in a cell, tell him the interrogators will be there in an hour, and have someone detecting their thoughts through the wall while they think about the things they don't want to reveal and which lies they want to rehearse before the interrogators arrive.
I'll ignore your many insults. But I'll say this. I served in the same armed forces as you claim. You have nothing on me in that regard.
I also don't understand how the person would recognize a professional interrogation or why they would want to kill someone for offering them help and providing them with a cigarette and some nice snacks. (If every captured person knows about Detect Thoughts and how to resist giving up information, surely every interrogator knows the finest techniques.)
You realize that you just supported exactly what I was describing, right? This is what is called the use of intimidation/diplomacy to steer the subject into revealing the information you need.
For all your insults, you just proved my point.
|
But teleportation? Why fight it? Embrace it. Make dungeons with sealed off individual rooms that require teleportation to navigate between them. Give them unusual maps that serve as fun puzzles for the party to solve, lest they end up in trapped "decoy" rooms. REWARD players for having access to the big guns.
Fighting the influence of high magic and how it fundamentallychanges the structure of adventure requires a joint effort on the players to not play utility casters and the GM to cut out the usual problems that a high level party is expected to be able to solve. It's ultimately easier to embrace it and write along side it instead of trying to fight it.
|
I once had a group of PCs use a word of recall scroll to escape a dungeon. While they were healing up, the dungeon's owner tossed tossed some slaves and zombies (commanded to attack anyone else) in the room then sealed it. The party later uses dim door to go back into that room to find no breathable air, multiple enemies, and a few feet of rock between them and the rest of the dungeon. Nobody died but they still talk about that trap 5 years later.
If the opposition is smart they will be ready for some of these high level tricks.
Divination spells always have some sort of limit, usually regarding what sort of info you get or how much per casting. I haven't had one break a game yet.
** spoiler omitted **
This. I had a short article about teleports and divinations that basically said the same, totally changed my perspective of the game. There is also a thread of advice for high level adventures somewhere on paizo, it's really helpful. EDIT: Found it.
But teleportation? Why fight it? Embrace it. Make dungeons with sealed off individual rooms that require teleportation to navigate between them...
It's an option, if you're a GM creating content around your party. Not the sort of thing I'd want in a published adventure, where you might have no PC with teleport spells...
But teleportation? Why fight it? Embrace it. Make dungeons with sealed off individual rooms that require teleportation to navigate between them...It's an option, if you're a GM creating content around your party. Not the sort of thing I'd want in a published adventure, where you might have no PC with teleport spells...
Or you could make a disclaimer that it will be necessary for the adventure and make an item or an NPC available who's got their back if they don't.
Good point.
Something like teleporting has so much narrative significance it would sometimes be nice to decide in advance whether you were doing a teleporting or non-teleporting campaign.
So if the story is about being a group of roving troubleshooters on behalf of the emperor and you're supposed to immediately jump to locations where there's trouble, then you could give the PCs a Rod of Teleport right from the start, one that even the big dumb fighter can use.
But if the campaign is themed around long overland journeys, Lord-of-the-Rings style, you might want to rule out teleport somehow. (For example, you're trying to destroy The Ring by dropping it into a distant volcano, but the ring is thirty feet in diameter and so heavy it can only be moved by a team of twelve elephants...)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But if the campaign is themed around long overland journeys, Lord-of-the-Rings style, you might want to rule out teleport somehow. (For example, you're trying to destroy The Ring by dropping it into a distant volcano, but the ring is thirty feet in diameter and so heavy it can only be moved by a team of twelve elephants...)
You could always dimension lock the MacGuffin. From what I hear, that's what they do in Jade Regent. Then again, that one has a roaring bonfire fueled exclusively by the party's gold pieces so you may want to lay off the Caravan rules if you're going for a 'road trip' narrative.
You could always dimension lock the MacGuffin. From what I hear, that's what they do in Jade Regent.
The other thing they do is put the longest part of the journey at the start, where the characters have neither the skill nor the knowledge of the destination to teleport, and most certainly don't have the money to pay for someone else to do it for them.
Another solution, depending on the plot/story, is to simply scatter the things that the PC's need along the way.
Enemies know when they make saves, not when they fail.
PRPG page 216-217:
"A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
"Successfully" saves. By implication this means if you fail a save you don't feel that same effect.
How this gibes with abilities that give a save bonus in return for an immediate action is a mystery. If you haven't failed your Hold Person save you don't know about the attack yet so you can't take the action.