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| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So, this has come up multiple times in the past, ultimately leading to an official FAQ that partially did not actually answer the main question, FOUND HERE, as well as I'm certain many others on the or similar topics.
The FAQ itself is FOUND HERE
Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?
With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.
Like most FAQs, the underlying point is that the ruling or clarification is only speaking about the specific example that it details, which in this case is the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training.
What it states is that the Unchained Rogue, and specifically the Finesse Training ability that allows them to utilize Dexterity for Damage with certain weapons instead of their Strength is essentially treated just like Strength would be in regards to fighting with a two-handed weapon or an "off-handed" weapon.
How does this work for anyone else that is not specifically an Unchained Rogue and somehow gets the ability to use Dexterity, (or any other Ability Score) in place of Strength, when they wield a suitable two-handed weapon, for instance an Elven Curve Blade or Aldori Dueling Sword?
The normal, "general" rule, as far as I know, is that when you replace an Ability Score/Modifier for another, the aspects that normally only apply to the original Ability Score do not apply to the new one. So, for instance, if there where an ability to use Wisdom for Damage instead of Strength, one would not benefit from Wisdom modifier x1.5 for using a two-handed weapon as Strength does.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
The Unchained Rogue Class Feature is an exception.
To complicate matters, (or in all reality, likely the main corner case), might be:
An Aldori swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) on damage rolls made with an Aldori dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding an Aldori dueling sword one-handed or twohanded, though the swordlord does not apply 1-1/2 times his Dexterity bonus on damage rolls while fighting two-handed. An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or an off-hand weapon, including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.
The most current version of the same weapon does not include that bolded line, which could be intended because of;
1.) the normal rule is that Dex does not benefit from the "Str and a half" rule, and so there is no need to repeat the obvious.
or
2.) that this was a purposeful change meant to set a new precedence, and it was left out as an indication that now doing "Dex and a half" is intended.
In most other cases, it is a non-issue, either specifically requiring the weapon to be wielded in one hand or to be a Light weapon, which does not benefit from the normal "Str and a Half".
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
To summarize, was the initial FAQ meant to:
A.) Speak only about the Unchained Rogue, but not other options?B.) Meant to apply to any ability that uses Dex rather than Str for bonus Damage?
C.) Apply to any Class Feature or Option that changes one Ability Score used for another?
D.) Other/None of the Above?
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I'm myself under impression that str modifier is only one that by default gets that 1.5 damage bonus. I mean, if dex gets it too now, then doesn't that also open the can for all minor things that allow you to substitute another stat for str in attack & damage rolls also getting that two handed 1.5 bonus unless exception is written out?
Besides, there are lot of minor reasons why I think it would be weird if dex by default gets that 1.5 damage bonus too. Like, I don't really see how wielding weapon two handed gives you more damage when you do it with finesse instead of strength. But yeah, like I said, they are mostly minor gripes that doesn't really hold up as evidence.
But yeah, clarification would be nice I guess, don't really care much either way.
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To be honest, I really do not either.
I can see merit on all sides.
If Dex x1.5 is just normally allowed for THF, that does, somewhat, reduce the benefit from the Unchained Rogue.
I tend to find Dex to damage generally better overall than Str, not by itself, but because Dex is important to so many other things as well, and if Dex gets one of the major benefits that Str does for Damage, it hurts Str that much more.
If Dex x1.5 is intended, that should mean that any other Ability score replacing Str to damage should also apply, and that can very quickly get out of hand, especially when Int or Cha come in.
Some folks feel Dex builds don't get enough, others they are already too good.
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The FAQ applies to the unchained rouge only. All other methods of getting dex to damage either specifically state that you only get 1x dex to damage if two-handing such as agile or the aldori prc, or they specifically do not work if using your off hand, sucks as slashing grace or dervish dance.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but the Adventure's Guide reprinted the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class, and the wording of that ability changed, which is ultimately what prompted this thread.
Deft Strike (Ex): An Aldori swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) to damage rolls made with an Aldori dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding an Aldori dueling sword one-handed or two-handed. An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or using an off-hand weapon (including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons).
vs
Deft Strike (Ex):An Aldori swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) on damage rolls made with an Aldori dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding an Aldori dueling sword one-handed or twohanded, though the swordlord does not apply 1-1/2 times his Dexterity bonus on damage rolls while fighting two-handed. An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or an off-hand weapon, including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.
This allows for different people to read the same relevant material and come to different conclusions.
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This question would also apply to Elven Battle Style when using an Elven Curved Blade.
While using Elven Battle Style, you can add your Intelligence modifier to that weapon’s damage (instead of any other ability bonus or modifier you can add to your weapon damage). The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
The FAQ applies to the unchained rouge only. All other methods of getting dex to damage either specifically state that you only get 1x dex to damage if two-handing such as agile or the aldori prc, or they specifically do not work if using your off hand, sucks as slashing grace or dervish dance.
To be honest, not "all other methods" mention that.
hereWEAPON FINESSE (MYTHIC)
You're an expert with weapons that rely on your agility.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: When using Weapon Finesse, you may also use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on your damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty doesn't apply to either the attack rolls or the damage rolls.
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The FAQ applies to the unchained rouge only. All other methods of getting dex to damage either specifically state that you only get 1x dex to damage if two-handing such as agile or the aldori prc, or they specifically do not work if using your off hand, sucks as slashing grace or dervish dance.
That almost all other methods for Dex-to-damage restrict 1.5x Dex bonus is strong circumstantial evidence that the FAQ for the Unchained Rogue is clarifying a general principle of stat replacement.
@ Beckett: Thank you for setting up the thread! I really hope that we get a official answer, one way or the other.
Until we do so, I'm going with Dex-to-damage only for 1H (or ½x Dex for off-hand if permissable with the specific ability), and 2H can only use 1½x Str damage (or possibly substituting 1x Dex). Therefore the Unchained Rogue will be the only one to use 1½x Dex to damage until the designers speak up or make errata of some sort.
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Deft Strike (Ex): An Aldori swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) to damage rolls made with an Aldori dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding an Aldori dueling sword one-handed or two-handed. An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or using an off-hand weapon (including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons).
Doesn't most, if not all of the swordlords abilities work only when you are using the dueling sword one handed?
But to be honest I think the rogue is a special case dex to damage is very power thinking on all the other stuff dex also gives like bonus to init, reflex and ac while str doens't give any of those bonuses.
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I'm inclined to think that if Dex or other abilities don't act like strength when using a weapon in 2 hands that they also wouldn't work like strength when using 2 weapons. That would mean:
Based on the current rules it needs to be "like str" with x1 for 1 hand, x1.5 for 2h, and x.5 for off hand.
OR
"Not like str" which would mean x1 for 1h, 2h and off hand.
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I think it is like strength.
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But to be honest I think the rogue is a special case dex to damage is very power thinking on all the other stuff dex also gives like bonus to init, reflex and ac while str doens't give any of those bonuses.
I think the unchained rogue was a special case. But, now the design space has opened up. 1.5x Dex to damage is a relatively small boost to an otherwise average prestige class.
Just because....
Where's my strength to AC feat? Or my feat to replace Dex with Strength on dex based skills?
I’m interested in this topic, especially the way Elven Battle Style is involves.Me too. I thought there weren't any 2H D2D options apart from the UnRogue, but I'm doubting now.
Most of those didn't exist until very recently. Mythic weapon finesse is the only old way of doing it. My guess is that you get 1.5(dex) on the two-handed weapon unless specified otherwise.
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Just because....
Where's my strength to AC feat? Or my feat to replace Dex with Strength on dex based skills?
I'm pretty sure you just won any thread that deals with Dex to anything.
Ever.
Personally, I like if it goes more circular. Dex to strength. Wisdom to dex. Intelligence to wisdom. Charisma to intelligence. Constitution to charisma. And strength to constitution.
The FAQ applies to the unchained rouge only. All other methods of getting dex to damage either specifically state that you only get 1x dex to damage if two-handing such as agile or the aldori prc, or they specifically do not work if using your off hand, sucks as slashing grace or dervish dance.
Not all other instances. Oddly enough, the Whirling Dervish archetype for the Swashbuckler uses the pretty much the same language as the Uncahined Rogue.
Specifically, the source says "Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites."
So interestingly enough, this is one of those other complicating examples.
She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
Technically that only applies to scimitars. If using any other Swashbuckler-Finesse weapon, the issue still applies. All Whirling Dervish does is add Scimitars to the list, but with its own caveat.
If it were meant to build solely around Dervish Dance, the archetype would replace features, not alter. But, this is steering the conversation a bit far away from the intent...