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I get that you get to use your chosen skill to make items but does that mean I can make any item using that skill that doesn't specifically say its crafted with another skill?
For example if I had Master Craftsman (Alchemy) and Craft Wonders Item could I use Alchemy to make a Robe of Components? Or Eyes of the Eagle?
You can only make items that can be made with the skill you choose when taking Master Craftsman. So for alchemy that would be potions, elixirs, maybe incense, glue etc...
I get that you get to use your chosen skill to make items but does that mean I can make any item using that skill that doesn't specifically say its crafted with another skill?
For example if I had Master Craftsman (Alchemy) and Craft Wonders Item could I use Alchemy to make a Robe of Components? Or Eyes of the Eagle?
When making wondrous items, it is basically up to the GM what craft and profession skills can be used when it isn't obvious.
Personally, Craft (Alchemy) could be fluffed into making most magic items. You could say you brew up something that you soak the item components in, infusing them with the magic in the brew. You can probably think of a way to make any of the wondrous items, especially if you include ingredients in your brew that are thematic to the item (breath of an air elemental for a bottle of air, brain of a telepathic creature for a helm of telepathy, blood of particularly strong creatures for items dealing with strength, troll blood of similiar for items dealing with regeneration/fast healing, and so on).
Arms and armor do list specific craft skills, so while you could possible do the same with those, that would be a houserule.
wondrous item its an applicable craft or profession, so an amulet would be craft jewellery, a helmet would be craft armour, gauntlet same, it must be an applicable one by the rule of crafting a magic items when taking a craft or profession
Yeah, that's exactly what Jeraa said. What is "applicable" or not depends solely on the GM, as the rules on magic item creation list no examples for appropriate Craft skills to create Wondrous Items.
In fact, there's quite a few Wondrous Items that make perfect sense for Craft (Alchemy). Obviously elixirs, teas, salts, salves, ointments and pills of some kind, but also Boro Beads and Preserving Flasks which require the creator to be able to prepare extracts. But I would definitely question its usage for, say, Wrist or Headband slot items.
Which is why its really best to use Profession Blacksmith as your skill of choice due to the virtually unlimited range of weapons, armor and wondrous items that can be made by a Blacksmith.
I would say though that creating the "magical" component with alchemy which is added to a mundane item the character is capable of crafting is more than fair in most home games. It could be magical flux that is added to making the sword blank. It could be a special tannin mixture added to the leather making process. It could casting a resin made of dragon blood and dryad sap that is poured into a medallion mold. All of them are basic crafting checks where the challenging part is provided via alchemy.
Any DM that cares more about crafting a story with and for their players rather than "beating their players" is going to have a vested interest in accommodating a players vision rather than mandating a strict interpretation of what is essentially a story feat.
I'm surprised this isn't on the FAQ board. Pity you can't use Spellcraft as the craft skill that would solve all the problems.
you can't use profession for armour or weapon since the magical craft of those precise that you need craft armour for magic armour, craft bow for bow and arrow or weapon for any other weapon, with wondrous item it can be ok for some since it need to be an applicable craft or profession
Thankfully your opinion that Profession is not capable of crafting magic items, despite being an option of the feat, doesn't really mater for the OP or myself.
its not my opinion its the rule, magic weapon and armour require either spellcraft or the relevant craft, while many other magical crafting its either spellcraft, relevant craft or profession same for wondrous item, only weapon and amour say it must be a craft and mastercraftsman do not say you can use that profession/craft for any magical craft, just that you use the craft or profession (chosen when taking the feat) as your caster level (for magic arms and armour and wondrous item only) you still must meet the prerequisite for crafting it with the skillThankfully your opinion that Profession is not capable of crafting magic items, despite being an option of the feat, doesn't really mater for the OP or myself.
you can't use profession for armour or weapon since the magical craft of those precise that you need craft armour for magic armour, craft bow for bow and arrow or weapon for any other weapon, with wondrous item it can be ok for some since it need to be an applicable craft or profession
There are very few Wondrous items that list a specific craft skill. Just leafing through my Ultimate Equipment I didn't see any.
The only reference I can find is this from the CRB, magic item chapter section on making wondrous items:
"Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."
Every other type of item lists one or more specific skills.
We will have to agree to disagree and FAQ the question. To me the intent of the feat is to allow non casters a method of creating their primary tools at the expense of skill points and a powerful hit dice feat. If it was intended to be as selective as you believe then the feat would have listed Craft only and not profession as well.
Since the craft skill involves a non-extensive list, couldn't one simply have the Craft (Magic Items) skill and use that as their Master Craftsman crafting skill?
Thankfully your opinion that Profession is not capable of crafting magic items, despite being an option of the feat, doesn't really mater for the OP or myself.
you can't use profession for armour or weapon since the magical craft of those precise that you need craft armour for magic armour, craft bow for bow and arrow or weapon for any other weapon, with wondrous item it can be ok for some since it need to be an applicable craft or profession
It's not an opinion. Profession can't make Magic Weapons or Armor.
You have to check the Magic Item Creation rules.
Link
"At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with."
Creating Magic Armor
"Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
Creating Magic Weapons
"Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)."
So Profession (Blacksmith) can't be used on those.
Creating Wondrous Items
"Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."
Profession (Blacksmith) could be used to make certain Wondrous Items. Like Helms, Gauntlets, etc that a Blacksmith could use. But you can't use Profession (Blacksmith) to make a Robe.
and does it negate what i said about the rule? no. you need the relevant craft or profession to still do it, if all they say is profession x you need profession x to do it not profession y or craft x to do it
Also from a DM perspective you need to ask yourself why you are saying no. If you think it is for a game balance reason then by all means, warn your players that its a dead end feat and get the wizard to take craft feats. If on the other hand its something the player wants to do for story reasons then go for it. Crafting items and finding the rare components are fantastic plot hooks that the players are personally invested in.
Have a thief steal your +2 rapier of undead bane and it sucks. Have a thief steal your +2 rapier of undead bane that you needed to collect the remains of 10 different types of undead, retrieve holy water from a monastery in the mountains and melt down an ancient sword, you now will tear down the very sky to get it back.
I should also caveat by saying any time my players want to use craft feats they need to collect raw materials of significance to make up for the game balance of crafting for half price.
Put me in the "Choose a skill, use that skill" camp - because that is what the feat explicitly states. Nowhere in the feat does it limit you to a skill appropriate to the item. You use yhe chosen skill instead of any other skill check.
In regards to Master Craftsman using different craft or professions I just consider it a different form of making magic, like in the show Once Upon A Time where Rumpelstiltskin makes gold out of straw which is also a physical manifestation of pure magic .
I mean with a trait you can get an SLA to get a caster level and then just take a crafting feat like a normal caster sand use spell-craft. 1.5 feats vs 2, also you can take multiple crafting feats.
The wording is that you "must use" the chosen skill, not that you may use the chosen skill -instead of- the typical skill. This implies to me that you are limited to cases where the chosen skill is an option for creation of the item.
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Brain in a jar, the feat is clearly made to be an exception to the core books rules as ALL feats are.
It only makes the exceptions it says it does. Nothing more.
"Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats."
So Master Craftsman lets you take either of those feats.
"You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level."
It lets you have a "caster level" for creating magic items.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
It requires you to use the chosen skill to make said magic items.
"The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item."
Otherwise it still follows the rules for Magic Item Creation.
What you're saying is wizards can't swing longswords with martial weapon proficiency long swords because wizards don't get that.
?
Put me in the "Choose a skill, use that skill" camp - because that is what the feat explicitly states. Nowhere in the feat does it limit you to a skill appropriate to the item. You use yhe chosen skill instead of any other skill check.
No the feat doesn't limit it. The Magic Item Creation rules limit it.
The feat does not remove the restrictions found in the Magic Item Creation rules.
A Wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armor who wants to make +1 Chain-shirt must make a skill check. Either Spellcraft or Craft (Armor).
A Master Craftsman with Craft Magic Arms and Armor who wants to make a +1 Chain-shirt must make a skill check as well. Craft (Armor).
So if the Master Craftsman wants to make magic armor they have to spend two feats (Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor) and are stuck using Craft (Armor) to make magic items since they can't use Spellcraft.
That is how the rules work.
It's not useless as it can bridge some feats. For instance, alchemy would do potions and wondourous item oils and perfumes.
Leathers would do belts and leather armour...
It's all relative.
Except it only works with a specific crafting feat (which you must pick / take with another feat), which can only be craft wondrous or craft magic arms and armor
It's not useless as it can bridge some feats. For instance, alchemy would do potions and wondourous item oils and perfumes.
Leathers would do belts and leather armour...
It's all relative.
You can't make Potions. Master Craftsman doesn't let you take Brew Potion. :(
The best use of it I've seen is Craft (Clothing) and use it with Craft Wondrous Items. Since it includes so many of the useful items in that category.
In regards to Master Craftsman using different craft or professions I just consider it a different form of making magic, like in the show Once Upon A Time where Rumpelstiltskin makes gold out of straw which is also a physical manifestation of pure magic .
Whoa whoa whoa there. Let's be clear Rumpelstiltskin was just another @$$ hole Gnome that got what he deserved like all Gnomes should. Kill all the Gnomes, give their land to the Ratfolk, I'm just saying.
What Brain and John appear to be arguing is that master craftsman should read as follows
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Creating Magic Armor
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Craft (armor).
Creating Magic Weapons
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Creating Wondrous Items
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Wondrous Item.
Skill Used In Creation: an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
Normal - Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats
If it really is this restrictive then I will house rule that Master Craftsman (insert craft skill) gives you a pseudo item creation feat cut down to what your Craft can be used for.
After all, who can actually use this feat? Fighter, barbarian, rogue without minor magic, Slayer, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger and kineticist. Other than kineticist they are all hurting for feats to do their job or have so few skill points that craft ranks are a real sacrifice.
My Rewrite of Master Craftsman
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of items created with this feat. You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Craft (armor) - Can create magical armor as if you had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor Feat using Craft (Armor) in place of Spellcraft under normal item creation rules.
Craft (bows) - Can craft magic bows and arrows as if you had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor Feat using Craft (Bow) in place of Spellcraft under normal item creation rules.
Craft (weapons) - All other weapons as if you had the Craft Magical Arms and Armor Feat using Craft (weapons) in place of Spellcraft under normal item creation rules.
Other Crafting and profession: can craft Named Wondrous items the skill applies for, additionally can craft custom wondrous items as if you had the Craft Wondrous Item feat using the chosen craft or profession in place of Spellcraft under normal item creation rules.
Special: Can take this feat multiple times, each time pick a different craft or profession.
Mellok your rewrite for Master Craftsman wouldn't allow anyone to craft any magic item.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
You'd need to add in something about ignoring that or counting as the required item feat.
Mellok your rewrite for Master Craftsman wouldn't allow anyone to craft any magic item.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
You'd need to add in something about ignoring that or counting as the required item feat.
I think I'm being trolled but suffice it to say that my intent was to say the updated master craftsman feat would count as having the appropriate magic item creation feat when creating items allowed by the feat.
I think I'm being trolled but suffice it to say that my intent was to say the updated master craftsman feat would count as having the appropriate magic item creation feat when creating items allowed by the feat.Mellok your rewrite for Master Craftsman wouldn't allow anyone to craft any magic item.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
You'd need to add in something about ignoring that or counting as the required item feat.
Yup. I trolled you so goodz...
Or maybe I was just trying to be helpful. :P
I like this feat for expert class npc smiths, explains the noncaster master smith making magic swords. For a PC, yeah, lousy.
And now that that's out of the way, yes, the feat sucks. You can only take it once. You then need to spend another feat taking the item creation feat. And after all that, you can only make a limited subset of the magic items. It's a terrible, terrible feat that is still basically the only way for noncasters to make magic items. Remember, they walked back using an SLA for item creation feats.
Oh look another "FAQ" that's actually errata. Can't have non-castsers have slightly easier access to feats that let them preform magic
Oh look, all the same arguments all over again. Let's go through this again.
Some axioms we need to agree to or there's no point to this conversation: Magic Weapons and Armor have explicit skills listed for their creation (Spellcraft, Craft (bows), Craft (weapons), and Craft (armor)).
Agreed
Again, nothing in the feat changes how the normal magic item creation process works.
This is the part where we disagree. And going over it again won't change either of our opinions, but I read the feat as changing how the item creation rules work by forcing you to use your chosen skill to create the item rather than the normal skill listed.
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.
So it looks like the two camps differ on the implications of "must use." The strict or narrow read is that you must use the chosen skill, and are therefore limited to items that the book allows to be made with said skill, as this side sees no exception being made to the rule on which skills can make what items.
The opposing side reads "must" as requiring the chosen skill to be used, and as it is required then it becomes permitted as the default skill, since this requirement is overruling the general rule on which skills may be used.
Hmm, I know which way I read it, but not sure how to persuasively make a case that would sway either camp.