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On the other hand, unless you want to argue that the PC can help the Tiger don the Large barding without the barding ever leaving contact with the Tiger for more than 6 seconds (which I suppose someone might argue), it seems to me that even if the Tiger holding the barding in its jaws is sufficient to trigger Fitting, as soon as the PC takes the barding to help the Tiger don it, the Fitting quality should cause it to revert to...
If this was the case fitting wouldn't work at all on plate armor, which requires someone to help you put it on or it can only be donned hastily.
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Can we start a petition to get the FAQ overturned? Because as written it's a massive **** to companions.
It's also super wonky with gear for large+ enemies. Oh that huge giant over there has a +1 greatclub, the club itself now costs thousands more gold because it's masterwork, the +1 price is no longer the driving feature of it's cost.
in a mechanics balancing sense it's just bonkers.It's oppressive to players, and has a built in exploit now that tiny reduces price. So players are going to find all the ways to exploit this because "following the spirit" of the rule is to oppressive. that the base armor for a huge mount that wanted to make use of all it's dex would cost a fortune, way out of the price range for most games.
This ruling makes as much sense as just banning large+ armor period.
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I did not even know fitting existed untill this thread.
Well cause it wasn't viewed as that useful until this FAQ. Once a rule changes up things you'll be sure that the player's fix or next best thing will be circled soon after. Cause player's really only know off hand the stuff that is useful to most players.
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Weapons too. At first calc that would cause the cost of my sword to go from 3400 to 24400. Which would pretty much nerf the concept.
But, I remembered Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers. 1000gp to move it 1 step closer to properly sized. Apply 3 times and I'm back in business. 6050 is still a chunk of change, but it's salvageable.
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So how does this work with Cold Iron? If multipliers applied after the static increases, a masterwork cold iron longsword would cost 660gp ((300+15)*2) Given that it has been officially printed as costing 330gp...It'll have to be changed to be 660 gp.
Excuse me, but isn't (300+15)*2 a total of 630? Not 660? Or am I missing something?
The huge cost change is definitely going to throw that treasure out of whack. Each encounter is only supposed to grant you X gold. Now you're fighting that storm giant and his gear is worth a lot more. That's going to throw off the economy a bit. That said, does this mean that every PFS scenario and module will need an errata saying "Oh, btw, you actually get X gold instead of Y gold because the FAQ updated." Or are we just going to assume that the PCs don't get the extra gold and the Society just took that as a fee? Because I'm sure a lot of PCs, especially Seeker PCs, would love that extra 100 to 10k gold for past scenarios. It wouldn't offset the costs of the newly priced weapons and armor, but it'd be a start.
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I'm just quite baffled as to why they thought this answer was a good idea.Can we start a petition to get the FAQ overturned? Because as written it's a massive **** to companions.considering they waited 15 years to put it into effect i doubt that.
I am in the same train of thought.
Large- or Huge-sized armor provides no greater benefit to its wearer, Special Materials or not, so there shouldn't be an increase in its cost.
But that point was repeatedly made in my FAQ request thread, so theoretically it was decided to be an unimportant consideration.
I wonder how Starfinder will treat the cost of Special Materials.
Can we start a petition to get the FAQ overturned? Because as written it's a massive **** to companions.considering they waited 15 years to put it into effect i doubt that.
Hey they scaled back Flurry = Two Weapon Fighting so there is hope. Just remember not to be asshats to the devs over this no matter what.
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On the other hand, unless you want to argue that the PC can help the Tiger don the Large barding without the barding ever leaving contact with the Tiger for more than 6 seconds (which I suppose someone might argue), it seems to me that even if the Tiger holding the barding in its jaws is sufficient to trigger Fitting, as soon as the PC takes the barding to help the Tiger don it, the Fitting quality should cause it to revert to...If this was the case fitting wouldn't work at all on plate armor, which requires someone to help you put it on or it can only be donned hastily.
Well, if you are Medium and so is your squire, them helping you won't change the Fitting effect.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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On the flip side, is does make a few enemies easier to fight. Huge+ NPCs with weapon and armor are fairly rare, but this effectively disarms them as they can't afford their weapon anymore. (Large can probably still afford it)
If they want to force this on us, it has to be a two-way street.
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I'm just quite baffled as to why they thought this answer was a good idea.Can we start a petition to get the FAQ overturned? Because as written it's a massive **** to companions.considering they waited 15 years to put it into effect i doubt that.I am in the same train of thought.
Large- or Huge-sized armor provides no greater benefit to its wearer, Special Materials or not, so there shouldn't be an increase in its cost.
But that point was repeatedly made in my FAQ request thread, so theoretically it was decided to be an unimportant consideration.
I wonder how Starfinder will treat the cost of Special Materials.
Mechanics be ignored and players cost be ignored, it makes sense that something really small uses less and costs less, and something that is really big uses more and costs more, so we're doing that regardless of the implications!
ORHey, this will totally mess up tons of players with animal companions, since we want to nerf all player options we'll make the costs too expensive to afford.
those are my current best guesses.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yet another FAQ that seems to punish people using AC. Getting rid of the Fitting enchantment will just make people with ACs even more disadvantaged on top of the magic item rules. It also means taking Mammoth Rider becomes a terrible fit for PFS due to gold limitations.
Why does campaign leadership hate my wolf?
RIP Animal Companions that can take a hit.
Seriously? Lets put this in perspective.
Lets assume you had been using this to get a Mithral Kikko so that your wolf can have the best armor possible with no Armor Check Penalty.
By 9th level, a wolf has a +8 natural armor bonus, +1 dex, -1 size, +1 Mith-Kikko gives it +6 extra, for ~6000 gp.
So that is AC 24 from just that (not counting barkskin, etc)
With this FAQ, you the best armor you can get with no AC, is now MW studded Leather, at 700 gp. Upgrade that to +2 for a total of 4700 for a +5 Armor bonus.
AC 23. You lost 1 AC, and gained back 1300 gp.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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On the plus side, tiny-sized Adamantine Fullplate for your Mauler Familiar just became very affordable.Except I think there's questions or rules against familiars wearing armor.
Not really:
By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for a list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its feats for Extra Item Slot for free. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items and activate ioun stones.
Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel
Link
So if you give your familiar Extra Item Slot (Armor)
It can use magical armor.
I suppose there is an open question of whether it can use *non-magical* armor without needing the extra item slot. But if you were going to go this route, you probably will want the armor to be magic anyway.
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I'm not getting the heartburn this is causing, at least as far as armor for companions is concerned. Large Darkleaf Lamellar Barding used to (arguably) cost 990 gp (60 for the Lamellar x 4 for nonhumanoid = 240 + 750 for the Darkleaf = 990). Now it costs 3240 gp (60 for the Lamellar + 750 for Darkleaf = 810 x 4 for nonhumanoid = 3240). This for +4 to AC, no ACP (and hence no proficiency required), can be enchanted, doesn't require burning a feat for Extra Item Slot, stacks with the Natural Armor and Dex bonus that many companions already have in abundance, etc. Compared to most other ways of boosting AC this still seems cheap. Even a Mammoth Rider's Huge barding will only cost 6480 gp before enchanting. What's the big deal?
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Yet another FAQ that seems to punish people using AC. Getting rid of the Fitting enchantment will just make people with ACs even more disadvantaged on top of the magic item rules. It also means taking Mammoth Rider becomes a terrible fit for PFS due to gold limitations.
Why does campaign leadership hate my wolf?
RIP Animal Companions that can take a hit.Seriously? Let's put this in perspective.
Let's assume you had been using this to get a Mithral Kikko so that your wolf can have the best armor possible with no Armor Check Penalty.
By 9th level, a wolf has a +8 natural armor bonus, +1 dex, -1 size, +1 Mith-Kikko gives it +6 extra, for ~6000 gp.
So that is AC 24 from just that (not counting barkskin, etc)
With this FAQ, you the best armor you can get with no AC, is now MW studded Leather, at 700 gp. Upgrade that to +2 for a total of 4700 for a +5 Armor bonus.
AC 23. You lost 1 AC, and gained back 1300 gp.
And it only gets worse from there. If the armor was already +2 for 9000 now you're down 2 AC and have back 4300, not enough to increase the armor to +3. And now the AC will always be down 2 armor for having 4300. That's a lot of armor for a cheap price.
Also it gets even worse if you went and invested the feats to get mithral full plate for something with less good dex, to actually have GOOD AC for the companion. As now the price has shot out of what you can reasonably afford in PFS at 42,000 instead of 15,000. One is 1/3 a lv9's wealth, the other is basically all of it, and you might not even be able to buy it cause it requires 49 fame. for just the mundane armor. That's a LOT of AC gone
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I'm not getting the heartburn this is causing, at least as far as armor for companions is concerned. Large Darkleaf Lamellar Barding used to (arguably) cost 990 gp (60 for the Lamellar x 4 for nonhumanoid = 240 + 750 for the Darkleaf = 990). Now it costs 3240 gp (60 for the Lamellar + 750 for Darkleaf = 810 x 4 for nonhumanoid = 3240). This for +4 to AC, no ACP (and hence no proficiency required), can be enchanted, doesn't require burning a feat for Extra Item Slot, stacks with the Natural Armor and Dex bonus that many companions already have in abundance, etc. Compared to most other ways of boosting AC this still seems cheap. Even a Mammoth Rider's Huge barding will only cost 6480 gp before enchanting. What's the big deal?
The big deal is that not everyone is satisfied with only getting 4 AC from their armor when they used to be getting +9 with a reasonable cost.
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My heartburn isn't over the specific cost, or even what the specific rule is. (I don't have any armored animal companions, so I don't have a horse, or a dinosaur, or an elephant) in this race. My heartburn is over the fact that this FAQ contradicts lots of rules that have shown up other places, including several examples in the CRB. Pathfinder is a complicated and fiddly enough game as it is without having FAQs come out and make text in the CRB and elsewhere incorrect.
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On the plus side, tiny-sized Adamantine Fullplate for your Mauler Familiar just became very affordable.Except I think there's questions or rules against familiars wearing armor.Not really:
By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for a list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its feats for Extra Item Slot for free. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items and activate ioun stones.
Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel
Link
So if you give your familiar Extra Item Slot (Armor)
It can use magical armor.
I suppose there is an open question of whether it can use *non-magical* armor without needing the extra item slot. But if you were going to go this route, you probably will want the armor to be magic anyway.
SO that was it, they couldn't wear armor without the feat. I just knew there was something strange around it.
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this to me is the prime example of why is so dumb rule, that the base armor now is more than the entire life savings of a quite high level charcter. They effective said, "no large+ gear of spacial materials are allowed."Meh, I can live with that. 10.650 extra vs 84.000 extra. The 10k I can spare, the 84k I can't :PYou'd still pay the premium for nonhumanoid shape, because Fitting only mentions size not shape.So, I'd be able to buy a medium humanoid +1 fitting noqual fullplate (1.500 armor + 150 masterwork + 12.000 noqual + 5.000 noqual extra cost for enchanting + 1.000 enchanting + 2.000 fitting) for 21650 and get my huge mammoth to wear it?
Or do I have to go for a medium non-humanoid version which will run me 13.650 extra for a total of 35.300, which is still affordable, I should have enough gold spare to afford that.
I cannot afford the difference between the price I currently paid (24.650) and what it's under the few FAQ (109.200, which incidently is more than the wealth by level of a 12th level character).
Working as intended now.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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My heartburn isn't over the specific cost, or even what the specific rule is. (I don't have any armored animal companions, so I don't have a horse, or a dinosaur, or an elephant) in this race. My heartburn is over the fact that this FAQ contradicts lots of rules that have shown up other places, including several examples in the CRB. Pathfinder is a complicated and fiddly enough game as it is without having FAQs come out and make text in the CRB and elsewhere incorrect.
No it doesn't. In the threads where this has come up, people have gone looking again and again for examples. The only example found so far has been the pricing on a chronicle sheet, and it matches this FAQ.
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I'm just quite baffled as to why they thought this answer was a good idea.Can we start a petition to get the FAQ overturned? Because as written it's a massive **** to companions.considering they waited 15 years to put it into effect i doubt that.
Its a good idea, because this is how pricing should always have been done. It is now working as intended.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I'm not getting the heartburn this is causing, at least as far as armor for companions is concerned. Large Darkleaf Lamellar Barding used to (arguably) cost 990 gp (60 for the Lamellar x 4 for nonhumanoid = 240 + 750 for the Darkleaf = 990). Now it costs 3240 gp (60 for the Lamellar + 750 for Darkleaf = 810 x 4 for nonhumanoid = 3240). This for +4 to AC, no ACP (and hence no proficiency required), can be enchanted, doesn't require burning a feat for Extra Item Slot, stacks with the Natural Armor and Dex bonus that many companions already have in abundance, etc. Compared to most other ways of boosting AC this still seems cheap. Even a Mammoth Rider's Huge barding will only cost 6480 gp before enchanting. What's the big deal?
No need for hypotheticals. My axebeak with the Charger archetype only has light armor proficiency, but because of the archetype can still wear a +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate (+7 AC total) without ACP. Before, this cost me 6600. Now it costs 18600.
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On the flip side, is does make a few enemies easier to fight. Huge+ NPCs with weapon and armor are fairly rare, but this effectively disarms them as they can't afford their weapon anymore. (Large can probably still afford it)
If they want to force this on us, it has to be a two-way street.
Not really. They can kit the NPCs with whatever they need to in order to make it a challenging encounter (if that's the goal).
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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And it only gets worse from there. If the armor was already +2 for 9000 now you're down 2 AC and have back 4300, not enough to increase the armor to +3. And now the AC will always be down 2 armor for having 4300. That's a lot of armor for a cheap price.Yet another FAQ that seems to punish people using AC. Getting rid of the Fitting enchantment will just make people with ACs even more disadvantaged on top of the magic item rules. It also means taking Mammoth Rider becomes a terrible fit for PFS due to gold limitations.
Why does campaign leadership hate my wolf?
RIP Animal Companions that can take a hit.Seriously? Let's put this in perspective.
Let's assume you had been using this to get a Mithral Kikko so that your wolf can have the best armor possible with no Armor Check Penalty.
By 9th level, a wolf has a +8 natural armor bonus, +1 dex, -1 size, +1 Mith-Kikko gives it +6 extra, for ~6000 gp.
So that is AC 24 from just that (not counting barkskin, etc)
With this FAQ, you the best armor you can get with no AC, is now MW studded Leather, at 700 gp. Upgrade that to +2 for a total of 4700 for a +5 Armor bonus.
AC 23. You lost 1 AC, and gained back 1300 gp.
That is kind of the point. Previously, it cost 11,000 to go from +8 armor, to +15 armor. That is way cheaper than any similar armor bonus anywhere in Pathfinder,
Now it costs 9,700 to go from +8 Armor to +14 armor. Still cheaper than any equivalent boost.
By the way, +3 is only 5000 more than +2, so you spend 700 GP, and you are back down to -1 to AC.
Also it gets even worse if you went and invested the feats to get mithral full plate for something with less good dex, to actually have GOOD AC for the companion. As now the price has shot out of what you can reasonably afford in PFS at 42,000 instead of 15,000. One is 1/3 a lv9's wealth, the other is basically all of it, and you might not even be able to buy it cause it requires 49 fame. for just the mundane armor. That's a LOT of AC gone
Mithral Full Plate + Medium armor prof:
15,000 gp, +9 AC, -3 ACP+3 MW Mountain Pattern
10,600 gp, +9 AC, -3 ACP
Nope. Actually you are better off there, no loss of AC.
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My heartburn isn't over the specific cost, or even what the specific rule is. (I don't have any armored animal companions, so I don't have a horse, or a dinosaur, or an elephant) in this race. My heartburn is over the fact that this FAQ contradicts lots of rules that have shown up other places, including several examples in the CRB. Pathfinder is a complicated and fiddly enough game as it is without having FAQs come out and make text in the CRB and elsewhere incorrect.No it doesn't. In the threads where this has come up, people have gone looking again and again for examples. The only example found so far has been the pricing on a chronicle sheet, and it matches this FAQ.
Longsword, Cold Iron Masterwork on page 474 of the Core Rulebook? That's the first example that comes to mind. Costs 330 gp.
I'm not even that concerned with the pricing of animal companion barding. I'm irritated that now I have to dig through 30+ characters and figure out which of them happens to have a masterwork cold iron thing and rebuild them to account for the near-doubling in price.
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Also, mundane armor does not require fame, it is always available.
Only for small through large. Tiny and huge require fame.
"All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from
Chapter 6 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook,
including items for Small and Large characters."
Says nothing about including tiny or huge so it would seem it doesn't, since it's making the special call out for small and large. If tiny and huge were meant to be included you'd have used different wording.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, mundane armor does not require fame, it is always available.Only for small through large. Tiny and huge require fame.
"All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from
Chapter 6 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook,
including items for Small and Large characters."Says nothing about including tiny or huge so it would seem it doesn't, since it's making the special call out for small and large. If tiny and huge were meant to be included you'd have used different wording.
Good Point
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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I am with the no big deal side of this. Yes it hurts some animal companions.
But then again, my tiger only wears +1 Studded leather and I buff him the rest of the way. Quick math I am only down 400-500 gp. So be it.
Plus, moving around in shiny mithral armor is bad for Ki'lala to go hunt in. Gives away her position.
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I'm not getting the heartburn this is causing, at least as far as armor for companions is concerned. Large Darkleaf Lamellar Barding used to (arguably) cost 990 gp (60 for the Lamellar x 4 for nonhumanoid = 240 + 750 for the Darkleaf = 990). Now it costs 3240 gp (60 for the Lamellar + 750 for Darkleaf = 810 x 4 for nonhumanoid = 3240). This for +4 to AC, no ACP (and hence no proficiency required), can be enchanted, doesn't require burning a feat for Extra Item Slot, stacks with the Natural Armor and Dex bonus that many companions already have in abundance, etc. Compared to most other ways of boosting AC this still seems cheap. Even a Mammoth Rider's Huge barding will only cost 6480 gp before enchanting. What's the big deal?No need for hypotheticals. My axebeak with the Charger archetype only has light armor proficiency, but because of the archetype can still wear a +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate (+7 AC total) without ACP. Before, this cost me 6600. Now it costs 18600.
Doesn't this armor still have an ACP of 1? Or are you calculating it as: 4 for the base armor, reduced by 1 for masterwork, -3 for Mithral = ACP 0? I thought I had seen somewhere that the masterwork benefit was already included in the Mithral one...
In any case, I certainly see how a cost increase of 12k hurts, but again, even at the new price, you are still paying only slightly about 2.5k per AC bump. Given that most companions also have substantial natural armor, this still seems reasonable to me. As I said upthread, it shouldn't be easy for a companion to have a cheaper and better AC than a PC.
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Mithral Full Plate + Medium armor prof:
15,000 gp, +9 AC, -3 ACP
+3 MW Mountain Pattern
10,600 gp, +9 AC, -3 ACPNope. Actually you are better off there, no loss of AC.
First full plate requires heavy armor prof feat.
Until you go to improve the AC
get 1 more AC
16,000 vs 17,600
get 2 more AC
19,000 vs 25,600 Yeah, you're very different.
get 3 more AC
26,000 vs not possible
So you lose out on 1 AC with this. If people are getting better armor it's cause they want high armor and so you can just compare the lowest price point but assume that they continue to invest in it to see the difference.
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masterwork transformation won't go around it.
The material component for the spell is magical reagents worth the cost difference between a normal item and the equivalent masterwork item (typically 300 gp for a weapon, 150 gp for armor, or 50 gp for a tool).
being written by puny medium bipeds, they consider "typically" for a bipedal medium humanoid. With the new cost difference , you'd have to pay more.
I was more referring to the added complexity of the back-and-forth on items which have been one cost in the CRB since day 1 matching the specified costs listed in the spell and then directly contradicted by the FAQ for cold iron medium weapons being a greater annoyance than its worth for a FAQ than addressing the size adjustments. Goes back to the "stealth second edition" complaints as the cost of a cold iron longsword was about the furthest thing from a "Frequently Asked Question" I can think of as it's price is specified (and now apparently wrong after this FAQ) in the CRB.
I should have taken more time and phrased my post better instead of posting when I was distracted by work.
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My heartburn isn't over the specific cost, or even what the specific rule is. (I don't have any armored animal companions, so I don't have a horse, or a dinosaur, or an elephant) in this race. My heartburn is over the fact that this FAQ contradicts lots of rules that have shown up other places, including several examples in the CRB. Pathfinder is a complicated and fiddly enough game as it is without having FAQs come out and make text in the CRB and elsewhere incorrect.No it doesn't. In the threads where this has come up, people have gone looking again and again for examples. The only example found so far has been the pricing on a chronicle sheet, and it matches this FAQ.Longsword, Cold Iron Masterwork on page 474 of the Core Rulebook? That's the first example that comes to mind. Costs 330 gp.
I'm not even that concerned with the pricing of animal companion barding. I'm irritated that now I have to dig through 30+ characters and figure out which of them happens to have a masterwork cold iron thing and rebuild them to account for the near-doubling in price.
There's been numerous guesses (They forgot it's pricing is a multiplier itself, it specifies "normal counterpart", etc) brought forth regarding CI and why it's an outlier but it's safe to say that it functions like other special materials, that would apply it before other multipliers.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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My heartburn isn't over the specific cost, or even what the specific rule is. (I don't have any armored animal companions, so I don't have a horse, or a dinosaur, or an elephant) in this race. My heartburn is over the fact that this FAQ contradicts lots of rules that have shown up other places, including several examples in the CRB. Pathfinder is a complicated and fiddly enough game as it is without having FAQs come out and make text in the CRB and elsewhere incorrect.No it doesn't. In the threads where this has come up, people have gone looking again and again for examples. The only example found so far has been the pricing on a chronicle sheet, and it matches this FAQ.Longsword, Cold Iron Masterwork on page 474 of the Core Rulebook? That's the first example that comes to mind. Costs 330 gp.
I'm not even that concerned with the pricing of animal companion barding. I'm irritated that now I have to dig through 30+ characters and figure out which of them happens to have a masterwork cold iron thing and rebuild them to account for the near-doubling in price.
True, originally, people were only looking at size / shape changes. Hence my statement about the lack of example.
However you have a valid point about cold iron that would be worth the development team addressing. Possibly masterwork should be treated like enchantment bonuses?