People are spending some crazy money on their ACs. Don't they know that they come back bigger and better after each adventure. ;)
The wand of Mage Armor (or oil) is probably the best bet going forward.
Mithril Chain is just way too expensive now.
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So we're putting a price on our friends lives now ? How much did YOUR armor cost?
Mithril Chain is just way too expensive now.
About 1/2 to 1/3 as much, and had enough Fame/Prestige at the time too.
For home games, who cares? You have as much money as the GM gives you. For PFS, the rules limit you substantially more.
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So we're putting a price on our friends lives now ? How much did YOUR armor cost?
Mithril Chain is just way too expensive now.
I'm pretty sure that all my characters with an animal companion have spent FAR more on the companions armor on their own.
No. I lie. My snake companion only benefits from the wand of mage armor :-)
And most of them cast shield companion too :-).
You're not the only one who likes Fluffy :-)
So we're putting a price on our friends lives now ? How much did YOUR armor cost?
Mithril Chain is just way too expensive now.
5,400 gold. Really I am thinking that perhaps spending the cash on scrolls of Stone Skin and/or Protection from Energy (Fire) might be a better investment for my AC in the long run.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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And this archetype's impact is a valuable piece of information in our assessing quite how the organized play campaign approaches and adapts to this FAQ.Charger archetype gives me Barding Training. At level 3 I raise the dex cap and lower the ACP by one, and then another at level 9.I'm not getting the heartburn this is causing, at least as far as armor for companions is concerned. Large Darkleaf Lamellar Barding used to (arguably) cost 990 gp (60 for the Lamellar x 4 for nonhumanoid = 240 + 750 for the Darkleaf = 990). Now it costs 3240 gp (60 for the Lamellar + 750 for Darkleaf = 810 x 4 for nonhumanoid = 3240). This for +4 to AC, no ACP (and hence no proficiency required), can be enchanted, doesn't require burning a feat for Extra Item Slot, stacks with the Natural Armor and Dex bonus that many companions already have in abundance, etc. Compared to most other ways of boosting AC this still seems cheap. Even a Mammoth Rider's Huge barding will only cost 6480 gp before enchanting. What's the big deal?No need for hypotheticals. My axebeak with the Charger archetype only has light armor proficiency, but because of the archetype can still wear a +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate (+7 AC total) without ACP. Before, this cost me 6600. Now it costs 18600.Doesn't this armor still have an ACP of 1? Or are you calculating it as: 4 for the base armor, reduced by 1 for masterwork, -3 for Mithral = ACP 0? I thought I had seen somewhere that the masterwork benefit was already included in the Mithral one...
In any case, I certainly see how a cost increase of 12k hurts, but again, even at the new price, you are still paying only slightly about 2.5k per AC bump. Given that most companions also have substantial natural armor, this still seems reasonable to me. As I said upthread, it shouldn't be easy for a companion to have a cheaper and better AC than a PC.
Interesting that you focus on this particular nugget in the discussion.
The archetype is interesting, because it allows you to overcome the downsides of armor in another way than using special materials. But there's an opportunity cost; you can't take any other archetypes, or keep a vanilla companion. And the abilities you're trading away are significant (Evasion, Multiattack, Devotion).
The new FAQ introduces a huge cost hike for special materials. I think it might goad people towards this archetype, reducing diversity.
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I am slightly confused about all the complaints that stuff got more expensive. As far as i know that was always the way it was supposed to work.
While that may be the case for you and a few others
Ultimate Equipment, page 114:
ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES: The cost of armor for
non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are
neither Small nor Medium, varies (see page 15). The cost
of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement
remains the same.
Also, the vast majority of examples of items made masterwork or cold iron do not follow this formula.
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Stone (1/4) and obsidian (1/2) weapons just became really cheap ways to get access to masterwork quality weapons at early levels too!
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Yeah, the more I look at it, the more I think MW should have been left out of the multiplication / division, just like magical bonuses.Except that it's baked into the costs for OTHER special materials. Do you separate the 150gp "masterwork" portion from the charge for mithral armor? At that point, you start either getting contradictions either way you rule it, or just having a collection of special case rulings.
No, you clearly will just remove the masterwork quality for those materials, forcing you to still make them masterwork. Cause that will make no sense and nerf players. The perfect response!
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I am slightly confused about all the complaints that stuff got more expensive. As far as i know that was always the way it was supposed to work.
While that may be the case for you and a few others
Ultimate Equipment, page 114:
ARMOR FOR UNUSUAL CREATURES: The cost of armor for
non-humanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are
neither Small nor Medium, varies (see page 15). The cost
of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement
remains the same.Also, the vast majority of examples of items made masterwork or cold iron do not follow this formula.
I think folks who believe it "always worked that way" was referring to the special materials. Not masterwork quality.
And the FAQ is not multiplying the magical stuff.
So the only surprise to me is that they included masterwork in the FAQ.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I am mostly concerned for my Paladin, who uses object possession to animate and control a huge statue. I was already using the fitting enchantment so that one suit of armor would suffice for both the statue and walking around without the statue (not at the same time). I'm worried that in trying to stop Tiny Armor Exploits with the Fitting enchantment, they will also mess up my more traditional use of it.
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I am mostly concerned for my Paladin, who uses object possession to animate and control a huge statue. I was already using the fitting enchantment so that one suit of armor would suffice for both the statue and walking around without the statue (not at the same time). I'm worried that in trying to stop Tiny Armor Exploits with the Fitting enchantment, they will also mess up my more traditional use of it.
I don't think that qualifies as a traditional use.
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My question, at least for the time being, is how quickly we should enforce this into PFS?
From reading John's comment, it seems (could be wrong) he did not know this was coming and it may cause some rulings in PFS to be developed, possibly not, but possibly so.
I really don't want some player to do a whole "well then I will just use fitting on all my AC's armor" or "well then this just changed the whole economics of my build, I need to redo EVERYTHING" then have some ruling for PFS happen in a couple days (or in the new field guide which should be due any time now) that invalidates all the changes they just made causing a second rebuild.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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My question, at least for the time being, is how quickly we should enforce this into PFS?
From reading John's comment, it seems (could be wrong) he did not know this was coming and it may cause some rulings in PFS to be developed, possibly not, but possibly so.
I really don't want some player to do a whole "well then I will just use fitting on all my AC's armor" or "well then this just changed the whole economics of my build, I need to redo EVERYTHING" then have some ruling for PFS happen in a couple days (or in the new field guide which should be due any time now) that invalidates all the changes they just made causing a second rebuild.
We need some guidance on the current "living on borrowed time" situation.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I am mostly concerned for my Paladin, who uses object possession to animate and control a huge statue. I was already using the fitting enchantment so that one suit of armor would suffice for both the statue and walking around without the statue (not at the same time). I'm worried that in trying to stop Tiny Armor Exploits with the Fitting enchantment, they will also mess up my more traditional use of it.I don't think that qualifies as a traditional use.
Oh? I would think having the same suit of armor available to multiple sizes of creatures is exactly what the enchantment is intended for.
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Oh? I would think having the same suit of armor available to multiple sizes of creatures is exactly what the enchantment is intended for.
its for looting the giant armor off of Skivnarg, the frost giant and being able to wear it. Not protecting giant statue combat drones.
Now why bother just sell Skivnarg's armor (even better if its a special material) and make a better you sized armor.
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So am I the only one with more than 25 PCs that isn't affected at all by this new FAQ?
I guess it's because my only animal companion will never be bigger than medium. And I never bother with masterwork on cold iron weapons, since I only carry them as backups and never plan to enchant them.
Actually, I'll have to check the AC's armor. That one might be affected, despite being so small, if the masterwork cost has to be doubled. I think I can afford the extra 150 gp.
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Now why bother just sell Skivnarg's armor (even better if its a special material) and make a better you sized armor.In PFS we can't keep the loot we find. We turn it in and get an amount of gold determined by the quartermaster.
And just who is that quartermaster, anyway? Has anyone ever met him?
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And just who is that quartermaster, anyway? Has anyone ever met him?
A woman in a frumpy coat and glasses shuffles in.
"Hi! I'm Doris! I work for you... Um, in accounting? I'm the person who inventories your barrels of Cure Light and Infernal Healing wands. I work for you!"
___
Fromper, I would love that. Doris "from Accounting" is the alter ego of Doom Girl, my mysterious avenger swashbuckler. I would love for her to someday meet her "boss."
Now why bother just sell Skivnarg's armor (even better if its a special material) and make a better you sized armor.Time.
It get's the armor into the field faster - all enchantments cost TIME as well as money, and sometimes you need the protection sooner than you need the cash.
We still have to stop and wait on that enchantment to be put on the armor, whereas a shop might stock medium sized armor.
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Mysterious Avenger? Is that a vigilante-ish dual identity archetype? I haven't looked at Ultimate Intrigue at all, so I know almost nothing about vigilantes or any other class archetypes that might resemble them.
Because now you've got me thinking of a vigilante-ish quartermaster. He's a quartermaster by day, Pathfinder field agent by night! Could be hard to ever leave Absalom on missions, though.
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Why the heck would Skivnarg be motivated to have that enchant on his armor? I think a character operating at two different sizes, but not by typical polymorph is a pretty apt use.
It's not for skivnarg. Its for adventurers dragging his armor back to town
Although, if Skivnarg killed an adventurer with nice armor , he might go and get the enchant on it so he could wear it. Its the circle of life...
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We still have to stop and wait on that enchantment to be put on the armor, whereas a shop might stock medium sized armor.Now why bother just sell Skivnarg's armor (even better if its a special material) and make a better you sized armor.Time.
It get's the armor into the field faster - all enchantments cost TIME as well as money, and sometimes you need the protection sooner than you need the cash.
ha! the medium sized stuff flies off the rack, can't hardly keep it in stock. It's the Plus sizes that we always have an overstock in - and the really Tiny sizes, thou now that we've started putting this enchantment on them the Tiny's are getting to really be in demand more too. Going to a wedding and want to have a set of armor available? drop a fist sized breast plate into your handbag and head on out! Just the thing for when the undead crash the party...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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Fromper, I am with you on this. My only character that is affected by it is my -1 and maybe a total of 450gp for large +1 studded for my battle kitten.
I thought this was pathfinder not "Pimp My Pet"
EDIT: Another thing, in reference to buying tiny armor and then enhancement for fitting. In the CRB, tiny armor has their armor bonus divided by 2 . So, it may not work as theorized, since armor growing larger does not increase it's armor bonus.
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I've got at least 5 or 6 affected. Only one, though, is someone with an animal companion, and he's got enough gold to handle the price increase no problem. What I'd be affected by is all the martials carrying around masterwork cold iron equipment that I need to find and re-price before I forget about it.
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So am I the only one with more than 25 PCs that isn't affected at all by this new FAQ?I don't know about "only one", but considering I have zero in >20 characters...
I have 38 characters. 1 of which would be affected, but are currently retired (level 19 Alchemist/Cavalier with an Axe Beak) and another I could play but the AC is more a mount and doesn't participate in combat much (Level 16 Druid w/ a Pteranodon) and another that I'll have to check if the Hellknight Leather needs repricing (Level 14 Hunter/Hellknight w/ a Moose).
Other than that, I have one other level 3 character (mad dog barbarian with a bear) that doesn't have armor on the AC yet.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have to check my son's character. He has a large wolf. I don't recall how I priced the +1 mithral chainshirt but I believe I priced it as the FAQ now says it should be priced.
I don't think I have any magic cold iron weapons. The extra 2,000 to put an enhancement is a show stopper for me.
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Mysterious Avenger? Is that a vigilante-ish dual identity archetype? I haven't looked at Ultimate Intrigue at all, so I know almost nothing about vigilantes or any other class archetypes that might resemble them.
Actually, the Mysterious Avenger has been out there for quite a long while. Two years ago, I made a character with that archetype to portray a wannabe superhero with a Scorpion Whip (use the weapon of choice for the Gnoll Slavers against them). I had a lot of fun with my concept in PFS, and then the Vigilante came out... And at the present day everyone thinks it is some strange Vigilante-like archetype, as if it came around the block first...
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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So am I the only one with more than 25 PCs that isn't affected at all by this new FAQ?
I guess it's because my only animal companion will never be bigger than medium. And I never bother with masterwork on cold iron weapons, since I only carry them as backups and never plan to enchant them.
Actually, I'll have to check the AC's armor. That one might be affected, despite being so small, if the masterwork cost has to be doubled. I think I can afford the extra 150 gp.
That's fair to bring up. I talked about the faq at my table last night, and not many characters are actually affected. (The druid hadn't bought barding for his recently larged wolf yet, but is now debating masterwork or not. For himself, Wild armor is now preferable to specific barding again). One other player said he might have a character affected.
Of my 26 characters, I've got 8 characters affected that I can think of, ranging from some gold-plated vanity things to mount barding and statue armor. There's probably other characters with incidental cold iron stuff that I'm not remembering. For most it's stuff I can do without or a few hundred gold. Only two (the axe-beak barding and possibly the statue) are affected more than a couple thousand. But the bill for each of those two could be at least 20k, so for them it's pretty important.
Summary: Most aren't affected or have minor affect, but for the other few, it hits extremely hard.
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I'm one of those hit extremely hard, 85.000 hard if the FAQ stays as is as and Fitting gets kicked out as legal option.
As in, I'll just have to completely redo my animal companions armor because I can't afford it anymore, and I'm not even sure I'd actually have enough fame to purchase it (can't remember if I broke 67 fame, which is what I'd need to purchase a 109.200 gp non-always available armor).
Edit: 59 fame, so nope, can't even buy the armor under the current FAQ.
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Nearly all of my martials have masterwork cold iron weapons as backup, so I suppose I get those refunded 100%, according to the Guide.
My Necromancer will just get a wand of Mage Armor for his animated minions. I was contemplating Fitting armor. I might still depending on how the Campaign Clarification gets issued.
My 13th level Saurian Shaman still needs to replace his Spinosaurus (shows how long it's been since I played him!), so I'll reassess what my next Companion is after this ruling.
My Beast Rider Cavalier and his large-sized Owlbear were already 90% retired; this will probably be the final nail in their coffin.
My Magus gets money back for his Quasit's Mithral Chain Shirt.
My 5th level Paladin is hurt the most, though. He doesn't have the extra 3000gp for his large-sized Adamantine Bastard Sword. I would normally just GM credit him until he did, but there's a Tier 1-5 scenario I still want to play him in. I guess I'll use a backup weapon.
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So am I the only one with more than 25 PCs that isn't affected at all by this new FAQ?I don't know about "only one", but considering I have zero in >20 characters...
I don't think I have any characters effected either other than the odd medium sized cold iron weapon which I'm not even sure is effected.
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So am I the only one with more than 25 PCs that isn't affected at all by this new FAQ?
I guess it's because my only animal companion will never be bigger than medium. And I never bother with masterwork on cold iron weapons, since I only carry them as backups and never plan to enchant them.
I think I'm in the clear as well.