Opponents of the Whispering Way


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


The undead utopia for the Whispering Way concludes with the absence of living creatures, a reason that undead who prey upon the living sometimes oppose its adherents. Luvick Siervage, the age old vampire, is one such adversary known for his resistance against the infamous Whispering Tyrant, Tar-Baphon.

But is there any sort of organized form of this resistance found in Golarion? Any societies, networks or other methodical groups of undead fighting the Whispering Way? Is it otherwise pockets of rivals formed from among the feeders, independent in action from the others? And after all, why would vampires and ghouls support followers of the Way, knowing how it must end if they meet their goal?

Secondarily, beyond undead rebels, how is the organization viewed by evil power players like Queen Abrogail or Carmilla Caliphvaso? Do they tend to oppose it because of the group's ultimate goals? Or use them as pawns for short term gain that might be had -- the future world of undead be damned, if it ever comes to it?

Scarab Sages

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The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye is specifically known for opposing the Whispering Way, among other activities.


The Knights of Ozem are an Iomedaean Knightly Order dedicated to fighting the Whispering tyrant, and the Whispering way.

And as for Luvick, I think his opposition to the Whispering way boils down to "You want to kill all our food". Otherwise... I guess the other big undead power group would be Geb, but I don't think there's been anything written on their relationship with the Way (other than that, IIRC, Arazni is now hanging out there)

Scarab Sages

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One of the biggest things about the Usalav / Lastwall region is that the Inner Sea has by and large forgot about the setting's primary BBEG being locked away behind a magical seal. Historians can lament about Tar Baphon's reign of terror as a human, or how the Whispering Tyrant rampaged across the Encarthen area willy nilly before Iomedae took it upon herself to rid the world of the Lich. It's all thousand year old myth to most groups, and evil rulers are likely no different.

Plus, the Whispering Way is a super secret society, one which fell out of vogue some 900 years prior to World Guide Default Year. What adherents managed to survive the Shining Crusade whispered their way into obscurity as their Patron sat trapped in his throne beneath Gallowspire. Assuming that the rulers of, say, Qadira are even aware that the Way still operates, most of them have bigger fish to fry than a sect that has failed for nearly a millennium to bring back its leader.

If Abrogail even considers a mythical figure returning possible, she probably largely ignores the Whispering Way, if she is even aware of them. The same likely goes for nearly every other evil ruler save Aranzi and the rulers of Geb-adjacent nations. She, however, probably has a grudge against them, and while they are an open faction there, I'm sure they have to work extra hard to placate one of their most prominent victims.


archmagi1 wrote:
One of the biggest things about the Usalav / Lastwall region is that the Inner Sea has by and large forgot about the setting's primary BBEG being locked away behind a magical seal.

Okay, so the argument goes that The Whispering Way is but a shadow of its former threat, and most have forgotten or become lazy about the menace. I can see this reasoning with living generations, but "feeder" undead might be less forgetful considering the existential threat the Way presents to them.

Of course, if the Way is inconsequential, now or ever, they too might be inclined to ignore its adherents. Is that the state of the Way then -- bordering trivial and perhaps even mocked by those who are aware? As you say, it's fallen into both failure and obscurity.

Scarab Sages

I don't know if near trivial is the state of the Way itself, but from meta context it seems to be the way that those who could or should know about them don't seem too concerned. Book 6 of Carrion Crown has both Way adherents and Adavion who just wants to be Tar-Baphon. But in the same breath, there are tons of vampires (feeder undead) in book 5 that don't really seem too hell bent on going and sweeping up the Way in the neighboring county. Though realistically, the underestimation / doomed to obscurity is one of the tropes that ancient evil cults tend to have. That is right up until they hatch their master plan and everyone around is like "Wait, Billy Bob was really some undeath cultist?"


Midnight Anarch wrote:
But is there any sort of organized form of this resistance found in Golarion? Any societies, networks or other methodical groups of undead fighting the Whispering Way? Is it otherwise pockets of rivals formed from among the feeders, independent in action from the others? And after all, why would vampires and ghouls support followers of the Way, knowing how it must end if they meet their goal?

Because they're not going to end life on Golarion, and their money can be exchanged for goods and services. It was good enough reason for Ramoska Arkminos.

What do the hungry dead gain from actively opposing the Whiserping Way?


Amedras wrote:
Midnight Anarch wrote:
But is there any sort of organized form of this resistance found in Golarion? Any societies, networks or other methodical groups of undead fighting the Whispering Way? Is it otherwise pockets of rivals formed from among the feeders, independent in action from the others? And after all, why would vampires and ghouls support followers of the Way, knowing how it must end if they meet their goal?

Because they're not going to end life on Golarion, and their money can be exchanged for goods and services. It was good enough reason for Ramoska Arkminos.

What do the hungry dead gain from actively opposing the Whiserping Way?

A world where humans still exist to eat. The end goal of the Whispering Way, as far as I understand, is to convert every living thing in the world into undead.

What are vampires supposed to eat? Rats? That's very unhygienic! And how are ghouls supposed to get fresh corpses to eat if everyone's already dead?


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye is specifically known for opposing the Whispering Way, among other activities.

Wow I had that bit of lore totally wrong! I thought they were part of the Whispering Way or something like that. Duh oh...


Ventnor wrote:


A world where humans still exist to eat. The end goal of the Whispering Way, as far as I understand, is to convert every living thing in the world into undead.

What are vampires supposed to eat? Rats? That's very unhygienic! And how are ghouls supposed to get fresh corpses to eat if everyone's already dead?

I think Amedras meant that those vampires and ghouls are thinking that the WW will never actually succeed, but in its current struggle it is a fine and helpful "pro-undead" organization.


It would be a fair bet that the Whispering Way's presence in Geb would be a hot button topic, much akin to real life political parties.


Sayt wrote:
And as for Luvick, I think his opposition to the Whispering way boils down to "You want to kill all our food". Otherwise... I guess the other big undead power group would be Geb, but I don't think there's been anything written on their relationship with the Way (other than that, IIRC, Arazni is now hanging out there)

I seem to recall that a great repository of the lore and knowledge of the Whispering Way is in Geb, and isn't exactly hidden.

Midnight Anarch wrote:
Secondarily, beyond undead rebels, how is the organization viewed by evil power players like Queen Abrogail or Carmilla Caliphvaso? Do they tend to oppose it because of the group's ultimate goals?

I do believe that The Whispering Way being banned is one of the few things that even vehemently opposed nations can all agree on.

Midnight Anarch wrote:
Or use them as pawns for short term gain that might be had -- the future world of undead be damned, if it ever comes to it?

Eh? They wouldn't use them as pawns if they seriously believed that they had a real chance of accomplishing any goals undesirable to them. At least the ones with two brain cells to rub together would have some form of contingency, even if it's just relying on being personally too strong to be dislodged by them.

And they wouldn't be proper card-carrying villains if they didn't have the ego to believe their contingencies would work.


Coidzor wrote:
Midnight Anarch wrote:
Or use them as pawns for short term gain that might be had -- the future world of undead be damned, if it ever comes to it?

Eh? They wouldn't use them as pawns if they seriously believed that they had a real chance of accomplishing any goals undesirable to them. At least the ones with two brain cells to rub together would have some form of contingency, even if it's just relying on being personally too strong to be dislodged by them.

And they wouldn't be proper card-carrying villains if they didn't have the ego to believe their contingencies would work.

If Abrogail thought there was a small chance the Way might succeed but that even such a day were thousands or at least hundreds of years from the current, why would she care? That's someone else's problem. In the meantime, she could probably put to use a few future-liches to propel her more immediate concerns, promising them knowledge or power that will aid their research in return for their service -- as "loyal" Thrune agents or the like.

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