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I recently played a PFS scenario where my aetherkineticist confirmed a critical hit with telekinetic blast (spell-like ability with the force descriptor). However, the GM denied me the critical hit on the basis that the incorporeal ability says only ghost touch weapons can critically hit a incorporeal creature. But the force descriptor says that force effects affect an incorporeal creature as if they were corporeal...
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The incorporeal subtype is different from the incorporeal defensive ability (it is a superset of it). It is the subtype that makes it immune to critical hits.
[quopte=Incorporeal Subtype] An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
As written (at a time in which there were no force based attacks that had attack rolls), only a ghost touch weapon would let you do this. This is probably something that is actually FAQ worthy.
On one hand, you could argue that an incorporeal creature probably has not vital spots to hit, and I'd have been happy with that ruling, except for the specification that a ghost touch weapon actually can critically hit it.
In short, as the rules stand, your GM made an accurate call.
In a home game, it would be an acceptable house rule to allow a rolled force attack to critical an incorporeal creature.
Of course IMNSHO I think the occult classes are somewhat over powered anyway, so allowing them to also critical incorporeal creatures is probably unnecessary icing on their cakes. But that is another matter entirely.
While other answers touch on the matter of force effects, I do want to point out one thing:
telekinetic blast (spell-like ability with the force descriptor).
Telekinetic Blast does not have the force descriptor. It has the aether descriptor. These are distinct.
You need access to Force Blast in order to gain a kinetic blast with the force descriptor.
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As written (at a time in which there were no force based attacks that had attack rolls), only a ghost touch weapon would let you do this. This is probably something that is actually FAQ worthy.
Actually, spiritual weapon is a force spell with an attack and was around when that was written. So don't let that argument be too strong in your thinking.
I just think it wasn't thought of because it was rare so no rule was created for it. It is a good FAQ question.
I'd vote yes. If you deal full damage to ghosts, that should include your crit.
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I'd vote yes. If you deal full damage to ghosts, that should include your crit.
That may be how the rules should work, but currently they are clear that only Ghost Touch weapons can score critical hits on incorporeal critters.. It makes just as much sense for positive energy to be able to crit, but no such language was included for them either.
While other answers touch on the matter of force effects, I do want to point out one thing:
telekinetic blast (spell-like ability with the force descriptor).Telekinetic Blast does not have the force descriptor. It has the aether descriptor. These are distinct.
You need access to Force Blast in order to gain a kinetic blast with the force descriptor.
Huh, you're quite right. That makes things even more confusing as the aether descriptor doesn't really exist.
That may be how the rules should work, but currently they are clear that only Ghost Touch weapons can score critical hits on incorporeal critters
That is NOT clear. That is a level of pedanticism that very rarely matches the right rules interpretation in the long run. You also have a direct contradiction with between "full damage" and "all your damage but not your crit"
It is perfectly "clear" that you cannot stealth through the bushes when there is a dwarf, 50 feet away because ""A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." because bushes grant concealment, not cover. But pedantic raw rarely trumps intent.
That may be how the rules should work, but currently they are clear that only Ghost Touch weapons can score critical hits on incorporeal critters
That is NOT clear. That is a level of pedanticism that very rarely matches the right rules interpretation in the long run. You also have a direct contradiction with between "full damage" and "all your damage but not your crit"
It is perfectly "clear" that you cannot stealth through the bushes when there is a dwarf, 50 feet away because ""A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." because bushes grant concealment, not cover. But pedantic raw rarely trumps intent.
You can do full damage but not crit an elemental, so I fail to see where this is some unclear corner case of pedantry. Force and positive energy do full damage. Ghost Touch does full damage and crits. Magic is funny that way.
You can do full damage but not crit an elemental, so I fail to see where this is some unclear corner case of pedantry. Force and positive energy do full damage. Ghost Touch does full damage and crits. Magic is funny that way.
That may be how the rules should work, but currently they are clear that only Ghost Touch weapons can score critical hits on incorporeal critters
That is NOT clear. That is a level of pedanticism that very rarely matches the right rules interpretation in the long run. You also have a direct contradiction with between "full damage" and "all your damage but not your crit"
It is perfectly "clear" that you cannot stealth through the bushes when there is a dwarf, 50 feet away because ""A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." because bushes grant concealment, not cover. But pedantic raw rarely trumps intent.
Nothing allows you to crit an elemental. The rules make quite clear that Incorpreal creatures can be crited, but only under some circumstances.
So the comparison doesn't really work.
You can do full damage but not crit an elemental, so there comparison is apt. Just because there is nothing yet that can crit an elemental is irrelevant.
I believe the general rule as implied is that anything that treats an attack as both corporeal and incorporeal treats an incorporeal creature as corporeal and deals full damage and can critically strike. However, there's no unity in the language for such effects, so we have multiple abilities implied to do the same thing but with different language.
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects, as well as all force effects.
Where is the rule that says only ghost touch weapons allow crits and sneak attacks? What am I missing?
Here's the glossary page whence I copied those quotes.
EDIT:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
EDIT 2: Never mind. I see where there is an incorporeal subtype and an incorporeal special quality. Sigh.
Check the Incorporeal Subtype.
Yep. Got it. Was making Edit 2 when you posted.
Of course this begs the question of why both the subtype and the special quality were both needed, and why they differ subtly in descriptor. But ours is not to wonder why...
It's one of the trickier aspects, but ours is very much to wonder why. Unless you play Pathfinder Society, there's no problem tweaking strange rules that don't cover corner cases.
Unfortunately, it is something that needs clarified.
Check the Incorporeal Subtype.Yep. Got it. Was making Edit 2 when you posted.
Of course this begs the question of why both the subtype and the special quality were both needed, and why they differ subtly in descriptor. But ours is not to wonder why...
I agree with you, quibble ninja.