If the reason you can't be trip-locked is because you never left the prone position, then you never moved to get up. Even putting your hand under you to push up could be "tripped" and put you back on your butt. I was extrapolating that you don't move.
I could also fluff this as the characters rolls from flat on their back to lying on their stomach as preparation to stand-up that provokes, but is not yet in a trippable position.
If I can crawl 5', can I charge while prone? Charge says your movement can't be hindered. Does the 5' count as hindered even though we now agree it is just a different movement speed? It is not difficult terrain nor an obstacle (which charge calls out).What about if I have monkey moves which allows me to crawl at 1/2 my move speed? And if that works, why not climb? It moves at 1/4 or 1/2 my move speed.
Well first off, no because
You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
But I would also count that as restricted movement as it is not a listed native speed - rather it is a fraction of your base speed. Likewise I'd count swim/climb as restricted movement without a natural swim climb speed. If they did have a natural speed in those I'd allow a charge in that movement form. eg, I'd certainly allow a spider (or vampire) moving along a wall to charge a character standing next to that wall.
Neither rogue crawl or monkey moves says you get a crawl speed, just get to crawl at half movement speed. So again I'd consider that restricted movement, though in this case I wouldn't really argue with a GM on this point if he had a character do so - its not solidly defined enough in the rules.
Moving from one defined speed to another might be a little different.
This is actually the way I prefer movement as well. So to fix my above, after 20' of movement, then slowed, I'd still allow half of the remaining 10'. But it is not well defined in the rules if that is how it works, or if mixing movement modes in the same move action is even allowed (I think it is, but I know others have argued its not). I should have used a slightly altered example - moved 25', slowed, half of 5' is 2.5, rounded down to 0.
This would also apply to a partial move, trip, monkey style to continue moving ratio. Though as above I'd consider your movement impeded at that point as I don't consider that crawl speed a native movement mode like walking/climbing/swimming/flying.
And finally, I think this is important, does the trip stop charge, or is it being prone? For instance, I declare a charge. You trip me via AoO. I use monkey style to stand up from prone as a swift action. Swift actions can be taken in the middle of other actions as they act like free actions. To say I can't monkey style in the middle of a charge is the same as saying I can't talk in the middle of a charge or use Quick Draw.
This is a very interesting case. I'd probably rule just being prone stops the charge, but I can see that your actual movement distance was not effected here and that you could complete the action unimpeded. Given that, I'd probably have to lean in favor of RAW saying you could continue your charge in this case. (Even though this particular case doesn't feel right to me how it should work - but the rules occasionally get wonky like that when you combine enough rules elements together.).
Yeah once again I have to say there is a difference between happens before and action and happens before an action is completed.
Komoda, youn dont trip lock because the person is getting up and provokes an aoo. Not "is about to get up" or "has gotten up". Their action is get up. Tripping wouldn't prevent the action of getting up since tripping makes one prone and getting up ends the prone status.
Thats also why spells that provoke can be disrupted. It's not before the spell or.after the spell, as neither would need a concentration check. It's during
Even feats like bodyguard use aoo, but the action goes through if it still could. Just changes the target number to hit. But the action of "I hit something" still stands. You start to attack, the a.c. goes higher and you finish the roll to see if you hit at the new ac.
It doesn't happen before the action, just it's completion.
The charge example was a great one too. Clearly happens during the charge and them you check to see if you can complete. Being tripped, of course, you couldn't.
Look at potion drinking. Starts to drink potions. You get aoo. You can hit bottle. Bottle is ruined, cam no longer complete. Of it happens before that, how would you have a chance to hit that Bottle? You couldn't.
Absolutely happens during. It can't happen before a trigger because that would require 100% omniscience in 100% of all creatures.
Problem is the rules state it happens before the trigger.
Also, spells and them being interrupted are an exception, not the norm. The quote from Mr. Buhlman above (previous page) supports this claim.
But I get what you are saying. At some point it is all wonky. My belief is that as a game, it makes more sense to allow the player to use the least amount of action economy as that puts all the character's actions on par with each other. Otherwise, in game, it indicates that characters can react faster then their initial actions.
If the reason you can't be trip-locked is because you never left the prone position, then you never moved to get up. Even putting your hand under you to push up could be "tripped" and put you back on your butt. I was extrapolating that you don't move.I could also fluff this as the characters rolls from flat on their back to lying on their stomach as preparation to stand-up that provokes, but is not yet in a trippable position.
If I can crawl 5', can I charge while prone? Charge says your movement can't be hindered. Does the 5' count as hindered even though we now agree it is just a different movement speed? It is not difficult terrain nor an obstacle (which charge calls out).What about if I have monkey moves which allows me to crawl at 1/2 my move speed? And if that works, why not climb? It moves at 1/4 or 1/2 my move speed.
Well first off, no because
You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
But I would also count that as restricted movement as it is not a listed native speed - rather it is a fraction of your base speed. Likewise I'd count swim/climb as restricted movement without a natural swim climb speed. If they did have a natural speed in those I'd allow a charge in that movement form. eg, I'd certainly allow a spider (or vampire) moving along a wall to charge a character standing next to that wall.
Neither rogue crawl or monkey moves says you get a crawl speed, just get to crawl at half movement speed. So again I'd consider that restricted movement, though in this case I wouldn't really argue with a GM on this point if he had a character do so - its not solidly defined enough in the rules.
This is actually the way I prefer movement as well. So to fix my above, after 20' of movement, then slowed, I'd still allow half of the...
Moving from one defined speed to another might be a little different.
Makes sense but it is another thing I would like to see FAQ or a Dev opinion. Not because I want to be a jerk or need validation but because I am so interested in the theory behind it all.
For instance, it would basically be impossible to give rogue crawl or fast crawl a speed because the rule could never anticipate the original land speed of the character. Listing it as 1/2 move makes sense because faster characters would be able to crawl faster as well. So maybe that count as a speed. On the other hand, it would go against what we know about Climb and Swim. Both of these skills allow a character to move in those ways, but clearly do not have a speed as having any speed in either greatly affects skill checks. But there are no skill checks associated with crawl.
I think it is all very interesting. Thanks for the discussion, it has been fun.
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Problem is the rules state it happens before the trigger.
Where? Cause it's not in the Combat Section.
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
[i/]Performing a Distracting Act[/i]: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Nothing about "happening before the trigger" in there.
Readied Actions happen before the trigger, but AoOs "interrupt" the flow of actions, resolving immediately after being provoked. In other words, they interrupt the action, happening in the middle of the action, not before.
I should have said resolved....
As the game system is defined, there is no "in the mist of the action" phase. Every single action happens before or after another. No action of any kind happens at the exact same moment in time.
...Are you sure that "[e]very single action happens before or after another?"
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.It seems to me that those are three types of actions that could occur while other actions were taking place.
Thank you. You have resolved my confusion. ;)
These are not the questions I was asking. Let's rephrase:1. If I Manyshot which requires a full round action and get disarmed, do I lose the standard action (from "starting" a full attack) or the entire full round action? In other words, can I use a move action to do something since I'm not actually full attacking with a bow for the round? You definitely lose at least a standard action no matter what.
You don't lose a standard action because you are not performing a standard action. You are performing a full-round action.
Manyshot states: "When making a full attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows.
You must declare a full attack to be eligible for manyshot, and full attack is a full-round action. Checking the actions the table, full attack is the first action under Full-Round actions
So, you declare a full attack with your bow (a full-round action) then you declare you also apply manyshot feat. Now, before you start shooting, Aoo interrupts the flow and gets resolved first. If you're disarmed by the AoO, what you declared becomes illegal (you can't attack with your bow because you no longer have it, and manyshot immediately gets void since prereq is no longer met (you must attack with a bow).
Once the AoO ends, "then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)..
In this scenario, you lose your entire full-round action since is no longer valid. You may still be able to take free, swift or immediate actions if allowed or weren't spent before you initiated the full-round action, but your full-round action has already been "used".
In case the AoO doesn't make your declared action illegal (for example, the AoO is just a basic attack), then your declared action is still completely legit, so you can proceed.
2, if I Withdraw (full round action) but immediately get tripped before I even leave my square (due to a readied action), am I still locked into the entire Withdraw (which I can no longer do)? Or have I only lost *one* move action and can still use the other half of my turn for something else? You definitely lose a move action if you try to move and get tripped.
Same as #1, you declare an action type. The fact that the AoO (the trip) happens right in the beginning, in the midst of it, or right at the end doesn't change the type of action declared. The action declared isn't changed to a move one because you got tripped right practically at the beginning, since you already got benefits from it (your starting square counts as non-threatened)
So, to use withdraw you must declare "I use the withdraw action", and thus, you're declaring a full-round action. If you declare "I move twice" (two move actions), you are not subject to the benefits of withdraw (square you start counts as non-threatened).
I remember discussing Rapid Shot and Manyshot, years ago, and arguing for the idea that a character could use the first attack of Manyshot as a standard action and drop their iteratives to use a move action. However, I think by now, it's been settled that both Rapid Shot and Manyshot require locking into a full round action.
Effectively, both feats are really extra attack feats. Manyshot just combines two attacks into a simultaneous shot. And, making more than one attack requires a full round action.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
Those that would like to still use a move action after being disarmed due to an attack of opportunity when firing a bow should probably select Vital Strike, rather than Manyshot, if keeping that option open is really important.
Even better :)
I just realized the "take back" question has not been answered.
Problem is the rules state it happens before the trigger.
Also, spells and them being interrupted are an exception, not the norm. The quote from Mr. Buhlman above (previous page) supports this claim.
No, it happens before the trigger action resolves
No, spells are not an exception. Everything runs by exactly the same norm.
If a readied action interrupt or ruin your action, it is lost.
If a wizard drops a wall in your charge path; if a rogue trips you along your charge path; if a fight steps into your charge path..
you lose your action.
The reason this got faq'd by so many is that it is SO often handwaived away, to the detriment of the Readying player.
Suppose an animal companion is 60 feet from a wizard. He charges the wizard; Friendly fighter steps in at 20 feet. Often, GMS will let charging companion make a pounce on the intervening fighter.
No. You were charging the wizard; you moved more than half your movement, its a full round action to accomplish. A charge action commits you to moving to a specific square (the closest to the target}
It then entitles you to make your attack/pounce against your target.
Moving more than half your move doesn't entitle you to attack
why should it allow you to attack the fighter? And yes, you keep your minuses to AC for charging....
Let alone if you move less than half your move on the charge. Probably 80% of non-event refs will let you convert your action...
Problem is the rules state it happens before the trigger.
Also, spells and them being interrupted are an exception, not the norm. The quote from Mr. Buhlman above (previous page) supports this claim.
No, it happens before the trigger action resolves
No, spells are not an exception. Everything runs by exactly the same norm.
If a readied action interrupt or ruin your action, it is lost.
If a wizard drops a wall in your charge path; if a rogue trips you along your charge path; if a fight steps into your charge path..
you lose your action.
The reason this got faq'd by so many is that it is SO often handwaived away, to the detriment of the Readying player.
Suppose an animal companion is 60 feet from a wizard. He charges the wizard; Friendly fighter steps in at 20 feet. Often, GMS will let charging companion make a pounce on the intervening fighter.
No. You were charging the wizard; you moved more than half your movement, its a full round action to accomplish. A charge action commits you to moving to a specific square (the closest to the target}
It then entitles you to make your attack/pounce against your target.Moving more than half your move doesn't entitle you to attack
why should it allow you to attack the fighter? And yes, you keep your minuses to AC for charging....Let alone if you move less than half your move on the charge. Probably 80% of non-event refs will let you convert your action...
The reason this comes up so often is because:
1: The Devs haven't answered it.
2: There are two sides to the issue.
3: The rules don't state either way.
Your example is a perfect illustration of why it is a problem. If the attacker cannot make changes to their action based on changes in the battlefield, then the defender is better able to react to something than the original attacker.
Nothing says you have to chose a charge target and it cannot be changed. There is no declaration of squares. It would be just as valid for a player to say, "I start a charge", and move the mini square by square until the fighter moves. Then when the fighter gets in the path, the attacker could attack him instead.
Also, you don't have to pick a square to attack from before moving, and you don't have to attack from the closest possible square. In practice, you are normally limited to this, but it is not the rule. Say you have a lance (reach) and you charge someone on the same grid plane as you. You can break off of that plane as long as you are only going in a straight line. You have to attack from the first square you enter that threatens the target. But this could be another 5' or 10' of movement if you have taken a sharp enough angle during the movement. Sorry, I know without pictures it is kind of hard to visualize.
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
If all AoOs happened after the triggering item, the CRB would not have to point it out as a SEPARATE reason as to why spells are interrupted.
And here is some evidence from the Devs:
Wow, folks,
I am kinda amazed that this is still raging on. I have skimmed the posts from my ruling till now and most of them seem to be focused around a gamist argument, which I can understand. The time issue really is just to keep matters simple (as many have pointed out). Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, to keep things straightforward. This is the only way it makes sense for spellcasting, movement, and, in this case, standing up and trip.Whether or not triplock is too powerful is mostly irrelevant. I personally believe it is too good if the "in combat" cost is an AoO, but probably ok if it burns and action to pull off. Fortunately for my opinion, the rules support this as well, and have done so since the 3.5 ruling on this same issue.
Moving along folks.. keep it civil. I'll check back in later.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It keeps going and going and going....
Anywho,As it concerns consistency and casting spells and AoOs: The concentration check is a specifically called exception to the chain of events. So while the AoO occurs before the spell is completed (and technically before the action), the exception allows it have an effect on whether or not the spell is completed. No such exception exists for tripping, disarming, or moving, unless other game rules would dictate a interruption (such as going unconscious).
Moving along...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l0rq&page=8?TripLocking-Doesnt-W ork-Offici al-Ruling-or-Not#354
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l0rq&page=6?TripLocking-Doesnt-Work-Offici al-Ruling-or-Not#293