So a family member dusted off the dice and wants to play in pfs with me. He really likes the idea of the sword and shield slayer. He is planning human. What would you guys suggest?
As I'm actually playing a Sword and Shield Slayer, I can give some advice.
Since the Slayer can choose Ranger Combat Style as one of their talents at 2nd level, they can choose Ranger Combat feats, which ignores prerequisites. This gets them Two-Weapon Fighting without needing to have a 15 Dex, which is good, and also gets them Shield Master at 6th level. Shield Master allows them to ignore TWF penalties when using a shield as their off-hand weapon. Normally, it requires BAB+11, so that's a pretty big boon for them.
I would build the character out at something like this (20 Point Buy):
Human Slayer
Str: 17 (7 points+2 Human)
Dex: 14 (5 points)
Con: 14 (5 points)
Int: 10
Wis: 14 (5 points)
Cha: 8
Skills: Acrobatics, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of a new Slayer talent
Feats/Slayer Talents
1: Power Attack
H1: Improved Shield Bash
2: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (TWF)
3: Cornugon Smash
4: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
5: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
6: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Shield Master)
6F: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Shield Slam)
That should cover you the first 6 levels. Grab Bashing Finish at 10th level for your last Ranger Combat Style talent, and any other Slayer talents that appeal to you. Don't worry about Improved TWF or Greater TWF - both are trap options.
I have some thoughts.
If she plays a Tengu, she is automatically proficient in all swords including Exotic swords like Falcata and Bastard Sword.
She'll be getting Sneak Attack, so that begs the question of what tricks will she play to help her lock in her Sneak Attack Damage? There are Feats: Shatter Defenses, Cornudgeon Smash, Dirty Tricks (make your opponnet Blind: I like that one, and there is the Bounty Hunter Archetype that gives extra ability to play Dirty Tricks). Or you could learn the Ninja Vanishing Trick and turn Invisible for 1 round. Or you could dip a level in Arcanist and take Dimensional Slide and Flank opponents that way.
With Ranger Combat Style Feats which she gets as a Ranger, she can get Shield Slam without meeting the prerequisites. If she also takes Greater Bull Rush, she can Full Attack with Sword and Shield, get a Free Bull Rush with the Shield, and give an Attack of Opportunity to all her allies. I have an idea for this where I'd also dip 3 levels in Inquisitor to get Paired Opportunist with the Solo Tactics Class Ability to be able to use the Teamwork Feat. Maybe also Harder they Fall and get around the Bull Rush Size limit.
Level 10 you want to get Bashing Finish and Oppertunist. This may require retraining.
Consider quick draw so you can two hand a heavy shield on a charge first round then full attack second round with TWF.
If a friend can pick up outflank that really helps.
Phntm888's build looks pretty good I would skip bleeding attack.
Cornugon Smash is taken too early and without power attack.
Oh and consider power attack. It is good on low ac high HP targets. It is also good when you can't sneak attack or have DR/-. You can switch to two handed power attack and still do very respectable damage.
I opted to not optimize in getting sneak attack. I will get it through flanking when I can the build has lots of damage options.
Don't forget iron will.
Ok cool, now one thing we noticed in a adventure is his hands are pretty full. We were debating on quick draw and a quick draw shield. Not sure if it is worth it losing a feat and a point of ac. He is hitting level 2 next session so we are trying to get something solid.
So he's not the guy to open doors, being a slayer he doesn't really need hands in combat for anything, so I don't really see the reason to give him hands.
I went heavy shield as my main weapon and the other hand empty (cestus/spiked gauntlet). Because I like the two handed power attack if my first attack in not a full attack. For getting a free hand mid combat an other these should work fine.
- Keep sword on weapon cord.
- Once dropped uses your cestus
- Once dropped use your back up weapon
This should not come up too often but my slayer has been the only melee character before so had to deal with opening doors.
You need the Quickdraw Feat to be able to use a Quickdraw Shield as a Free Action.
The big reason, seems to me, to take Quickdraw is to have this character throw stuff: Spears, hammers, axes, clubs, sundry weapons with Range Increments. Good stuff. I have some ideas for that, if you want.
Quick Draw is an excellent option for a Slayer as it opens his options mid-fight.
I would also look at taking Trapfinding and making more use of the Rogue Skills he gets access to. PFS does tend to make decent use of such.
Yeah think he is looking at trapfinding. I think that is partly why he is looking asst quick draw. I plan to hit him up later and see if he is ok with the heavy shield
Phntm888 wrote: As I'm actually playing a Sword and Shield Slayer, I can give some advice.
Since the Slayer can choose Ranger Combat Style as one of their talents at 2nd level, they can choose Ranger Combat feats, which ignores prerequisites. This gets them Two-Weapon Fighting without needing to have a 15 Dex, which is good, and also gets them Shield Master at 6th level. Shield Master allows them to ignore TWF penalties when using a shield as their off-hand weapon. Normally, it requires BAB+11, so that's a pretty big boon for them.
I would build the character out at something like this (20 Point Buy):
Human Slayer
Str: 17 (7 points+2 Human)
Dex: 14 (5 points)
Con: 14 (5 points)
Int: 10
Wis: 14 (5 points)
Cha: 8
Skills: Acrobatics, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of a new Slayer talent
Feats/Slayer Talents
1: Power Attack
H1: Improved Shield Bash
2: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (TWF)
3: Cornugon Smash
4: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
5: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
6: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Shield Master)
6F: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Shield Slam)
That should cover you the first 6 levels. Grab Bashing Finish at 10th level for your last Ranger Combat Style talent, and any other Slayer talents that appeal to you. Don't worry about Improved TWF or Greater TWF - both are trap options.
C. Smash can not be taken at 3rd Level.
I recommend the feats:
Power attack
Improved Shield Bash
TWF
Shield Slam
Shield Master
Bashing Finish
Double Slice
Two-Weapon Rend
Iron Will
Greater TWF is a trap feat and will not pay off.
I would not focus on Sneak attack damage or boost it with precious feats. When it is there take it..if not a Slayer can definitely do fine without it.
Never take Gtwf. If you want an extra attack grab a ring of rat fang.
Attack + TWF + haste + bite + interative + itwf. With bashing finish and opportunist giving 2 more each round.
Focused target is also worth looking at.
Example build:
Guy, the LN Slayer
Stats (15-pointbuy):
18 STR (10pts, +2 racial)
14 DEX (5pts)
12 CON (2 pts)
10 INT (0 pts)
12 WIS (2 pts)
07 CHA (-4 pts)
Traits: Indomitable Faith(+1 Will), Valknar Graduate(+1 performance Combat, +1 CMB Bullrush)
Weapons of choice are a Heavy Steel Shield (one-handed weapon, 1d4 B) & a gladius(light weapon, 1d6 P / S)
01: Power Attack, Shield Focus
02: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style(Sword & Shield => Shield Slam)
03: Shield Brace (Switch to Mwk Light Steel Shield & a polearm as weapons)
04: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent(Combat Trick => Improved Bullrush)
05: Combat Reflexes
06: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style(Sword & Shield => Shield Master)
07: Greater Bullrush
Develop the character as you wish further.
This one eschews the "TWF" route for AoOs and control both close (Shield bash + (Improved/Greater) Bullrush & far (reach via two-handed polearm that benefits from high STR & Power Attack)
Whoops. Jumped the gun on C. Smash, thanks for catching that.
What weapon was the player planning on using in the other hand? That will determine whether or not you want to use the heavy shield or light shield.
Don't worry about needing to Quick Draw if they get Trapfinding. They should have time to disable the trap, then get their shield and sword back out.
Grandlounge wrote: Never take Gtwf. If you want an extra attack grab a ring of rat fang.
Attack + TWF + haste + bite + interative + itwf. With bashing finish and opportunist giving 2 more each round.
Focused target is also worth looking at.
Huh,
I was recommending being a Tengu instead of being a Human, that way the Slayer would begin play with proficiency in a better sword, like a Bastard Sword, Katana, or Falcata, and would also, incidentally, start with a Bite Attack.
It strikes me we are kind of on the same page.
I just put together a Slayer Human Weapon and Shield build that emphasizes Sneak Attack Damage. I actually have this character using Morning Star instead of Sword because I have a feature that builds on Piercing weapons. This character will not Shield Bash. The off hand weapon will be Armor Spikes.
1Slayer1: Bounty Hunter, Morning Star and Heavy Shield, Studied Target, Tracking, 2 Weapon, Dirty Fighting, BAB+1
2S1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack +1d6,Brawler’s Cunning, Martial Training, Unarmed 1d6, BAB+2
Slayers don't start getting Sneak Attack until level 3. I am in a hurry to start doing SAD. Also, this build is going to have some Grappling, and Improved Unarmed Strike is a Prerequisite for that.
3S1B1Arcanist1: Sorcerer&Wizard Spells, Lvl1, Dimensional Slide, Improved Dirty Trick
I like gishy characters in general. This character will now be able to use any Sorcerer or Wizard Spell Trigger item without having to use Use Magical Device. Even level 0 spells are useful in Combat for a Sneak Attack Character. When you catch your opponent Flatfooted or you use Stealth or a Wand of Invisibility (or Greater Invisibility), You can use a Cantrip Like Jolt or Acid Splash to make a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC that does Sneak Attack Damage. Those Cantrips don't do a lot of damage, but they also don't run out, so you can spam Stealth and Ranged Sneak Attacks as a nifty tactic. I like good saving throws, and a multiclass dip is a good way to pump up your saves. But reason I really like Arcanist is for Dimensional Slide: a 10' teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented can be a great way of achieving Flanking and locking in your Sneak Attack Damage.
4S2B1A1: Dirty Trick, BAB+3
The Bounty Hunter Class Ability allows you to replace your attacks with Dirty Tricks to seriously debuff your opponent, especially making your opponent Blind, stripping his Dex Mod to AC and providing another way of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage. If your opponent has Blindsight, well, Dirty Tricks can make him Deaf and Blind, that that will usually undo Blindsight.
5S3B1A1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Improved Feint, BAB+4
I like the idea of having lots of ways to secure Sneak Attack Damage, because lots of potential victims are immune to one thing, but not another. Anyway, Slayer Studied Target gives bonuses to Bluff Checks, so it seems a shame not to develop that into yet another way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.
6S4B1A1: Slayer Talent: Foil Scrutiny (+2Bluff), Ranger: Shield Slam, 2 Weapon Feint), Rogue, Combat Trick, Improved Grapple, False Attacker, BAB+5
A lot of choices here, and all of them are good. But I would go with Improved Grapple. For one thing, Bounty Hunters get a Grappling Class Ability, but also, I think the following combo is wicked:
7S5B1A1: 2nd Studied Target +2, Greater Dirty Trick, BAB+6
8S5B2A1 Hamatula Strike, BAB+7
So with Hamatula Strike, you get a free Grapple with every hit with a piercing weapon: Morning Star and Armor Spikes. Armor Spikes also do and extra 1d6 every time you make a successful Grapple Check. And since that Armor Spike Damage comes off a 2nd Attack roll--the Grapple Check--it does Sneak Attack Damage, too! So we have a character with a quite respectable, perhaps even impressive 4 attacks/round all doing a bonus 2d6 from SAD, and with the 9th level in Slayer, that adds an extra 1d6, the same as a Single Class Lvl 9 Slayer, gaining lots of ways to lock in Sneak Attack Damage and other nifty abilities at the cost of a few hit points and a +1 BAB.
He was leaning towards the scimitar, but you can't 2 hand that right. Trying to stay as simple as possible since he is getting used to the system. That and her is being careful which books to buy since this is pfs
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Grandlounge wrote: Never take Gtwf. If you want an extra attack grab a ring of rat fang.
Attack + TWF + haste + bite + interative + itwf. With bashing finish and opportunist giving 2 more each round.
Focused target is also worth looking at.
Huh,
I was recommending being a Tengu instead of being a Human, that way the Slayer would begin play with proficiency in a better sword, like a Bastard Sword, Katana, or Falcata, and would also, incidentally, start with a Bite Attack.
It strikes me we are kind of on the same page. Agreed.
Though, I actually like a Kukri or Schmitar with shield trained trait (losing a first level feat is not worth the upgrade to katana imo). They both pair well with bashing finish. The biggest benifits to the whole build, are no off hand weapon panality on the shield (+2 to hit on more than half of attacks), getting free enhancments via shield master (saving a lot of money), and being able to put other cheap enchantments on the shield in the usual weapon slot (menacing is a great option for 8000GP).
If I want to add a little gish to build I like half-elves with arcane training and some spring-load wrist shealth and scroll cases.
ekibus wrote: He was leaning towards the scimitar, but you can't 2 hand that right. Trying to stay as simple as possible since he is getting used to the system. That and her is being careful which books to buy since this is pfs Yes you can 2 hand a scimitar. I actually prefer this method over a falchion because you can swing a 1 handed weapon in a grapple/grab. A true 2 handed weapon can not be swung in a grapple and you're left with only trying to break free. I would rather keep swinging and thank them for sticking with me so nicely.
Louise Bishop wrote: ekibus wrote: He was leaning towards the scimitar, but you can't 2 hand that right. Trying to stay as simple as possible since he is getting used to the system. That and her is being careful which books to buy since this is pfs Yes you can 2 hand a scimitar. I actually prefer this method over a falchion because you can swing a 1 handed weapon in a grapple/grab. A true 2 handed weapon can not be swung in a grapple and you're left with only trying to break free. I would rather keep swinging and thank them for sticking with me so nicely. Better still, elven curved blade, threat range of 18-20 like a Falchion, but does 1d10 instead of 2d8. If the OP wants a high threat range in a 1 handed weapon, he should consider Katana, like a scimitar but +1 damage: 1d8 instead of 1d6, also with a Threat Range of 18-20. This is why I was recommending the OP consider Tengu in lieu of Human: they get the Racial Ability to use exotic weapons like Katana, Falcata, and Elven Curved Blade.
If Tengu is too weird a race, then I guess he could be and Elf or Half Elf and use the ECB. In conjunction with Great Cleave and Improved Crit, it could be pretty cool. He was thinking of Quickdraw, perhaps he could use a Bow most of the time, and take the Quickdraw Feat for when he is up close. But of course, an Elven Archer can take Feats to use his bow at close range just fine, and that is a big departure from what the OP was asking for.
If I were going with a weapon a Critting Weapon like those swords, rather than be a Slayer, I'd be a Hunter, taking Outflank, which my Animal Companion automatically gets, too, I'd probably 2 weapon Fight with a Katana and Kukri to score as many Crits as possible. Then each crit would trigger Attacks of Opportunity for myself and my Animal Compaion or Mount. I'd make sure both my companion and I took Improved Crit, Crit Focus, and maybe one of those nasty Crit Focus Feats like Blinding Critical.
Since Outflank works with Flanking, I'd be tempted to also develop Sneak Attack Damage somewhat in the manner I described above. Possibly not, since Sneak Attack Damage doesn't double with Critical Hits. Since a Critting, Flanking buddy AC would be part of this build, I'd also consider levels in Mammoth Rider.
My first idea I had for a Pathfinder Crit-fishing build centered on Warpriest, not Slayer nor Hunter. I was thinking twin Kukris that would do Sacred Weapon Damage instead of the 1d4 Kukri damage, and taking Outflank and Improved Crit as before. I would go with the Holy Tactician Archetype so I could gift the Outflank Teamwork Feat to all my allies, giving everybody in my party Attacks of Opportunity. But again, that deviates far from what the OP is asking for.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: ekibus wrote: He was leaning towards the scimitar, but you can't 2 hand that right. Trying to stay as simple as possible since he is getting used to the system. That and her is being careful which books to buy since this is pfs Yes you can 2 hand a scimitar. I actually prefer this method over a falchion because you can swing a 1 handed weapon in a grapple/grab. A true 2 handed weapon can not be swung in a grapple and you're left with only trying to break free. I would rather keep swinging and thank them for sticking with me so nicely. Better still, elven curved blade, threat range of 18-20 like a Falchion, but does 1d10 instead of 2d8. If the OP wants a high threat range in a 1 handed weapon, he should consider Katana, like a scimitar but +1 damage: 1d8 instead of 1d6, also with a Threat Range of 18-20. This is why I was recommending the OP consider Tengu in lieu of Human: they get the Racial Ability to use exotic weapons like Katana, Falcata, and Elven Curved Blade. I like the 1 handed used in 2 hands because the grapple/grab is a common thing for a frontline character to deal with. The Curved blade is better than the falchion but still not as good as the scimitar. Only in base damage die. I feel the ability to switch to 1 hand to be a great thing. Tengu with a bite attack does not need to do this but a Human with no natural attack may want to look into ways of dealing with a Grab. Plus Scimitar is a martial weapon and getting proficiency with it is really easy. Also, I do not mind bird people but the person playing it may not like the Birdman flavor.
Louise Bishop wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Louise Bishop wrote: ekibus wrote: He was leaning towards the scimitar, but you can't 2 hand that right. Trying to stay as simple as possible since he is getting used to the system. That and her is being careful which books to buy since this is pfs Yes you can 2 hand a scimitar. I actually prefer this method over a falchion because you can swing a 1 handed weapon in a grapple/grab. A true 2 handed weapon can not be swung in a grapple and you're left with only trying to break free. I would rather keep swinging and thank them for sticking with me so nicely. Better still, elven curved blade, threat range of 18-20 like a Falchion, but does 1d10 instead of 2d8. If the OP wants a high threat range in a 1 handed weapon, he should consider Katana, like a scimitar but +1 damage: 1d8 instead of 1d6, also with a Threat Range of 18-20. This is why I was recommending the OP consider Tengu in lieu of Human: they get the Racial Ability to use exotic weapons like Katana, Falcata, and Elven Curved Blade. I like the 1 handed used in 2 hands because the grapple/grab is a common thing for a frontline character to deal with. The Curved blade is better than the falchion but still not as good as the scimitar. Only in base damage die. I feel the ability to switch to 1 hand to be a great thing. Tengu with a bite attack does not need to do this but a Human with no natural attack may want to look into ways of dealing with a Grab. Plus Scimitar is a martial weapon and getting proficiency with it is really easy. Also, I do not mind bird people but the person playing it may not like the Birdman flavor. Even if you are worried about being Grappled, you can always just keep a backup weapon on you.
The character build I presented on this thread actually has some answers to being unexpectedly Grappled. My Character wears Armor Spikes. He actually will be a pretty good Grappler himself. He uses weapon and shield, the shield can only be loosed as a Move Action, but the Morning Star can be dropped as a Free Action.
One of the character builds on this thread calls for Shield Slam. It seems to me that Bull Rushing your Grappler away from you is not a half-bad way to break out of a Grapple.
Thanks all, had a rough idea but this helps. Need to see if he wants the quick draw, if not I'll bring up the polearm idea. But i have more to work with, thanks
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