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Does a disguised Succubus have a choice if she wanted to kiss someone WITHOUT using energy drain? For example is if she's disguised as a wife and is kissing her husband and doesn't want to reveal her true nature immediately -- does the husband start suffering as if Rogue from the X-Men movies is kissing him?
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Of course, the energy drain may not be as traumatic as the Rogue scene in xmen. It could easily be seen as a lethargy to feeling of being run down. Perhaps their heads feel stuffed with cotton wall or forgetful.
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In the AP Wrath of the Righteous there is a redeemed succubus who can not control it....personally though I would have ruled it as a effect of her gaining seeking redemption than the whole race not being able to control it.
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In the AP Wrath of the Righteous there is a redeemed succubus who can not control it....personally though I would have ruled it as a effect of her gaining seeking redemption than the whole race not being able to control it.
Not to mention Falls-From-Grace in Planescape: Torment.
It seems to be a trope that they can't handle their natural prowess.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a homebrew gamer, I would rule yes, especially if the story I'm running called for it.
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In the AP Wrath of the Righteous there is a redeemed succubus who can not control it....personally though I would have ruled it as a effect of her gaining seeking redemption than the whole race not being able to control it.
Yeah, that's how I always assumed it worked. Demon powers are about being evil. If you're not using them for evil, they probably act up. If you're actively using them for evil, I doubt they'd get in the way of your evil plot by revealing you as a Demon prematurely.
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" Free succubi, how do they stay in business?
" There's a temple next door and they jack the prices up on restorations.
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My understanding is no, they don't have control of it.
goblin babies' mouths are (Su) and thus we don't have control of them... or the insults that tumble out of them. Smite us at your peril, pallys!
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That's why Tammy prefers Erinyes as minions, no kissy kissy, just anger and spite.
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Yeah, the fact that a Succubus can kill the average farmer with a smooch kind of limits their ability to meddle in low-grade temptations over time...
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Yeah, the fact that a Succubus can kill the average farmer with a smooch kind of limits their ability to meddle in low-grade temptations over time...
That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
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I'd take a slightly more nuanced perspective.
'Can turn it off.. *but why would you?* Isn't that the BEST part?'
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That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
I second this. No real succubus would deign to go for the kiss until the time was apropos.
(EDIT: This discussion put this scene in my head now- Valeros is discussing his new girlfriend that he's so infatuated with.
Lem: "Did you kiss her yet?"
Valeros: "No, she's very shy. She wants to wait until the time is right."
Lem and Harsk exchange looks. "SUCCUBUS!" they both exclaim in unison.)
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It's a supernatural ability so it takes a standard action to activate. I'd rule she has full control over her supernatural abilities, unless the text states otherwise.As a GM, I second this opinion. Special Attacks must be declared beforehand. Furthermore, I'd argue that, depending on the circumstances, Energy Drain is not necessarily an Evil act. There's no Evil descriptor in the Spell Definition. So, what's the difference between a Wizard using an Energy Drain spell to stop a genocidal madman, and a Succubus using the Special Attack to achieve the same end? I'd say that there is none, as long as the target isn't killed by it.
I like this reasoning, and I'll take from here and add a bit of my own. The Succubus have the option of giving the fatal kiss, if she can control her most predative, compulsive and basic instinct of hers... draining life.
I don't know if Paizo have rules for controling "hunger" on monsters like the Succubus or the Vampire, but other books have nice rules, usually Will saves are that keep alive the casual love companion for those creatures.
The noble gentleman turned into a vampire struggling to resist the urge to give the death bite to her beautiful, young and innocent fiance and finally giving up to his new nature (and a fully change of alignment).
Or in this case, the happy wife unable to control her natural urge goes and death kiss her husband, reacts like "whoopsie, I did it again", and moves on to the next target.
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The real question is if the succubus is in a grapple with a Paladin, and he enjoys it too much, does he fall?Off topic. Belongs in the "Succubus in a Grapple" thread.
Succubus in a grapple cannot be contained by mere threads.
Additionally, as has been demonstrated readily by the forums, it is never too off topic to bring in a Paladin falling
The real question is if the succubus is in a grapple with a Paladin, and he enjoys it too much, does he fall?
Off topic. Belongs in the "Succubus in a Grapple" thread.
Succubus in a grapple cannot be contained by mere threads.
Additionally, as has been demonstrated readily by the forums, it is never too off topic to bring in a Paladin falling
A-hem.
*stares, tapping foot, disappointed by the failure to follow proper protocol*
>:I
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That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
I second this. No real succubus would deign to go for the kiss until the time was apropos.
(EDIT: This discussion put this scene in my head now- Valeros is discussing his new girlfriend that he's so infatuated with.
Lem: "Did you kiss her yet?"
Valeros: "No, she's very shy. She wants to wait until the time is right."
Lem and Harsk exchange looks. "SUCCUBUS!" they both exclaim in unison.)
What is great about this is that, while I like the idea of them being able to control it, really it's irrelevant in-character.
But whether or not a succubus is able to control it... well... they certainly spread the rumor that they can't. In fact, I dare-say it's a "well-known" fact among many scholars.
That way, when there are women of a hesitant disposition, they are suspected of being succubi... which, of course, pushes people into carnal activity, else being accused of being a demon.
This is a phenomenal way to cause the downfall/corruption of society by reveling in horrible natures, and tricking others into the same; not to mention creating a society that places heavy pressure on people against their will and emotional well-being.
That said, if succubi can control it, it just makes them better at infiltrating and destroying said societies - everyone knows that they can't, when, of course, they really can.
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Given things like what has been posted above about Arueshalae, I've been toying with the house rule that they can't control it (or at least not without making a Will Save or something), but their type of energy drain is not lethal on its own -- it can make somebody more vulnerable to being killed by something else (possibly done by the Succubus/Incubus(*)), or it could put somebody over the top if they were already compromised by something else, but otherwise it stops short(**) (and at this point usually tends to quit feeling satisfying to the Succubus/Incubus, thus encouraging them to do something of more deadly finality if they no longer need their victim and their cover for something else). In addition, the drain is not necessarily unpleasant to the victim, and not necessarily even very obvious until the victim tries to do stuff, and it is possible (although not very likely) for a victim to recover on their own, given enough time and some good luck with their Saving Throws.
(*)Also house-ruled that Succubi and Incubi are like female and male Lashunta in Starfinder -- they can both end up with the same ability score ranges, even if one of them is not the most common for each.
(**)Always leaves 1 level/hit dice with no corresponding negative level, and always leaves at least 1 hit point above 0 -- even if they fail their Save to control it, kissing a 1st level Commoner won't be fatal to the Commoner, but also not very satisfying for the Succubus/Incubus.
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Great, I bear witness to another thread hijacked. *leaves in disgust*
*waves*
Back on topic, as written it looks like they can't control it. Personally that seems silly to me and I'd change it in my games.
There is the loophole that it requires passion, presumably a succubus can engage in congress so long as they aren't actually passionate about it.
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{. . .}
There is the loophole that it requires passion, presumably a succubus can engage in congress so long as they aren't actually passionate about it.
That could be tough -- I hear those debates and floor fights can get pretty intense, and some of the other members can be quite insistent behind the scenes . . . .
Can an aboleth -not- use its tentacles? Yeeeeaaeah, that'd be grrrreat.
{. . .}
Actually, as far as I know, it can -- this just usually isn't a good idea from the Aboleth's point of view.
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That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
I second this. No real succubus would deign to go for the kiss until the time was apropos.
(EDIT: This discussion put this scene in my head now- Valeros is discussing his new girlfriend that he's so infatuated with.
Lem: "Did you kiss her yet?"
Valeros: "No, she's very shy. She wants to wait until the time is right."
Lem and Harsk exchange looks. "SUCCUBUS!" they both exclaim in unison.)
In a way, that's the problem.
If passion such as regular kisses is a frequent habit among low level people that a disguised succubus is infiltrating has to keep putting it off because she can't shut off her energy drain power, she might be discovered...
At the very least, the person she's trying to infiltrate would discover that something is wrong, if she keeps making excuses. She couldn't do anything long term, unless she's using suggestion or domination spells to keep the person she's fooling at bay.
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The easiest solution is that energy drain only functions in their natural form, not when under Alter Self. Compare to a vampire. If one used Alter Self to assume a humanoid shape, would it still do energy drain when it hit someone? (With or without a slam attack.)
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I'd say Tarik and Psuedonym have the right of it - a creature with the change shape power (like succubi) keeps most of their physical qualities (like DR or energy resistances/immunities) but not their supernatural abilities.
So much like how a dragon who's turned into a human can't access their breath weapon, a succubus who's turned into a human doesn't energy drain people - no blowing your cover by accidentally killing a mark in the middle of the tavern.
But if the wings are out, then yeah, she's going for a kill.
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If she can't, or doesn't want to use alter self since it would result in death whatever plane she is on, then this could make an interesting adventure, a succubus as the X-Men's Rogue (esp the 3rd movie version where she decides to take the serum to lose her power).
Succubus actually loves some other being and wants to be with them, but cannot, and enlists the party to help her lose her draining power by finding a hidden artifact/set of components that will accomplish this. May even convince LG players to help if it means one less succubus in the multiverse, esp if they decide to instead keep the artifact and go on a demon-depowering rampage.
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That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
I second this. No real succubus would deign to go for the kiss until the time was apropos.
(EDIT: This discussion put this scene in my head now- Valeros is discussing his new girlfriend that he's so infatuated with.
Lem: "Did you kiss her yet?"
Valeros: "No, she's very shy. She wants to wait until the time is right."
Lem and Harsk exchange looks. "SUCCUBUS!" they both exclaim in unison.)In a way, that's the problem.
If passion such as regular kisses is a frequent habit among low level people that a disguised succubus is infiltrating has to keep putting it off because she can't shut off her energy drain power, she might be discovered...
At the very least, the person she's trying to infiltrate would discover that something is wrong, if she keeps making excuses. She couldn't do anything long term, unless she's using suggestion or domination spells to keep the person she's fooling at bay.
But a Succubus should not be 'regular' in the first place. That isn't her strength - caress the wannabe kissers lips with her thumb, her hair, nibble at his / her ear, tease, hint, distract - that is what charisma and skills are for!
And of course, somebody skilled at finding out the demonic temptress should watch for those kind of play - most regulars wouldn't think of it.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Energy Drain (Su)
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus’s kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.
I think the key point here is "victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability".
1. As long as their target unwilling and is not grappled, no drain occurs.
2. "can use this ability" sounds awfully active. On this basis alone I would argue that it's a conscious choice.
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I think the examples of Rogue-cursed Succubi are just that - narratively cursed for OMG teh angstz. Edward Scissorlips.
Write any story you want, but carefully consider that this succubus is not some mad wizard's project, or an aberrative accident of alchemical aglutination. She's (yes, assuming her gender - already damned, why not ostracized, too?) an elite AGENT, one of a class of such agents, tested over eons. Can she control her kiss? Of course she can, if it will lure her prey into deeper folly. Having a slave kiss-test your new harem is obvious, trivial, ancient, and something the Abyss worked around a long time ago, one would think.
If we go back to the folklore, with a nod to Cayce, her purpose, her narrative function, is not "Can she control her passion?", but rather, "Can we control our own?"
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That's just being uncreative. Think of all you can do with just words - suggestions, promises, and tempting implications.
The kiss is just the coup de grace.
I second this. No real succubus would deign to go for the kiss until the time was apropos.
(EDIT: This discussion put this scene in my head now- Valeros is discussing his new girlfriend that he's so infatuated with.
Lem: "Did you kiss her yet?"
Valeros: "No, she's very shy. She wants to wait until the time is right."
Lem and Harsk exchange looks. "SUCCUBUS!" they both exclaim in unison.)In a way, that's the problem.
If passion such as regular kisses is a frequent habit among low level people that a disguised succubus is infiltrating has to keep putting it off because she can't shut off her energy drain power, she might be discovered...
At the very least, the person she's trying to infiltrate would discover that something is wrong, if she keeps making excuses. She couldn't do anything long term, unless she's using suggestion or domination spells to keep the person she's fooling at bay.
But a Succubus should not be 'regular' in the first place. That isn't her strength - caress the wannabe kissers lips with her thumb, her hair, nibble at his / her ear, tease, hint, distract - that is what charisma and skills are for!
And of course, somebody skilled at finding out the demonic temptress should watch for those kind of play - most regulars wouldn't think of it.
I was thinking something such as a succubus disguising herself as a wife or girlfriend. If she is trying to keep him away because she drains energy during passion, the guy is going to know something is off really quick.
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Depends on the relationship. Certainly for most, but some unusual partnerships simply aren't comfortable for most physical expressions. That said, I agree that it is likely a problem. Of course, suggestion, bluff, and diplomacy cover a multitude of sins, and if she drives him to cheat on her with someone else from sexual frustration, that's just one more win in her book. Succubi need not preform (in any capacity) to corrupt by sexual allure.
That's what makes the scenario above so terrifying. As innocent people are being unintentionally pushed, broken, and abused by forcing them into situations they aren't mentally or emotionally equipped to handle, succubi can dance around the issue.
Sure, Veronica down the street (who has lived here her whole life) is clearly a demon (or has been replaced by one) - she's unwilling to kiss or put out after a date. But that new girl, Suki? She is totally innocent, of course - I mean, just by talking to her, you know - you just know - that she is a trustworthy and excellent sort.
I.e. the very real human, Veronica, is reviled and pressured because she's not impossibly charismatic with at will SLA to alter the mind of others. Suki the disguised succubus, on the other hand, does have impossibly high charisma and mind-altering powers at will, and can thus just convince people she is innocent.
EDIT: for clarification and expansion of points.
Fall from Grace is the only reason that being immortal is awesome for Nameless, he can kiss her and die as often as needed.
Plus...full souls and regret are known to be...overrated compared to eternal redeemed succubus snogging!
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Succubus- of course we can control it.
Here let me show you....opps
Really I can turn that off....opps
This time I really mean it....opps
Sorry I was distracted lets try again...opps
This time really it's off....opps
Wow you're so forgiving thanks, this time no drain....opps
Continue till death.
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woops...drained a level
woops...drained a level
woops...drained a level
You are doing this on purpose aren't you!?
::dominate:: Doing what now dear...?
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The impression I got from WoTR was that they could turn it off if they wanted (and the reason Arushaelae couldn't was because her power was diminished due to trying to become good). Not sure if that was directly in there or something my GM clarified on his own, though.
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Energy Drain (Su)
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus’s kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.
I think the key point here is "victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability".
1. As long as their target unwilling and is not grappled, no drain occurs.
2. "can use this ability" sounds awfully active. On this basis alone I would argue that it's a conscious choice.
That's what I was thinking at first when I was writing my initial post, but I decided against it. First of all if the person is willing there's nothing to stop it.
Second the "can" is only relevant because an unwilling victim is going to be resisting, so if you're going to use it on someone actively resisting, you're going to be actively attempting to do so. I think the first line is the most definitive and telling it's not "A succubus can drain energy," it's "A succubus drains energy"