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After rereading the rules for grappling with armor spikes, I started to realize that they might not work like I thought they did.
Before I thought that whenever you made a grapple check "to deal damage" you would do normal damage (presumably equivalent to your unarmed strike) plus your armored spike damage (including modifiers for magical enhancements and strength).
Today, however, my takeaway is that it deals armor spike damage INSTEAD of the normal damage, not in addition to. Is this right?
I've looked up several threads on the matter, but it seems everyone has a different interpretation of how they work (including some not listed here). Can someone please describe to me, in detail, how armor spikes are meant to function in a grapple?
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My plausibly incorrect interpretation is that it's instead of normal damage.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
I view this as several different options:
- Deal damage equal to your unarmed strike's damage die.
- Deal damage equal to a natural attack's damage die.
- Make an attack with your armor spikes, deal its damage die plus modifiers if you hit.
- Make an attack with a light weapon, deal its damage die plus modifiers if you hit.
- Make an attack with a one-handed weapon, deal its damage die plus modifiers if you hit.
The benefit of armor spikes is that they don't take up a hand, so you don't take a -4 penalty to grapple checks, and they deal more damage than most character's unarmed strikes.
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"You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see "spiked armor" on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack"
Seems to me that the armor spike damage is in addition to any other damage
So if you choose to make a grapple check to maintain the hold, choosing to deal damage, using your armor spikes, you deal extra armor spike damage in addition to your armor spike damage?
EDIT: the answer to the OPs question depends on one's interpretation of "extra damage on a successful grapple attack." It could mean damage after every check, it could (less likely) mean extra damage after only the initial grapple check, it could mean only that you can choose to deal armor spike damage on a successful maintain check (see grapple rules), or the text might be a mistake on the author's part that should be ignored.
As a player, I always operated under the assumption armor spikes were just another weapon, but one without needing hands. Thus it worked instead of unarmed strikes (doing d4+stat+other) in a grapple, and then if a GM disagreed I'd adjust to doing more damage instead of less. As a GM I usually just use a spiked gauntlets on NPCs instead to avoid player disagreements.
Armor spikes deal damage above and outside of any grapple damage. If you're grappling to pin and subdue, you're still going to deal the armor spike damage, period. It's extra damage that is a result just of the fact that you are grappling.
That is how I always interpreted it, but the words are actually too vague to say something for certain. It maybe that grapple attacks is only a subset of all the grapple checks.
Great, at least there's some consensus on the issue. What about modifiers though? Say I have 24 Strength and +1 flaming armor spikes.
Are the armor spikes dealing an additional 1d6 damage, or 1d6+8 plus 1d6 fire damage, while grappling?
Also, it only triggers when I'm on the offensive, and making grapple checks to deal damage, right?
I had interpreted it as extra damage, specifically just the weapon damage.
My interpretation: So with 20 STR, and let's say a knife, you maintain and decide to deal damage you do [1d4+5]+[1d6]. But if you decided to pin it would be just the 1d6. With Ravingdork's +1 flaming it would be 1d6+1d6+1.
However after reading this thread, I see the many interpretations, but I still feel that it does extra damage, I'm just not sure how to apply it.
Armor Spikes says they do their extra damage "on a successful Grapple Attack." So with the possible exception of Grapple Checks made to escape a Grapple, that seems to clearly mean all Grapple Checks, not just checks made to Maintain and Damage.
This is the strictest RAW. Since RAI is very unclear, this is what I would go with personally. That wording could just refer to the ability to use armor spikes when damaging as part of a maintain check, however, or it could just be a mistake on the author's part.