In wild shaped octopus form, can I attack and free action Grab multiple different opponents? Or does my grapple end the second I establish one grapple despite having multiple limbs.
Specifically what happens if your able to grab the first enemy do you suffer a penalty trying to grab (by using the attack option) the second opponent? Or?
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You can initiate grapples against multiple opponents using multiple attacks with the Grab ability. Each attack and grapple attempt beyond the first would incur an attack penalty, since you have the grappled condition.
The problem happens during your next turn. It's a standard action to maintain a grapple (some abilities allow you to do so as a move or swift action), so you won't usually be able to maintain more than one grapple.
I believe the Kraken has the ability to maintain multiple grapples, IIRC.
You can initiate grapples against multiple opponents using multiple attacks with the Grab ability. Each attack and grapple attempt beyond the first would incur an attack penalty, since you have the grappled condition.
The problem happens during your next turn. It's a standard action to maintain a grapple (some abilities allow you to do so as a move or swift action), so you won't usually be able to maintain more than one grapple.
I believe the Kraken has the ability to maintain multiple grapples, IIRC.
I hear ya, I don't really want to maintain, I just want to grapple that round multiple casters, then release next round and do it again just so they have difficulty casting spells and not allowing them to move.
How much would the attack penalty be after the first grapple attempt and each thereafter?
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The penalty for having the grappled condition is –2 Attack and –4 Dexterity.
EDIT: "A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."
But if you're using Dexterity for your Attack or CMB you'd still take that penalty.
The penalty for having the grappled condition is –2 Attack and –4 Dexterity.
EDIT: "A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."
But if you're using Dexterity for your Attack or CMB you'd still take that penalty.
is it -2 to attack and -4 to dex for each guy, so after the second grapple guy it would be -4 to attack and -8 to dex? does it get harder and harder? or is it just -2 to attack and -4 dex no matter what.
You can only gain the grappled condition once, so the penalty does not increase for each successive grapple check.
thanks
As per the grab ability it is a -20 to your CMB to grapple without gaining the status yourself. This is what allows for you to initiate against multiple targets.
Once you have the grappled condition it is really only between you and a single opponent. (or opponents if people are assisting)
.. also... depending on how big your octopus is. You can only use grab on creatures your size or smaller.
As per the grab ability it is a -20 to your CMB to grapple without gaining the status yourself. This is what allows for you to initiate against multiple targets.
Once you have the grappled condition it is really only between you and a single opponent. (or opponents if people are assisting)
.. also... depending on how big your octopus is. You can only use grab on creatures your size or smaller.
Ah I gotcha thank you sir. The second you've gained the grappled condition you can't take any more attacks that round also even if you have two or three remaining correct?
Ah I gotcha thank you sir. The second you've gained the grappled condition you can't take any more attacks that round also even if you have two or three remaining correct?
Correct
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Ah I gotcha thank you sir. The second you've gained the grappled condition you can't take any more attacks that round also even if you have two or three remaining correct?Correct
This is incorrect. You may continue making your attacks that round, and may even initiate multiple grapples if your grab ability with your tentacles lands their attacks.
Grapple does not prevent you from grappling other targets. You can start attacking other targets as well (The exception to this rule is the lockjaw spell, which has special rules for its grab ability).
The next round you have to spend a standard or a move action (with greater grapple) to maintain the grapple.
There is a penalty for Grappling someone if you don't have 2 hands free. -4.
How this would work with tentacles would be a GM ruling.See Grabbing Style
Better yet, see the grappling rules themselves, which clearly impose the -4 penalty for not having two hands free on humanoid creatures only. Since octopi are not humanoid creatures, they don't need to worry about it.
(Grabbing Style is for PCs, not monsters, so it assumes the user is a humanoid creature.)
Without Grab or similar that allows you to engage in a grapple as a free action.... Grappling is a Standard Action.
It also normally takes a Standard Action to maintain against a target, not all targets... there are exceptions.
Without Greater Grapple or something similar moving the action type this means you can maintain against one opponent. Greater Grapple could let you maintain two grapples, provided you could somehow get into two.
So without something modifying the mechanics, grappling is one vs one. The rules even state that multiple things in a grapple is an "Aid Another" action that adds +2 to whatever checks.
So for clarity.
- An Octopus can HOLD as many targets as it has limbs with the Grab ability, this is done at -20 to the CMB check.
- Those limbs are no longer viable for attacks but can continue to HOLD the targets they hit for "free" by continuing to make the -20 CMB check.
- It can only GRAPPLE with a single target at a time.
- The targets of the Octopus could all choose to Grapple the Octopus however, though only one of them is actually Grappled, the others are assisting.
Without Grab or similar that allows you to engage in a grapple as a free action.... Grappling is a Standard Action.
It also normally takes a Standard Action to maintain against a target, not all targets... there are exceptions.
Without Greater Grapple or something similar moving the action type this means you can maintain against one opponent. Greater Grapple could let you maintain two grapples, provided you could somehow get into two.
So without something modifying the mechanics, grappling is one vs one. The rules even state that multiple things in a grapple is an "Aid Another" action that adds +2 to whatever checks.
So for clarity.
- An Octopus can HOLD as many targets as it has limbs with the Grab ability, this is done at -20 to the CMB check.
- Those limbs are no longer viable for attacks but can continue to HOLD the targets they hit for "free" by continuing to make the -20 CMB check.
- It can only GRAPPLE with a single target at a time.
- The targets of the Octopus could all choose to Grapple the Octopus however, though only one of them is actually Grappled, the others are assisting.
1) There is no rule stating you can only grapple one target at a time.
Because of this if you have grab you can initiate a grapple with as many targets as you have limbs with grab. Of course, next round you can only maintain on one of them (or release and re-attack).2) Yes, there is a rule (CRB p201) stating that only one creature can initiate a grapple on another creature and that everyone else can only assist.
However, this rule does not apply to initiating multiple grapples against multiple creatures.
3) There is no rule stating that you need to use the -20 to grapple multiple targets.
4) The -20 to grapple rule does not prevent having to maintain grapple from round to round. It is still a standard action to maintain. So even then you cannot maintain more than one target per round (barring some special ability or feat).
The ONLY effect of the -20 rule is so that you do not count as grappled which only has the effects of removing the Dex and attack penalties and allowing you to make attacks of opportunity.
The -20 rule is nearly worthless and I have never seen a reason to use it in actual gameplay. It may have been intended to not require a standard action to maintain, but that is not how the rule is written.
I just want to grapple that round multiple casters, then release next round and do it again just so they have difficulty casting spells and not allowing them to move.Actually, I do see a problem with this.
grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.I don't know about your GM, but I sure would count your Tentacles as Hands. That would mean that Grappling multiple opponents with Grab and the Full Attack Action would not be so simple.
1) Tentacles are not hands.
2) That rule applies to the grapplee, not the grappler:
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
If you have a bite with grab AND two hands you can still make a full attack with the bite and both hands starting with the bite+grab because the rule does not apply to the grappler.
3) The Devs have stated (long ago back when the redesign happened) that the concept for grappling is that the grapplee is being grabbed by one arm or by the gi etc. They are intending this to be judo style grappling.
Ie: the grappler has both hands involved (unless taking the -4 penalty) while the grapplee is defending with one hand. Hence the restriction against both hands being involved.
This clearly does not apply to non-human grapplees without hands. If a character is dumb enough to grapple a monster with many natural attacks you better believe it will get ALL of them on that character, not just one.
That rule [grappled creatures can't take actions that require 2 hands to perform] applies to the grapplee, not the grappler:I don't think that's true. When you Initiate a Grapple, both you and your opponent have the Grappled Condition (unless you don't), and the rule I quoted applies to creatures with the Grappled Condition. The only difference I know is that the Grappler gets to release the Grapple as a Free Action.
1) Tentacles are not hands.True, but I can see a homespinning GM ruling the way I am warning about. I do think this a legit concern and the OP should vet this idea in particular with his GM.
The rule is specifically written for the grapplee, not the grappler.
If it applied to the grappler it would create a catch22 rule where the grappler could not use both hands to maintain the grapple.Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, ....
So we know this is aimed at the grapplee, not the grappler. The grapplee is the only one that has to break or reverse the grapple.
...you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, ....
Here is the restriction which states you cannot use both hands.
....including the creature that is grappling you.
Again, it references being grappled by the grappler.
You may both have the condition, but this rule is clearly applying to the person that is NOT in charge of the grapple. It does not apply to the person in charge of the grapple. There is another rule for that (the rule that states if you are not using both hands in the grapple).
As for a GM houseruling, that is not relevant to this forum. This is the rules forum, not the houserules forum.
If it applied to the grappler it would create a catch22 rule where the grappler could not use both hands to maintain the grapple.No, it wouldn't. Making a Grapple Check is not normally associated with the use of any number of hands. We know this because you can't buy +1 Gauntlets and apply the enhancement bonus to your Grapple Check. Also, the Amulet of Mighty Fists will not normally work for Grapple Checks for pretty much the same reason.
Meanwhile, the Grappler can just release the Grapple as a Free Action, and can Full Attack that way.
As for a GM houseruling, that is not relevant to this forum. This is the rules forum, not the houserules forum.It isn't irrelevant to what the OP is trying to accomplish. I've been following his line of questioning, and I am certain that this is not for a PFS character. Identifying areas where his GM is not unlikely to be non-literalist is not irrelevant to the person who is actually asking the question. You might think he should not have posted on the rules forum, but then you should take that up with him, not me.
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
If the rule regarding two hands applied to the (humanoid) grappler then a grapple maintain check would ALWAYS have a -4 penalty.
You are misreading the action with two hands rule. It ONLY applies to the grapplee, not the grappler. It is there, in black and white.
As for houserules, you did not present your statement as a houserule.
I don't know about your GM, but I sure would count your Tentacles as Hands. That would mean that Grappling multiple opponents with Grab and the Full Attack Action would not be so simple.
If you meant that you would houserule it like that you should say so. This is the rules forum, unless stated otherwise the content here should be rules based, not houserules cloaked as rulings (which is effectively how you stated it).
If you meant that you would houserule it like that you should say so.I did say so.
I don't know about your GM, but I sure would count your Tentacles as Hands.It's right there in black and white.
At no point in your "black and white" quote do you state that you are making a houserule.
Considering the forum that we are in, that wording is more indicative of a ruling, not a houserule.You are misreading the action with two hands rule. It ONLY applies to the grapplee, not the grappler. It is there, in black and white.You keep saying that, but you haven't demonstrated that the Grappled Condition applies only to the one not in control of the Grappler. Whereas I have demonstrated that it applies to both the "Grappler" and the "Grapplee."
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.It's right there in black and white!
including the creature that is grappling you.I'm sorry: I haven't been able to examine this piece of evidence. I don't use a paper Core Rulebook. I use d20pfsrd and the Paizo Rules Archive. Can you cite this quote another way? I haven't found it in the rules. Is it even in the Conditions section or the Special Attacks section?
Even granted, on it's own, I fail to see how your this makes your point. Perhaps you can expand on the quote and give me more context?
Expand the quote? I have quoted it IN ITS ENTIRETY several times. The last time I just broke it down for you. Honestly, I don't think you are even reading what I am quoting. But, here is the entire section for you:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent’s CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent’s CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Appendix 2 for additional details.
Now, regarding your grapple condition quote, yes, it does state that grappled creatures cannot take any action that requires two hands.
Then the grapple rules (where I am quoting from) state that the person being grappled cannot take any action requiring two hands to perform.
Now, if both apply (ie: we take the more general grapple condition rule over the grapple rules) that people with the grapple condition cannot perform actions that require two hands then we definitely have a problem as that means that humanoid grapplers cannot ever use two hands to maintain a grapple and thus ALWAYS have a -4 penalty to grapple checks.
So, we have a choice.
We can assume the grappled condition is referencing the grapple rules where it states the rule regarding using two hands, and thus that means the target of the grapple, not the initiator of the grapple.
OR
We can take the grappled condition exactly as written and as a result Humanoids making maintain checks always suffer -4 penalty because they cannot use two hands to maintain the grapple.
Which makes more sense? I think I will go with the grapple rules over the grapple condition on this one.
In any case, I think this is no longer a relevant discussion as you have admitted that your statement that tentacles count as hands was a houserule, not a rule.
Edit: I thought about it and there is a third option, that the grapple condition is assuming you are humanoid and thus both hands are occupied during your grapple. But in that case, it shoots your 'tentacles are hands' house rule down.
The whole point to the two hands rule goes back to how the Devs described grapple to work where they described it as karate grappling (grabbing arms, gi etc) rather than wrestling. That simply does not apply to non-humanoids.
This is a unique situation which needs to be addressed by the devs, it's a question that doesn't have a clear answer. The tentacles should be able to grapple multiple targets you would think. But still we don't know for sure because RAW are made for humanoids.
Expand the quote? I have quoted it IN ITS ENTIRETY several times.Well, thank you for doing it again.
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform… or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach… including the creature that is grappling you.It looks to me that your quote fails to prove your point. I think you are reading into the text things that are not stated, and are not logically implicit.
You are outright ignoring the text in the quote I am providing in favor of the text in the condition. In the Grapple rule it states when the cannot use 2hands rule applies, when you are not in control of the grapple.
Now, that either modifies the condition text or it is overriden by it in which case it is pointless to include in the grapple rules text.
Being in control of the Grapple does not mean that no one is Grappling you: it just means you’re winning. When Rulon Gardner won Olympic Gold in 2000, he wasn’t grappling nobody: he was Grappling Alexander freakin’ Karelin. I dare you to call Karelin “nobody” to his face! When you are Grappling with a creature, the creature is Grappling with you: you both have the Grappled Condition, according to the rules. Nowhere in your quote does it state that that there are 2 different Grappled Conditions, 1 for the one in control and 1 for the one controlled. The only difference I’ve been able to find is that if you are the one in Control, you can release the Grapple as a Free Action, whereas if you are not in Control, you can’t get out unless you make a suceessful Grapple or Escape Artist check.
You are continuing to ignore the text. The entire section I quoted only applies to the person being grappled. Not the person in control of the grapple.
I thought about it and there is a third option, that the grapple condition is assuming you are humanoid and thus both hands are occupied during your grapple. But in that case, it shoots your 'tentacles are hands' house rule down.It doesn’t. There are humanoids with Tentacles. I am thinking right now about the Alchemist Tentacle. If you had an Alchemist with a tentacle but a Shield in 1 hand, and that Alchemist attempted to Grapple, would you say that his Tentacle did not count as a hand, and he still had only 1 hand free, and therefore would suffer a -4? If my GM did...
Tentacles are not hands. Period. You have yet to provide a rule that states that tentacles in any way count as hands.
I have acknowledged that the grapple condition, taken alone, applies to both the grappler and the grapplee.
The question then becomes which rule takes precedence but we cannot have that discussion because you will not acknowledge that the rule I am quoting only applies to the person being grappled, not the person doing the grappling.
If you are unwilling to acknowledge the obvious then we have nothing to discuss.
I would also interpret tentacles to serve as a similar function to hands (opening jars, solving a rubik's cube, and other examples IRL, this can't be debated) but is not explicitly written in the rule book because it is a rare case which needs to be addressed for players not monsters.