| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The question is in the title: Is the number of skill points per level a class feature?
I'm asking because of one class feature of the Seducer archetype for the Witch from Legacy of the First World:
A seducer’s power comes from her
allure. She uses her Charisma rather than her Intelligence
score for the purpose of all class features and effects related
to her witch class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum
spell level she can cast, and save DCs of her spells and hexes.
Does that mean a Seducer gets 2+Cha skill points instead of 2+Int?
Yes and No.
The number of skill points you receive is a class feature, but by that I mean 2+INT. Archetypes that change the number of skill points you receive change the flat number, but there has never been anything (to my recollection) that changes the fact that INT modifies your skill points.
We have a FAQ saying that Class Skills count as Class Features, so I would think that Skill Ranks also counts as a Class Feature.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
Yes and No.
The number of skill points you receive is a class feature, and by that I mean 2+INT. Archetypes that change the number of skill points you receive change the flat number, but there has never been anything (to my recollection) that changes the fact that INT modifies your skill points.
And that is exactly why I'm asking.
I can't find any other archetype that actually says that it replaces Int by something else for all class features and class related effects. I think this is the first archetype that uses this precise wording.
Archetypes are sets of alternate class features.
Archetypes and Class Options
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is designed to be a foundation for a wide array of characters. Within that basic concept exists the potential for innumerable variations. Some of these are too close to existing classes to warrant being full base classes of their own, yet prove compelling enough to become archetypes—sets of alternate class features that can be easily swapped for those of a given class to help customize the class's focus.
There are a number of archetypes (like the Warlock Vigilante) that alter the number of Skill Ranks, so it would seem that Skill Ranks must be a Class Feature.
It seems to me that the very broad phrasing for the Seducer archetype would mean that Int would be replaced with Cha for Skill Ranks just as it would be for any other Class Feature.
My interpretation is 2 in 2+INT is a class feature but the +INT part is not. RAW and FAQ above does Not shine light on this question.
The "+ Int Modifier" is part of the class description.
The witch's class skills are Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
I am not clear what basis there is for only excluding part of the text.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is con adding to hp a class feature? Or a property of con? Same answer applies here, I would think.
Is con adding to hp a class feature? Or a property of con? Same answer applies here, I would think.
The big difference is that the +Con for HP isn't mentioned in the class description whereas the +Int for skills is.
Basis, no classes do X+any so mechanically in the design space 2 is the only variable. As is frequently done in FAQ, there would be no reason to think the +INT would be part of the class feature.
Except that it's mentioned in the class description within something that as a whole (the number of skill points you get per level) is a class feature.
As for the "no classes do" argument, doesn't really fly, especially not here. No other archetypes says it replaces all instances of one stat with another for every class feature or effect.
That said, I think I'll throw the writer of that archetype a PM. That way we might at least know what the intent was.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is con adding to hp a class feature? Or a property of con? Same answer applies here, I would think.The big difference is that the +Con for HP isn't mentioned in the class description whereas the +Int for skills is.
Yes, that's the difference.
Basis, no classes do X+any so mechanically in the design space 2 is the only variable. As is frequently done in FAQ, there would be no reason to think the +INT would be part of the class feature.Except that it's mentioned in the class description within something that as a whole (the number of skill points you get per level) is a class feature.
As for the "no classes do" argument, doesn't really fly, especially not here. No other archetypes says it replaces all instances of one stat with another for every class feature or effect.
That said, I think I'll throw the writer of that archetype a PM. That way we might at least know what the intent was.
My guess is that Cha was not intended to alter the number of Class Skills. As it is written, I think that it would.
Basis, no classes do X+any so mechanically in the design space 2 is the only variable.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it can't happen. This could be the first case where Int isn't used.
As is frequently done in FAQ, there would be no reason to think the +INT would be part of the class feature.
Other than the fact that it is listed as part of a Class Feature.
Well, considering neither side has RAW proving that are the correct interpretation it becomes an Ask your GM anyway.
I just believe should it get FAQ it wouldn't be 2+CHA. Plus if so it works with Scaled Fist and a whole slew of other classes if the FAQ says it works.
No issues with scaled fist: "Draconic Might
Any of the scaled fist’s class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom". Since wisdom isn't in the skill/level equasion, no problem. Do those "whole slew of other classes" call out Int being replaced?
|
Well, it's in the class entry, but it's also in the skill chapter;
Acquiring Skills
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.
This reads to me like the skill points per class and the skill points from intelligence are two separate things that get added together, not part of a single class feature. It's a general rule applied to all classes, not a special feature of a single class.
Also, didn't we have this discussion a while ago about some sorcerer or wizard archetype as well?
Well, considering neither side has RAW proving that are the correct interpretation it becomes an Ask your GM anyway.
I just believe should it get FAQ it wouldn't be 2+CHA. Plus if so it works with Scaled Fist and a whole slew of other classes if the FAQ says it works.
I agree that there isn't a definitive interpretation on this. I suspect that we are dealing with a lot of legacy wording and formatting. Since the Class Skills part of each class description isn't even in the Class Features section, I used to be convinced that they didn't count as Class Features. Then the Archetype Stacking FAQ came along and said 'of course they are a class feature.' The '+ Int Modifier' was there before archetypes existed, so it may just be a redundancy that didn't matter until archetypes came along.
Well, it's in the class entry, but it's also in the skill chapter;
This reads to me like the skill points per class and the skill points from intelligence are two separate things that get added together, not part of a single class feature. It's a general rule applied to all classes, not a special feature of a single class.Acquiring Skills
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.
Doesn't specific trumps general? There are plenty of cases where specific rules overwrite the general rules.
As for the +Int part not being a class feature, that still strikes me as odd. If it isn't a class feature but purely a general rule why is it listed in the class entry? The +Con for HP isn't so why would this be if it isn't a class feature?
Also, didn't we have this discussion a while ago about some sorcerer or wizard archetype as well?
Now I'm curious. It would have to be a Wizard archetype otherwise the whole thing isn't relevant but I can't find one that replaces Int with Cha for anything.
The amount of ranks is actually no class feature:
CLASS SKILLS
The witch’s class skills are Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
The following are the class features of the witch.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Witches are proficient with all simple weapons.
This reads to me like the skill points per class and the skill points from intelligence are two separate things that get added together, not part of a single class feature. It's a general rule applied to all classes, not a special feature of a single class.
It might be but then it's just redundant information. [they've done that a lot though, so who knows] It could also be that the skill section is pointing out the general rule for a class feature every class gets. The FAQ clearly puts the skill section under class features, so it's certainly a valid question.
Also, didn't we have this discussion a while ago about some sorcerer or wizard archetype as well?
I don't remember one, but if it was a wizard one, I could see a similar question coming up.
Ascalaphus, that's pretty definitive. So the INT isn't part of the class feature.
Or is it defining the general rules for the shared class feature 'skills' that all classes have? Going by the FAQ, it should be possible to alter/change the feature, including the stat used.
Now, I agree with gisher: Most likely it wasn't meant to alter skills/level but as written is seems like it should.
SheepishEidolon: See FAQ: skills are included in features. Archetypes give alternate class features and skills are one of those features.
I agree that it might not be intended to alter the number of class skills per level but as it is written it most likely would.
The fact that the archetype ability actually doesn't just say it swaps Int to Cha for class features but for all class related effects makes it even more complicated.
The amount of ranks is actually no class feature:
CLASS SKILLS
The witch’s class skills are Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
The following are the class features of the witch.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Witches are proficient with all simple weapons.
I mentioned this issue earlier. The Archetype Stacking FAQ makes it clear that these are Class Features despite not being listed under the Class Features section.
|
We have a FAQ saying that Class Skills count as Class Features, so I would think that Skill Ranks also counts as a Class Feature.
I agree. A typical class description, such as for the Barbarian (page 31) has a heading for Class Skills, including skill ranks per level, followed by a heading for Class Features. If class skills count as a class feature, then there's no reason skill ranks don't also.
Personally I'd go with the interpretation that only stuff listed under class features is affected and thats what the examples given suggest.
While class skills do count as a class feature for the purpose of archetype stacking there is no indicator this is the case for anything else. Otherwise you could argue that every skill that is based on intelligence is mentioned to do so under the "class skills class feature" and thus gets changed to charisma. At that point it gets silly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also keep in mind that if the +INT is a feature of classes then why do all creatures even those without classes still add their INT to skill points.
I agree that it might not be intended to alter the number of class skills per level but as it is written it most likely would.
The fact that the archetype ability actually doesn't just say it swaps Int to Cha for class features but for all class related effects makes it even more complicated.
This
The seducer may not be intended to use CHA for skill points/level but, as worded, it does.
Good luck getting an official clarification on a splat book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well the Eldritch Scion is from the ACG so you could make a general FAQ like "when an Archetype says any class feature that uses [Attribute] now uses [Attribute] does that affect skill ranks as well?"
Yep
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
DISCLAIMER: I am not an employee of Paizo and so this isn't "official," but I am the one who wrote this archetype.
I answered Cuàn's PM, but I figured I might as well respond here as well. I wasn't intending CHA to apply to the skill points gained per level, just class features such as spellcasting, save DCs, and the like. Skill points use INT as normal.
I wouldn't interpret the +INT part of skill ranks as a class feature, personally, since that seems to me to be a feature of how skill points are calculated rather than a feature of a specific class (per Ascalaphus's read above). Hence why it didn't occur to me to clarify when writing the archetype--though I can see how it might be read that way after reading this thread. Apologies if the phrasing caused confusion.
(Though if you wanted to use CHA instead, it probably wouldn't break anything--but that would fall under Ask Your GM to Houserule.)
DISCLAIMER: I am not an employee of Paizo and so this isn't "official," but I am the one who wrote this archetype.
I answered Cuàn's PM, but I figured I might as well respond here as well. I wasn't intending CHA to apply to the skill points gained per level, just class features such as spellcasting, save DCs, and the like. Skill points use INT as normal.
I wouldn't interpret the +INT part of skill ranks as a class feature, personally, since that seems to me to be a feature of how skill points are calculated rather than a feature of a specific class (per Ascalaphus's read above). Hence why it didn't occur to me to clarify when writing the archetype--though I can see how it might be read that way after reading this thread. Apologies if the phrasing caused confusion.
(Though if you wanted to use CHA instead, it probably wouldn't break anything--but that would fall under Ask Your GM to Houserule.)
Thank you.
While my opinion on whether the +int is part of a class feature still stands this also affirms my idea that it at least wasn't intended to get Cha to skills.
As to to how that works on creatures that only have racial HD and no classes, you could see those racial hd as class levels. Their functioning is (almost) the same so why treat them differently?
DISCLAIMER: I am not an employee of Paizo and so this isn't "official," but I am the one who wrote this archetype.
Thanks!!! I always enjoy seeing the creators thought on their work. It's always good so know the intent that went into it. ;)
As to to how that works on creatures that only have racial HD and no classes, you could see those racial hd as class levels. Their functioning is (almost) the same so why treat them differently?
Creatures using their HD instead of an actual class get CLASS skills. Those are "In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills." So clearly, it's skills are treated as coming from a class. And they get HD, saves, BAB and abilities just like classes do. And , just to note, skills and skill points are under a creature type's features...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Thanks for the update from the author. As is the case on so many FAQ topics, how you approach your interpretation changes the resulting RAW interpretation.
I agree with the author that +INT is part of how the game works and isn't a class feature. The author didn't touch on the "2" and whether or not the 2 in "2+INT" is a class feature. I believe it is just as I believed the "class skill" list was before the class skill FAQ.
Ultimately this is an "Ask your GM" question until answered.
I agree with the author that +INT is part of how the game works and isn't a class feature. The author didn't touch on the "2" and whether or not the 2 in "2+INT" is a class feature. I believe it is just as I believed the "class skill" list was before the class skill FAQ.
I'd be inclined to agree with you.
If a class archetype were to change skill ranks gained from X+INT to X+Something else, then I have the following question for you to answer:
What happens when such a character dons a headband of intellect, which has a skill associated with that headband?
Likewise what happens when said character dons a headband of WIS or CHA or a belt of STR/DEX/CON? Do they gain a new skill attuned to that item?
The rules simply do not support a notion of X + something not int. Not that the rules couldn't be updated for such, but that would mean tacking a skill onto every such stat enhancing item in case it gets used by such a character.
The same would apply for languages known, and other attributes that are unique features of headbands of int.
Well, it's in the class entry, but it's also in the skill chapter;
Acquiring Skills
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.
This reads to me like the skill points per class and the skill points from intelligence are two separate things that get added together, not part of a single class feature. It's a general rule applied to all classes, not a special feature of a single class.
The amount of ranks is actually no class feature:
CLASS SKILLS
The witch’s class skills are Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
The following are the class features of the witch.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Witches are proficient with all simple weapons.
If the class feature was "Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier." then the wording under skills would add your intelligence modifier again. Since none of the sample characters do that, then I would rule that "+ Int modifier" is not part of the class feature.
Not in this instance, no.
What happens when such a character dons a headband of intellect, which has a skill associated with that headband?
Since the item gives skill ranks and not points, it works normally. Also, languages still work off of int.
Likewise what happens when said character dons a headband of WIS or CHA or a belt of STR/DEX/CON? Do they gain a new skill attuned to that item?
They would get retroactive skill points. The set skill is only to prevent cheese of resetting points to gain new skills by having the Int item work differently than every other stat that gains retroactive bonuses. I'd assume that skills would end up being set, if for no other reason than to make things easy.
The rules simply do not support a notion of X + something not int. Not that the rules couldn't be updated for such, but that would mean tacking a skill onto every such stat enhancing item in case it gets used by such a character.
I don't see why it doesn't when it pretty much supports every other stat related calculation to be modified. For instance, undead use Cha for hit points. Oracles can add cha to Ac, CMD, Initiative, Ref saves, ect. It seems strange that a single calculation is excluded from substitution.
The same would apply for languages known, and other attributes that are unique features of headbands of int.
The substitution was JUST for skills and doesn't alter languages since they are still based on Int. A bump in Int still grants a language.
If the class feature was "Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier." then the wording under skills would add your intelligence modifier again. Since none of the sample characters do that, then I would rule that "+ Int modifier" is not part of the class feature.
It's still rather odd though. Why are skills formatted like "2+Int" while HP are formatted solely as "dX" and not as "dX+Con"?
Either it's bad formatting or they function differently.
Do note the point here is the what the wording actually says and not the intent behind it.
As for the headband: that one has it's own rules on the skill ranks independent of the Int enhancement, as graystone pointed out.
I have more rules text:
Intelligence (Int)
You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:
* The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.
The second quote clearly splits off the class ranks from the bonus by Int.
Also note that in CRB ch3: Classes, that Skill Ranks always occur before Class Features, so they are therefore not class features unless errata or FAQs rule otherwise as they did for the list of skills./cevah
So if skill ranks are NOT a class feature, why are some classes penalized heavily (Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer, etc, etc) and some not?
If they are, are skills that heavily weighted that the above (and others) get the 'penalty' of 2+Int due to their power curve?
I have more rules text:
Intelligence (Int)
You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:
* The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.The second quote clearly splits off the class ranks from the bonus by Int.
Also note that in CRB ch3: Classes, that Skill Ranks always occur before Class Features, so they are therefore not class features unless errata or FAQs rule otherwise as they did for the list of skills./cevah
"You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level)."
Yet somehow, the game manages to have undead use their charisma...
"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and many ranged spell attacks like scorching ray or searing light.
Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack."
Yet abilities let you use wis to make ranged attacks or cha/wis to AC.
As to CRB ch3, the FAQ made skills a class feature so a FAQ change that. If skill points aren't a class feature then how do archetypes like Eldritch Scoundrel or Feyspeaker manage to change them? From archetypes APG "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class." replaced items are "alternate class features"...