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To the design team at Paizo:
Would you please clarify if cold weather gear counts as protected, with regards to the Environmental Rules, specifically in weather between 40 deg.- 0 deg.?
I apologize but, I'm going on a complete rant. I will summarize my thoughts. If Cold Weather outfits do not offer protection, at this range of temperature variation; not only, does it defy what we in the non-fantasy world know to be true; It also makes an ordinary adventuring party completely feeble in 39 deg. weather, after a 7-8hr hike, without the use of magic like endure elements.
I realize each GM has the right to modify these rules as he sees fit. However, I have recently started playing in Pathfinders Organized Play campaign and have come to realize, if a PFS GM interprets that cold weather outfit as to mean non- protected, it makes some modules and scenarios untenable, for PFS play at the tiers they were written for. It effectually punishes characters with no access to the endure elements effect.
By using Binomial distribution we can come up with a number that accounts for all 8 rolls and their increasing DC's through the night(or day if your party is hiking). A character with a total of +17 in bonuses will take at least 1d6 NL dmg. 63% of the time if he were just resting or walking in 38 deg. for 8hrs. About 18% time he/she would take 2d6.
Now translate that, to characters who have say a +12 in modifiers, the dmg. goes up exponentially. Thus the same rules that allow our characters to jump incredible heights, slay fantastic beast, cast mysterious magic, reduce our characters to feeble weaklings compared to a middle age farmer who tills his fields all day in cool weather (30 deg). The farmer gets home, tired, collapses on his bed. The first level ranger who helped him, is unconscious in the field because, he couldn't pass the DC 20, 21,22 saves required for the last 3 hours work ..despite wearing cold weather clothes!
The rules are not perfect. That is understood. And I understand I am treading tenuous ground when I try to compare our concept of reality with that of an imaginary fantasy reality. But, all these considerations aside. Did you as designers really intend all Pathfinder characters to just spam endure elements when the temperature drops bellow 40 deg?
Pretty sure that's the intent. I don't think there is anything confusing.
I have no idea what the intention is. But the cold-weather outfit gives a +5 bonus to the saving throw to resist the non-lethal damage from cold weather, and it does nothing more.
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I have no idea what the intention is. But the cold-weather outfit gives a +5 bonus to the saving throw to resist the non-lethal damage from cold weather, and it does nothing more.Pretty sure that's the intent. I don't think there is anything confusing.
Pretty sure it was addressed in one of the adventures...let see:
Snow of summer p. 10:
If the PCs secure cold-weather outfits before leaving
Heldren, they receive a +5 bonus on Fortitude saves against
exposure to the weather while adventuring in the forest.
So it would mean that yes, cold-weather outfits mean you aren't protected.
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The way the environment rules work every hour in cold temperatures you mustn't make a fort save to avoid taking nonlethal damage. Cold weather gear gives you a +5 bonus on that save. It's pretty clear that it's not supposed to be treated as being protected. To be protected you would need to be magically protected via a spell, magic item, or cold resistance, or have access to a high tech environment suit.
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I agree the intent is just to provide the save bonus. I also agree it's unrealistic, as I have lived in areas where 40 degrees Fahrenheit is shorts and t-shirt weather. It's amazing what people can get used to.
A decent house rule would be that cold weather gear eliminates checks down to 0, and gives the +5 below that. Won't help in PFS though.
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understood what you GM's would rule; but module mechanics are not RAW and with all do respect I'll wait for an official ruling on this; as I believe it makes some tier 1-2 level scenarios in PFS untenable. (Without the use of endure elements.) And I firmly believe it was not the designers intent that, a 1st or 2nd level character must spam a particular spell or die..
Here's a couple scenarios if you run as written as a new 1st level character You will die if you must make fort. checks every hour while being exposed to temperatures in the 0-40 deg. range.
Exiles of Winter ..If the party takes more than 8hrs to reach the city and breach the walls there as good as dead at 1st level.
Keep of the Housecarl King...Several days on the open Tundra while being pushed by your GM not to slow down because of the pursuit of the bad guys..Hope you used toilet tissue for your character sheet...at least it will be good for something.
Beneath the Ice...If you play it properly the PC's cannot even make it to Whiterook ...they'd die of exposure in the 3 week trip up the thundering river in the exposed river boat
So please, save your comments till we get a ruling or not. *edit* If you've played any of these adventures and survived chances are the GM ruled that Winter Outfit is protection, wildly miss-interpreted the rules, Or just benevolently did some deus ex machina play to spare your low level PC the indignity of dying in weather you or I could survive in days at a time.
Garbage man con.12 HP. 11
DC=15+1 per hr after the 1st or take 1d6 NL
Sorry Joe being a Golarion garbage man in Riddleport is tough in the winter..Maybe your buddy will notice you dropped off the truck a few stops back..
Normally unless the scenario calls out to tell you the temperature or to make rolls for temperature you don't have to make any rolls. I'm not certain about the examples you gave if they call out saying it's rough and the travel needs to make checks.
Well why not just go on the pfs forum? here it's the rule questions, not pfs.
Probably the best thing to do. Those rules are in the game since like the very beginning and are still here after many versions of the book enduring and surviving plenty of threads like this.
Well, the op could also wait patiently, but it will be a very long wait.
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Also your question is answered in the Environmental rules you linked to.
Cold and exposure deal nonlethal damage to the victim. A character cannot recover from the damage dealt by a cold environment until she gets out of the cold and warms up again. Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a cold environment is lethal damage.
An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40° F) must make a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description).
In conditions of severe cold or exposure (below 0° F), an unprotected character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check), taking 1d6 points of nonlethal damage on each failed save. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters wearing a cold weather outfit only need check once per hour for cold and exposure damage.
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.
Extreme cold (below –20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.
It specifically mentions the CWO and makes no mention of it eliminating the need for the less severe cold.
So, Cold Weather Outfit =/= protected
And I firmly believe it was not the designers intent that, a 1st or 2nd level character must spam a particular spell or die.CLW?
LOL got me there Rub-Eta! yeah I just went to my first Piazo con..Amazing how many 1st lv. players had Wands of CLW.. Unfortunately for our freezing heroes, they can't heal until they're in a warm dry place per RAW. So even good old video game ...oh I mean PFS standby, Wand of Cure lt.; won't work on NL cold damage, until they stop adventuring for the day and light a fire, ect..
@Lucklesshero I think your premise may be wrong regarding the lethality of cold environments. Things like the survival skill can go a long way to help you and your allies pass the fort save. If the save is becoming too difficult, stop and build a campfire, and rest for a bit to reset the fort save DCs back to base 15 to avoid nonlethal damage.
are you not camping out with a campfire to raise the temperature above the cold environment threshold? whoever is on watch duty at the thine feeds the fire to keep out going ask night.
@Lucklesshero I think your premise may be wrong regarding the lethality of cold environments. Things like the survival skill can go a long way to help you and your allies pass the fort save. If the save is becoming too difficult, stop and build a campfire, and rest for a bit to reset the fort save DCs back to base 15 to avoid nonlethal damage.
are you not camping out with a campfire to raise the temperature above the cold environment threshold? whoever is on watch duty at the thine feeds the fire to keep out going ask night.
Thanks for your civility Oddman80.., To answer your question my interpenetration of the rules is probably more firm than many having been thoroughly vexed by the apparent core mechanic. I am aware that resting and warming up effectively re-sets the DC to a manageable level even for low level player characters.
However, I have absolutely no concern over this rule in my home game. I will just change the rule to represent a reality more consistent with the reality we share. I'm through with rants on 6 year olds in our reality vs. Barbarians in Golarion. As far as a chilly NW evening goes; the 6 year old (with a jacket) can stay out and play with mom and dad for hours after our Paizo Barbarian drops un-conscious..That is how the rules work apparently.
My goal is simple: If cold weather outfit does not equal protection, then what does? My only goal of this thread is to get that clarified. you'd be doing me a service by clicking the FAQ button up top if you'd like clarification as well. thx
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I would interpret "protection" for the purposes of the rule as a source of heat (like a campfire) and/or a source of shelter (a cave, an igloo, etc.). The best chances of additional clarification of the weather rules will come in Ultimate Wilderness.
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I would interpret "protection" for the purposes of the rule as a source of heat (like a campfire) and/or a source of shelter (a cave, an igloo, etc.). The best chances of additional clarification of the weather rules will come in Ultimate Wilderness.
I lied not my last response...I'll be sure to pick that one up Jhaeman (Ultimate Wilderness); thx for your input!
If cold weather outfit doesn't provide protection against the cold because the entry doesn't specific say it does, would it not be considered heavy clothing for the purposes of heat dangers because it doesn't specifically say it does?
What's the game definition of "protected"? What's the game definition of "heavy clothing?" Why would actual definitions not suffice in their absence?
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I think that is the point of this thread. To have Paizo qualify this.
From my reading, they don't. Cold weather clothes are pretty specific.
"This outfit grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather."
If they provided "protection" then it would surely say more like
"This outfit grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather below 0F and protection from cold weather between 0 & 40F"
As it specifically provides a bonus against exposure to cold weather rather than any type of formal protection, and as you can add furs for an extra +2, I think that 'protection' in the cold weather section probably means magical or extraordinary abilities.
I think that is the point of this thread. To have Paizo qualify this.
From my reading, they don't. Cold weather clothes are pretty specific.
"This outfit grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather."If they provided "protection" then it would surely say more like
"This outfit grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather below 0F and protection from cold weather between 0 & 40F"
As it specifically provides a bonus against exposure to cold weather rather than any type of formal protection, and as you can add furs for an extra +2, I think that 'protection' in the cold weather section probably means magical or extraordinary abilities.
You are correct. GM Aerondor, My most earnest hope is to get a formal rule change that reflects something more similar to how humans and other mammals generally cope with cooler weather (the mentioned 0-40 deg. range ): however, being that it is very unlikely that they will Errata the entire core rule book (potentially causing abuses and breaks through a multitude of published materials), I will settle and most earnestly await a clarification on what is meant by protected.
Any developer who wants to try to convince me that a full days work in 30 deg. weather without magical means of protection will cause most men/women to topple over in fatigue is welcome to try. Certainly Paizo's current environmental rules support this notion. But, does rule satisfy the playing community at large?
I must confess...Judging by the responses so far..I think it does...(satisfy the playing community) Therefore, I expect no change. But, I still think it's a product of groupthink rather than common sense. For what it's worth.
Any developer who wants to try to convince me that a full days work in 30 deg. weather without magical means of protection will cause most men/women to topple over in fatigue is welcome to try.
You're basically setting yourself up for disappointment. Why are you torturing yourself?
Remember, "Cold Weather" is a temperature range. It means, "the temperature is somewhere between 0 and 40 degrees". It's not a specific temperature like "30" or "40". The game never says "it's 23 degrees outside". It says "it's cold".
And, yes, the fact that it's a flat DC for a semi-arbitrary range of values is a simplification, because it's a game, not a simulation. I mean, they could have said it's a Fort save every hour with a DC of 3*(40-T)/8, but would you want to play a game with rules like that?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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My most earnest hope is to get a formal rule change that reflects something more similar to how humans and other mammals generally cope with cooler weather
We've had a bunch of developer comments say essentially "it's a fantasy game so all things are not designed with real world physics".
It's been my experience that they only make rules changes when the rules don't match their intent, when the rules are silly, and when they are broken.
This isn't any of the standard (intent/silly/broken) in my view, so it's unlikely to change.
Your GM can rule 0 it any way you like.
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If "protected" is undefined and a +5 bonus is certainly a measure of protection against the cold, why can't protected mean that?
If heavy "heavy clothing" is undefined and a cold weather outfit comes with heavy cloaks and furs, why can't heavy clothing mean that?
If a term doesn't have a game definition it's actual definition is used it numerous other instances, why is this the only instance when the actual definition will not suffice?
Dot
given the long and verbose nature of the original post, i fear that the intent may have been missed by many people visitting the thread, and could be misconstrued by design team members looking at the post.
Given what Luckless Hero said he was actually looking for in his last couple of posts, my next post will be a simple and straightforward question that people might feel more willing to hit the faq button on.
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In the Cold Environment rules, what is meant by "Protected"?
Other than being indoors with a healthy fire burning in the hearth, does "protection" only refer to magical means such as Endure Elements, Protection from Energy (Cold) and Resist Energy (Cold) spells, or can mundane things such as cold weather outfits and campfires also provide "protection" from cold weather?
protection and resist energy do nothing for cold weather. It's not cold damage but non-lethal damage.
protection and resist energy do nothing for cold weather. It's not cold damage but non-lethal damage.
Actually isn't it Cold Non-Lethal damage?
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protection and resist energy do nothing for cold weather. It's not cold damage but non-lethal damage.Actually isn't it Cold Non-Lethal damage?
In the 3.5 Envrioment books like Frostburn they did state that that is how it worked and it's how I run it my games, we unfortunately haven't gotten anything explicitly stating the same thing by RAW in Pathfinder, hopefully this will be addressed in Ultimate Wilderness.
protection and resist energy do nothing for cold weather. It's not cold damage but non-lethal damage.Actually isn't it Cold Non-Lethal damage?
It is :)
protection and resist energy do nothing for cold weather. It's not cold damage but non-lethal damage.
I find it interesting that there are people who think the non lethal damage would carry with it a [cold] descriptor. I don't happen to believe that myself.... but it is interesting.
No - I was actually thinking of the lethal damage one takes from extreme cold (below -20F). Surely that would be [cold] damage. Just look at the opposite end of the scale for heat in the environmental rules. hot weather and even severe hot weather only causes non-lethal damage. but "extreme heat" (over 140F) specifically deals fire damage (no save) in addition to the non lethal damage (for which you can still roll a fortitude save to avoid).
If it doesn't say it does cold damage it isn't cold damage and resit and protect don't apply
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If it doesn't say it does cold damage it isn't cold damage and resit and protect don't apply
At some point, I think it's necessary to apply reasonable assumptions to the game to prevent it from breaking. If the damage wasn't due to cold, then every cold-resistant creature that lived in the arctic would be dead from the inevitable natural 1's on their 24x7 saving throws.