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I was looking into 1 level dips for a prospective fighter and realized that the martial classes are somewhat front loaded. Which led to ...
Dipso was a Barbarian out of the north when he arrived in so-called civilization and fell in with a band of adventurers.
In between the kobold killing that is required by all first level characters, he drank a little too much of the too strong city-booze and found himself in a lot of fist fights. His second level came in Brawler.
Freed from the restrictions of first level, the party delved underground in search of treasure and glory. Dipso found that his rage resonated in the deep caverns. His third level came in Bloodrager (Earth Elemental Bloodline - Blood Conduit).
The party's quest carried them into the wilderness where Dipso's affinity for animals awakened. His fourth level came in Ranger (Wild Hunter)
A near TPK in the final boss fight revealed how Dipso felt about his comrades. The discovery of mithril plate in the hoard only reinforced his desire to protect the party. His fifth level came in Cavalier (Order of the Dragon - Standard Bearer).
All this dabbling still left Dipso unfulfilled and he finally followed his natural affinity with sixth and later levels in fighter.
I did a sixth level build for Dipso using a 20 point buy and the Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression.
Human 1 Barb/ 1 Brawl / 1 Bloodrager / 1 Cav / 1 Rang / 1 Fighter
Str 19, Dex/Con 14, Int/Wis/Cha 10
HP 55, AC 23, Move 40, Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +1 (Yikes!)
Lots of class skills
Threatens out to 10' with reach weapon and unarmed strike
Optional abilities:
Animal Focus 1 min/day (+2 Str usually)
Rage/Bloodrage 8 times/day
Elemental Strike ( +1d6 damage) 3 times/day
Dragon's Challenge 1 time/day
Martial Flexibility (pick a feat for a minute) 4 times/day
Tactician Outflank (+4 flank bonus 1/day)
Plus the usual feats of weapon focus, power attack, combat reflexes etc.
The bloodrager gives him Improved Trip without the feat tax of Combat Expertise.
I chose the archetypes for these reasons:
Blood Conduit - move bonus shouldn't stack (Hero Lab messed that up), so traded for free feat
Wild Hunter - I dislike favored enemy for rangers. A versatile bonus to strength, climb, darkvision etc. seems much nicer.
Standard Bearer - I don't want to add the complication of a mount. This gives something in its place.
Questions:
Other than the abyssmal will save, what other deficiencies does he have relative to 6th level fighter or 5/1 fighter/X?
Do you have recommendations for other archetypes or class choices?
Do you agree that this would be much more fun than a vanilla fighter?
I also looked into Dispo's Lawful Good cousin Diparino, with Unchained Monk and Paladin in place of the barbarian/bloodrager, but the low mental stats were much more limiting.
Bloodrager or Barbarian mixed with 1 level of Vivisectionist Alchemist is pretty good. Since both Rage and Mutagen will net you +8 Str. use Extracts/potions of Enlarge (which you can make) you net +10 Str, increased damage dice, Reach, and Bonus to Intimidate. Also, Longarm extract can net you even further reach. If you go this route I recommend Drunken Brute Archetype from the Barbarian as you can drink Potions (which you can make..think enlarge potions and Cure light wounds for 25gp).
You can also Trade your 1st level bloodline power for a familiar as well. Up to you if you want a better will save.
For the ranger I recommend Freebooter Archetype. Much like the Slayers Studied Combat. Or just go Slayer. Both work wonderfully. Or you can just trade the Ranger for the Alchemist Level.
I don't know about specific deficiencies compared to a 6th fighter, but in a few more levels the deficiencies will start to become severe.
In a few levels the fighter will gain Weapon Training 2 and afford a pair of Gloves of Dueling. He can pick up Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training (which can give him Bane), Fighter's Tactics which works like an Inquisitors Solo Tactics, and can pickup Armed Bravery which will increase his Will Save by a good amount, especially when combined with the Sash of the War Champion.
Dips like this work well for a few levels, but eventually in any long campaign they fall flat on their face.
I don't know about specific deficiencies compared to a 6th fighter, but in a few more levels the deficiencies will start to become severe.
In a few levels the fighter will gain Weapon Training 2 and afford a pair of Gloves of Dueling. He can pick up Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training (which can give him Bane), Fighter's Tactics which works like an Inquisitors Solo Tactics, and can pickup Armed Bravery which will increase his Will Save by a good amount, especially when combined with the Sash of the War Champion.
Dips like this work well for a few levels, but eventually in any long campaign they fall flat on their face.
I tend to agree. But in a E6 Campaign this type of build really can do well. It really depends on the Campaign and Enemy choices.
After getting to BAB 6, it's less of a pain to take a level of a 3/4 class or of two. Which might help a lot with the Will save and versatility in general.
I don't know about specific deficiencies compared to a 6th fighter, but in a few more levels the deficiencies will start to become severe.
In a few levels the fighter will gain Weapon Training 2 and afford a pair of Gloves of Dueling. He can pick up Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training (which can give him Bane), Fighter's Tactics which works like an Inquisitors Solo Tactics, and can pickup Armed Bravery which will increase his Will Save by a good amount, especially when combined with the Sash of the War Champion.
Dips like this work well for a few levels, but eventually in any long campaign they fall flat on their face.
WT2 and dueling gloves, This is the point where a pure fighter usually will start pulling ahead of any other solo class in attack numbers, but it's still just number boosting, get that somewhere else and it doesn't matter, numbers are number regardless of source.
Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training isn't always available (it's not in all the games I know of here).I'm not aware of any super amazing solo tactics combo to make that all that exciting.
And if you boost will saves another way you still get a good will save.
I am intrigued by the vigilante. The +2 will save and other flavor might be worth the +0 BAB at first level and the d8 hp.
I hadn't really read through the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options which make the higher levels of the fighter more interesting ... I thought Dipso was just losing the +1 to hit/damage. I still think the versatility will be more fun, but that makes it clearer what he is giving up.
I tweaked his stats. Int dropped to 8 and Con dropped to 12 to raise Wisdom to 14. Plus, I gave him the Birthmark trait for a bonus against charm and compulsion spells.
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FYI, bloodrager fast movement does stack with barbarian fast movement.
Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.
Fast Movement (Ex): A bloodrager's base speed is faster than is normal for his race by 10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the bloodrager's speed due to any armor worn or load carried. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bloodrager's base speed.
Normally, redundant class features don't stack, but Fast Movement specifically stacks with all other bonuses to speed.
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I've done something similar with my "samurai"
Wasn't actually played until level 3, so he was always a Samurai in flavor.
1. Barbarian (Urban)
Power Attack
2. Magus (Kensai, Card Caster)
3. Samurai (Sword Saint)
Furious Focus
4. Hunter (Feral Hunter)
5. Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade for more grit)
Extra Rage
6. Gunslinger (Bolt Ace, Gun Tank)
6b. retrain hunter to Bloodrager (steelblood) for BAB
7. Fighter (Lore Warden)
Vital Strike, Furious Finish
8. Occultist (Battle Host)
9. Cleric (Varisian Pilgrim)
Weapon Versatility
10. Wizard (Foresight School)
11. Ranger (Guildbreaker)
Surge of Success
Keen katana, etc.
He was great at levels 6 - 9; but 10 and 11 started to lag.
I am intrigued by the vigilante. The +2 will save and other flavor might be worth the +0 BAB at first level and the d8 hp.
If you pick the Avenger specialization for the vigilante then you don't have +0, but +1 bab at lv1.
I am intrigued by the vigilante. The +2 will save and other flavor might be worth the +0 BAB at first level and the d8 hp.
I hadn't really read through the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options which make the higher levels of the fighter more interesting ... I thought Dipso was just losing the +1 to hit/damage. I still think the versatility will be more fun, but that makes it clearer what he is giving up.
I tweaked his stats. Int dropped to 8 and Con dropped to 12 to raise Wisdom to 14. Plus, I gave him the Birthmark trait for a bonus against charm and compulsion spells.
I tend to favor Carefully Hidden Trait on humans over Birthmark on non-Divine Focused classes. It is a racial trait so it leaves you the religion trait open. Its +1 to ALL will saves (not just Charm and Compulsion) and +2 vs Divination. In the early Levels Dominate/Possession is not much of the problem as much as Color spray, Silent Image, Fear, and a few other spells that Birthmark covers. But it is completely up to you...I am not sure if you were aware of the Trait for humans.
Normally, redundant class features don't stack, but Fast Movement specifically stacks with all other bonuses to speed.
While it does say it specifically stacks with other bonuses, is this Fast Movement from one class really an entirely different ability than Fast Movement from another class? They both share the same name and have the exact same function; while you could argue they're identical (yet different) abilities that just happen to share the same name, I suspect most DMs would treat them as the same ability (and as such would not qualify as a "other bonus").
Normally, redundant class features don't stack, but Fast Movement specifically stacks with all other bonuses to speed.
Good read on that, Imbicatus. I suspect having a 50' movement would cause consternation around the table and rules lawyers could get bogged down arguing whether the two speed bonuses are separate or the same bonus.
Probably best to grab the bonus feat instead and live with a 40' speed.
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Normally, redundant class features don't stack, but Fast Movement specifically stacks with all other bonuses to speed.Good read on that, Imbicatus. I suspect having a 50' movement would cause consternation around the table and rules lawyers could get bogged down arguing whether the two speed bonuses are separate or the same bonus.
This thread reached consensus that they stack in only 63 posts---hardly "bogged down" by Rules forum standards. I still marked the first post there as FAQ-worthy, though.
I don't know about specific deficiencies compared to a 6th fighter, but in a few more levels the deficiencies will start to become severe.
In a few levels the fighter will gain Weapon Training 2 and afford a pair of Gloves of Dueling. He can pick up Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training (which can give him Bane), Fighter's Tactics which works like an Inquisitors Solo Tactics, and can pickup Armed Bravery which will increase his Will Save by a good amount, especially when combined with the Sash of the War Champion.
Dips like this work well for a few levels, but eventually in any long campaign they fall flat on their face.
WT2 and dueling gloves, This is the point where a pure fighter usually will start pulling ahead of any other solo class in attack numbers, but it's still just number boosting, get that somewhere else and it doesn't matter, numbers are number regardless of source.
Weapon Special Advanced Weapon Training isn't always available (it's not in all the games I know of here).
I'm not aware of any super amazing solo tactics combo to make that all that exciting.
And if you boost will saves another way you still get a good will save.
Numbers boosting is the point, but many of the boost this character has are limited and wont last through an entire day's combats. Now if you commonly have only 1 encounter a day, then this works out okay. It's also the biggest bane to fighters who pretty much have everything last all day for them.
"Weapon Special" was actually supposed to be Warrior Spirit, which is available in all games as far as I know. However, I understand why you may be confused cause I just said the wrong thing.
I only mentioned Fighters Tactics because the OP mentioned tactician ability.
okay, I think I wasn't on the same page on some things.
First, I knew you meant Warrior Spirit, though I couldn't remember the name at the time, and I'm saying I've not seen it be allowed in any games I personally know of. So for me that ability is a non-factor about dipping.
And here was the misunderstanding my post was about the idea that a Mutt character can keep up with solo classed character, not necessarily that the OP's character would keep up compared to a fighter. By dipping no more than 2 levels in a class (3 would let me 'cheat' by going Weapon master fighter 3 for WT and gloves too.) I could probably make something that keeps up with a fighter 11.
Because of the high fortitude bonus you will have at 6th level (you could be at +12), it seems this type of build could take advantage of item mastery feats.
Unless the rule is that you can only use 1 class's fort saves to qualify for those feats, like in PFS.
Super great idea if it's total fort saves, super speed access.