A Rogue By Any Other Name - Not Your Typical Rogue


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Rogues often get pigeonholed as thieves, cutpurses, and burglars. They very rarely see anything that isn’t a dex based build. In some cases people don’t believe that rogues can be (if you’re using alignment) Lawful Good. For me classes are just a chassis of rules to build the characters you want, so I look at some of the ways a rogue might be something it typically is not cast as; the law enforcer and the brute.

Do you believe rogues have to always be sneaky dex based characters? What kind of out of the box rogues have you built as a player or a GM? Do you believe a rogue can be a law abiding or even enforcing citizen?

Shadow Lodge

With Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training and reliance on light armor, they are mostly pigeonholed into Dex-based characters now. Thug-Intimidate is probably the only reason to keep with a Strength focus, and that's really only if you have the feats spare to take Intimidating Prowess.

One of my most favorite (chained) rogues who I played with was both an enforcer type character and strength based. I believe these two concepts are a natural fit together.


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One problem is that, as much as it could be said to be at all favourable, the Rogue's mechanics favour Dex. The way that sneak attack works in pathfinder (especially compared to 3.5) gives the greatest benefit to two weapon fighting, offers no increase in benefit for 2h weapon fighting (a reversal of the norm) and limits range significantly.

So, you've got a class that gets the most benefit from two weapon melee (which requires high Dex), has only light armour proficiency (meaning Dex is needed to increase AC), has many skills that are Dex based (and would suffer from attempts to wear heavier armour), and has a d8 hit die (with no self-healing or self protection abilities beyond AC and a couple of specific talents). It's not tradition that causes most Rogues to be Dex based (and often sneaky), it's surviving and getting the most out of their class.

Of course you can make nearly any class try to fit a role, and house rules (if available) can be a great help. What I'm curious about is: why use Rogue when options that better fit the desired role already exist?


Unchained basically made it mandatory. You don't want it not to be mandatory, because while 'thug builds' using Strength existed, why on earth were you not playing a Slayer with a similar build?

All in all, it's better this way, and there are plenty of builds and archetypes that make Unchained Rogues much more than thieves and the like. Scout builds are almost always brawler types or just dexterous warriors (Slow Reactions applied to a charge sneak attack pretty much ensures you can keep sneak attacking in the ensuing fight, and getting Up Close and Personal using the stalker talent advanced rogue talent allows you to flip around an opponent and continuously sneak attack with roughly BAB equivalent amount of attacks if you can keep making those Acrobatics checks to tumble, which is reasonably easy for rogues to do even against heavily inflated DC's, and even easier when you can't be otherwise punished thanks to slow reactions and debilitating strike)

Eldritch Scoundrels are apprentice wizards with a bit more sneakiness and guile that never really grow into full wizards but do a pretty damn good job at replicating wizard tricks (and they also can get ninja tricks, so you know they're good, but don't ever play this archetype with core, it's bad!)

Phantom Thieves are gentlepeople of high society and are movers and shakers, as well as remarkable skill masters (if it's Unchained Rogue) and fencers (they can get lots of combat feats).

Underground Chemists is your local weedman with way too many volatile chemicals lying around...

Bandits are the typical rogue depiction but I like to see them as people who know a thing or too about ending a fight early. (particularly when you use their surprise round full action to enable a maximised sneak attack from two heavy wrist launchers using Underhanded, or anything you can keep hidden using Deft Palm, on top of the Quick Shot attack you inevitably took. Actually, you should take Quick Shot on every URogue...)

I'm just saying that the fantasy's are fairly diverse for viable builds, and some of these aren't really your typical depiction of rogues (but they are 'rogue-y' in their own way).


I made a Chained Rogue (Thug)/Barbarian to great effect. He had great Str and Cha, adequate Dex and Con, a 10 Wis, and I dumped Int. He was basically your typical muscle-head jock who gets the girl. He didn't feel like a Rogue in any way, even though I played him up to Rogue 5/Barb 3. As a Human, he still had a surprising amount of skills to play with, and with my high Cha, I didn't need to spend a feat on Intimidating Prowess.

The only reason I played my Rogue this way was because Unchained Rogue was not allowed at the table. Had it been, I probably would have been a Dex-based run-of-the-mill grabby-stabby man.

Tl;dr - Standard Rogue has some wiggle room to not be pigionholed as a Dex machine. Unchained Rogue doesn't care about your character concept - you're playing an ADND Thief; deal with it.


I get that the unchained rogue especially veers toward dex based but with weapon finesse and dex to damage but you don't always have to use every tool in the tool box. I've played unarmored paladins and they work just fine. So strength based rogues can be pretty effective, my chain fighting half orc brute did wonders and when he came into his own he was demoralizing most of the battlefield for four or five rounds and everyone who was scared of him was susceptible to his sneak attack. Do you have to work for it? Sure. But sometimes that's worth doing.


I believe one of the popular and espoused ways of playing the core rogue WAS going STR based and THF.


Chess Pwn wrote:
I believe one of the popular and espoused ways of playing the core rogue WAS going STR based and THF.

News to me. The most well-known build was TWF and Weapon Finesse and completely forgetting about Strength so long as it wasn't below 10. You dealt damage via sneak attack or you did nothing. Hence why rogues were so bad for, like, forever.

Any Strength focused rogue was either better off going Slayer/Ninja/Vivisectionist Alchemist, or play any other martial. If it was JUST the core rulebook, you probably didn't have any other options.


I'm not a fan of the slayer, ninja or alchemists classes so all my str based sneak attackers have been rogues.


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A str based skulking scout half-orc rogue was a really nice build.


My problem with all the unchained classes including the Rogue was the fact someone felt a need to fix what they felt was a broken class. I've played Rogues in every edition never felt they were broken needing to be fixed. Had friends play them never thought they were broken either. I've played some great Rogues and never felt they were weak or as one person called them garbage. Even had one guy build a pretty decent Rogue but sucked because he never rolled higher then ten on his dice. He didn't hate his character saying it sucked. He just complained about bad rolls.


I don't think they were broken either. Slightly underpowered compared to other classes, especially with the creation of Hybrid but they weren't horribly unusable. Unchained just put them more on par with some of the other classes. But you can still use the regular rogue no problems.


I like the unchained rogue, but I would have preferred the finesse route to be but one option at 1st level. The flavor or the class and many of the features do very much favor agile characters, but to me playing a strong rogue is equally appealing both in flavor and mechanics.


I've built a Scout/Swashbuckler UnRogue running about with a Greatsword and trusting to Resilence/Multitalented and Roll With It to run about the front line. Also went ahead with a Poisoner/Underground Chemist build using the Heal skill unlock and new Healers Satchel to try my hand at a mundane healer. They both preformed well enough for me to enjoy myself and support the party.


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Corbynsonn wrote:
I've built a Scout/Swashbuckler UnRogue running about with a Greatsword and trusting to Resilence/Multitalented and Roll With It to run about the front line. Also went ahead with a Poisoner/Underground Chemist build using the Heal skill unlock and new Healers Satchel to try my hand at a mundane healer. They both preformed well enough for me to enjoy myself and support the party.

Underground Chemist is absolutely baller, and I love the Heal skill unlock (combine that with Psychic Sensitivity and Believer's Boon+Healing domain power for some ridiculous amounts of temp hitpoints before a big fight).

I had noticed the ridiculous synergy with Resiliency+Multitalented (multiple attempts at stopping death is fairly powerful), but Roll With It is an interesting addition! I'll keep that in mind.


Even if Dex is your main ability score, there are several options how much to invest into it (at character creation, at least) and how you distribute among the other scores. For any of the five others 8 to 12 works (in my opinion), you could also dump Int and Cha to 7-, and profit from Str 14 (for TWF), Int 13 (magic, Combat Expertise if necessary) and Cha 14 (emphasis on social skills and feint).

A rogue can make good use of the fact that 12s and 13s are cheap at point-buy. Rolling for stats, however, is less pleasant because you likely will get one or two bad stats and miss out on something.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Corbynsonn wrote:
I've built a Scout/Swashbuckler UnRogue running about with a Greatsword and trusting to Resilence/Multitalented and Roll With It to run about the front line. Also went ahead with a Poisoner/Underground Chemist build using the Heal skill unlock and new Healers Satchel to try my hand at a mundane healer. They both preformed well enough for me to enjoy myself and support the party.

Underground Chemist is absolutely baller, and I love the Heal skill unlock (combine that with Psychic Sensitivity and Believer's Boon+Healing domain power for some ridiculous amounts of temp hitpoints before a big fight).

I had noticed the ridiculous synergy with Resiliency+Multitalented (multiple attempts at stopping death is fairly powerful), but Roll With It is an interesting addition! I'll keep that in mind.

Defensive Roll is the one I meant mate sorry.

At level 10 it means every time you're about to hit 0 or lower hitpoints you make a reflex save to half the damage and, if this damage takes you into the negatives anyway, three times a day you gain 20 temporary hit points. It's a good laugh.

If you like the mundane healer bent check out the healer's satchel from the Healer's Handbook. Gives you a variety of different bonus' which, at the most basic level, makes the skill unlock that much better.


People are talking as if you are required to play a dex-based character with Unchained Rogue, which is demonstrably not true. UnRogue gets the best toolset for Dexterity builds in the game right now, but nothing prevents them from ignoring Finesse Training and going into Strength if desired. Thanks to Debilitating Injury and Skill Unlocks a Strength-based Unchained Rogue is still an improvement over past builds, and all those neat archetypes are still available.

At Level 1, take Intimidating Prowess. Level 2, Weapon Focus through a talent. Level 3, Dazzling Display. Pick up Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, and Furious Focus when you get the chance. Pick up Skill Unlock: Intimidate. At Level 8, Shatter Defenses with Combat Trick.

Finally, wield a bat as your weapon. Call yourself Bat Man.

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