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In my party of 6, there are 5 spellcasters.
A BARD, an ARCANIST, a CLERIC, a DRUID and a SORC.
This scenario happened:
We were captured and all our items were taken... Spellbooks, holy symbols, weapons, everything... Then the thugs released us in the middle of a forest. Somehow, we found 4 spell component pouches
The question appears. After spending one day in the forest, its nightfall. What happen to all our spells?
1. If the party decides to sleep, will the spell casters lose all their prepared spells, even if they never use it? (e.g. Wizard still have Magic Missile left, goes to sleep, does it still remain as prepared spell next day?)
2. If part 1 was a YES, if the wizard don't sleep, does it lose all their prepared spells.
3. For Cleric and Druid, without holy symbols, can they still cast spells... OR even prepare spells
The game did not continue from then on. Need to resolve this quickly
1: no
2: no
3: prepare no problem. If a divine focus is needed by the spell, you need it.
All this is explained in the magic section of the core book. this can easily be found in the PRD to your left.
Note also the sorc should have the eschew materials feat, gained at 1st level just for being a sorc, so for the sorc a component pouch is not needed or useful.
Note also the sorc should have the eschew materials feat, gained at 1st level just for being a sorc, so for the sorc a component pouch is not needed or useful.
That assumes, of course, that they haven't taken an archetype that trade out eschew materials.
They got their component pouches back that quickly...in the middle of a forest?
Talk about soft GMing. Totally missed giving the players the fun opportunity to scrounge for individual spell components, many of which I bet could be found in the wild.
Sucks tracking it all in the long run, which is why the game has spell component pouches, but in the short term, it can make a game much more interesting.
Missed opportunity.
They got their component pouches back that quickly...in the middle of a forest?
Don't they literally grow on trees? ;)
3) Unless the holy symbol is specifically part of their preparation ritual, they can prepare their spells as usual. If they need a divine focus (DF) to cast the spell, they can't without a holy symbol.
Note here that a 'holy symbol' isn't by the rules a manufactured item. It can be a drawing, or a tattoo (many divine get a tattoo just so this can't happen). However it can also be a few twigs with some vines tied up in the shape of the symbol... (think of any vampire movie you know where the 'cross' is as simple as two steaks held together) - really the intent is that it's 'recognizable' to the church or followers and presented in a bold clear manner when casting.
How, and if your divine casters can make use of natural materials to create an 'ad hoc' symbol will be up to your GM.
Note also the sorc should have the eschew materials feat, gained at 1st level just for being a sorc, so for the sorc a component pouch is not needed or useful.
Eschew Materials only removes the need for non-expensive material components.It does nothing for non-expensive focuses, which are also included in the pouch. Plus the pouch gives the character a place to store your expensive components/focuses.
So even sorcerers should carry a pouch.
3) Unless the holy symbol is specifically part of their preparation ritual, they can prepare their spells as usual. If they need a divine focus (DF) to cast the spell, they can't without a holy symbol.
Note here that a 'holy symbol' isn't by the rules a manufactured item. It can be a drawing, or a tattoo (many divine get a tattoo just so this can't happen). However it can also be a few twigs with some vines tied up in the shape of the symbol... (think of any vampire movie you know where the 'cross' is as simple as two steaks held together) - really the intent is that it's 'recognizable' to the church or followers and presented in a bold clear manner when casting.
How, and if your divine casters can make use of natural materials to create an 'ad hoc' symbol will be up to your GM.
The most basic holy symbol is the wooden one that costs 1 gp. It's possible to make one with improvised tools but you have to fine 33cp of materials to make it. That means you have to find 33cp of "twigs with some vines" then take at least a day out and roll (check result × DC)/7 equal to 33. If it doesn't that's another day work.
A DM could houserule in improvised symbol but I see no actual rules for it.
Note: the tattoo/brand you mentioned has a cost of 100gp and if erased/damaged it stops working. A drawing wouldn't be very sturdy/useful.
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In my party of 6, there are 5 spellcasters.
A BARD, an ARCANIST, a CLERIC, a DRUID and a SORC.This scenario happened:
We were captured and all our items were taken... Spellbooks, holy symbols, weapons, everything... Then the thugs released us in the middle of a forest. Somehow, we found 4 spell component pouchesThe question appears. After spending one day in the forest, its nightfall. What happen to all our spells?
1. If the party decides to sleep, will the spell casters lose all their prepared spells, even if they never use it? (e.g. Wizard still have Magic Missile left, goes to sleep, does it still remain as prepared spell next day?)
2. If part 1 was a YES, if the wizard don't sleep, does it lose all their prepared spells.
3. For Cleric and Druid, without holy symbols, can they still cast spells... OR even prepare spells
The game did not continue from then on. Need to resolve this quickly
1. Yes, prepared spells stay until they are cast. They just don't gain new spells, until they prepare them again.
2. If the wizard doesn't sleep, he get's fatigued, but it doesn't affect his ability to cast spells.
3 The Cleric/Druid is supposed to select a given time each day that they commune with their god to regain spells. This requires rest, but the time selected doesn't need to be immediately after resting. The cleric is allowed to fudge the time a little bit, if unavoidable, but the cleric should give this high priority.
As for holy symbols, the Cleric/Druid need those only on spells that specifically list a Divine Focus requirement (abreviated as DF).
Furthermore, a Cleric can make holy symbols with an untrained craft check. See Craft, but it's very easy to make a simple wooden holy symbol, provided you have the time. A Druid could do the same, or they can search the forest for Holly and Mistletoe instead of a holy symbol - It functions the same for a druid, but has no cost or craft check to create (might require knowledge nature or survival to locate).
A DM could houserule in improvised symbol but I see no actual rules for it.
Note: the tattoo/brand you mentioned has a cost of 100gp and if erased/damaged it stops working. A drawing wouldn't be very sturdy/useful.
Please note in the rules where a Holy Symbol must be manufactured. Just because an item can be purchased doesn't mean that it must be.
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Please note in the rules where a Holy Symbol must be manufactured
As opposed to a naturally occuring holy symbol?
As mentioned the Druids have that Holly and Mistletoe, which functions as a holy symbol for them.
There is also a Birthmark trait option, which allows the cleric to be born with a holy symbol on their flesh.
There's also a bunch of archetypes and equipment that allow alternate holy symbols.
Please note in the rules where a Holy Symbol must be manufactured. Just because an item can be purchased doesn't mean that it must be.A DM could houserule in improvised symbol but I see no actual rules for it.
Note: the tattoo/brand you mentioned has a cost of 100gp and if erased/damaged it stops working. A drawing wouldn't be very sturdy/useful.
Let me ask YOU. Where are the improvised holy symbol rules? They have them for weapons. They have them for tools.
If we go your way, then why can't I improvise armor? Expensive materials? Other focuses? Why can't I improvise an animal companion? A spell? A skill? there's no rule that says you can't.
We have rules. If rules say you need an item, you need the item. If something improvised is allowed, the rules say so. Holy symbols have no such rule. Much like pan lids aren't shields, twigs aren't holy symbols, though if it has mistletoe on them it works for druids divine focus.
Please note in the rules where a Holy Symbol must be manufactured. Just because an item can be purchased doesn't mean that it must be.A DM could houserule in improvised symbol but I see no actual rules for it.
Note: the tattoo/brand you mentioned has a cost of 100gp and if erased/damaged it stops working. A drawing wouldn't be very sturdy/useful.
Let me ask YOU. Where are the improvised holy symbol rules? They have them for weapons. They have them for tools.
If we go your way, then why can't I improvise armor? Expensive materials? Other focuses? Why can't I improvise an animal companion? A spell? A skill? there's no rule that says you can't.
We have rules. If rules say you need an item, you need the item. If something improvised is allowed, the rules say so. Holy symbols have no such rule. Much like pan lids aren't shields, twigs aren't holy symbols, though if it has mistletoe on them it works for druids divine focus.
No - the game doesn't need a rule for everything.
That's how we ended up with 2990 feats.
But sure - why not - what's one more - a feat to create a holy symbol out of sticks....
Improvised holy symbol
Like humans throughout history, you can use sticks, twigs, clay, twine or other naturally occurring materials and make a holy symbol - this symbol is especially fragile and is destroyed if sundered.
:)
Let me ask YOU. Where are the improvised holy symbol rules? They have them for weapons. They have them for tools.
If we go your way, then why can't I improvise armor? Expensive materials? Other focuses? Why can't I improvise an animal companion? A spell? A skill? there's no rule that says you can't.
We have rules. If rules say you need an item, you need the item. If something improvised is allowed, the rules say so. Holy symbols have no such rule. Much like pan lids aren't shields, twigs aren't holy symbols, though if it has mistletoe on them it works for druids divine focus.
Ah, reductio ad absurdum. A classic!
Ah, reductio ad absurdum. A classic!Let me ask YOU. Where are the improvised holy symbol rules? They have them for weapons. They have them for tools.
If we go your way, then why can't I improvise armor? Expensive materials? Other focuses? Why can't I improvise an animal companion? A spell? A skill? there's no rule that says you can't.
We have rules. If rules say you need an item, you need the item. If something improvised is allowed, the rules say so. Holy symbols have no such rule. Much like pan lids aren't shields, twigs aren't holy symbols, though if it has mistletoe on them it works for druids divine focus.
We have rules for improvising things that are allowed to be improvised. like weapons and tools. How is it absurd to ask if someone is saying I can improvise one kind of component, I can't improvise others? And if the standard is "Please note in the rules", then that's just what I asked. Where ARE the rules for not paying what a required item costs? I didn't find them: So I had to ask, how far "it's not a rule so I can do it" went for the poster. If some of the suggestions seem absurd it might have to do with the position I'm asking about: He's free to let me know where it starts to sound silly to him. IMO improvising a pot lid as a shield is as valid as improvising a holy symbol or mugging a random badger and forcing it to be my familiar if the reason is 'cuz there isn't a rule that says I can't'.
No - the game doesn't need a rule for everything.
But we HAVE rules. Holy symbols have costs. If bark and twigs worked, there would be little reason to require them and they could be included in component pouches. Since the game doesn't handwave them, like individual components in a pouch, why assume you can?
We have a pattern that improvised things aren't as effective as the actual thing. Weapons have the lowest critical and minuses to hit. Tools have a minus on skills. What effect does an improvised holy symbol have? If it has none, that's a pretty good indication you can't do it.
If anything vampire movies should have taught us, it's the faith behind the symbol, not the symbol itself. :D
LOL If we go by movies then martials would be AWESOME, paladin would have lightsabers and vigilantes are rolling in cash.
On a serious note, those same movies often have the makeshift symbol not be effective or as effective as a real blessed one. And in contrast, pathfinder doesn't care about faith in this situation, just that a creature has "strongly presented holy symbol". This means that an intelligent construct that's programmed to can hold a vampire at bay while the faithful with sticks is out of luck.