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Hey everyone,
I've recently been looking into the advanced weapon training feat and the weapon master fighter achetype as a potential way to further increease my character's melee damage in the future. However, the wording of the feat leaves me with a few questions and I'm also wondering how the gloves of dueling would interact with the class features the advanced weapon training feat grants you access to.
The exact text of the feat is as follows (from the pathfinder reference document, I apologize for literally copying text but believe it to be needed for this):
Advanced weapon training:
“Req: fighter level 5, weapon training class feature.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels.
Special: Fighters that have the weapon master archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master’s advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.”
Supposing you are a weapon master, if I read this correctly, you could pick up this feat at level 4, and since a fighter gains a bonus feat at fourth level, you could pick it up again immediately since picking it as a bonus feat is stated to not count for the ‘only once per five levels rule’. My first question would be if this is correct, since that seems REALLY strong considering how super powerful some of those advanced weapon training options are, and getting two of them at level 4 makes a 4 level dip in weapon master for just about any melee class seem really good.
Now, let’s say that for one of those feats, we decide to pick this advanced weapon training option (as an example):
“Weapon Specialist (Ex) The fighter selects a number of combat feats that he knows equal to his weapon training bonus with the associated weapon group. The selected feats must be ones that require the fighter to choose a type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization), and the fighter must have chosen weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group. The fighter is treated as having the selected feats for all the weapons in the associated weapon group that are legal choices for those feats... (etc).”
Now, how exactly would these types of weapon training level-dependant bonusses interact with the gloves of dueling, who are stated to increase your weapon training bonus by 2 while worn if you're using an appropriate weapon? If my normal weapon training bonus (as a weapon master, who only has weapon training in 1 weapon and will likely only ever use that weapon) is +1 but gets boosted to +3 with the gloves, could I then pick 3 weapon specific feats with the weapon specialist feature? And what would happen to those feats if I somehow lose the gloves? Is this situation any different from wearing a stat increasing item and using that to qualify for feats? (I’m not sure on this since the stat increasing items has text that states the bonus becomes permanent after 24 hours, however the gloves of dueling bonus is also permanent as long as you’re wearing it…)
Any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated, as always!
Edit: oops, I somehow missed the part stating weapon masters cannot pick weapon specialisation in the feat description, I rolled a 1 on my perception there. Sorry!
Yes, the Advanced Weapon Training feat would let you pick it twice, once at 4th and again at 5th. You could even take it again at 6th level if you wished, but not at 7th level.
For the Weapon Specialist option, you wouldn't be able to select it with any of your feats if you are a Weapon Master Fighter.
As for the Gloves of Dueling, it increases the Weapon Training bonus you have by +2. Which means any effects scaling with Weapon Training bonus are likewise increased.
**EDIT** And no, that doesn't mean you get 2 extra Advanced Weapon Training options.
gloves of dueling work with AWT
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Yes, the Advanced Weapon Training feat would let you pick it twice, once at 4th and again at 5th. You could even take it again at 6th level if you wished, but not at 7th level.
For the Weapon Specialist option, you wouldn't be able to select it with any of your feats if you are a Weapon Master Fighter.
As for the Gloves of Dueling, it increases the Weapon Training bonus you have by +2. Which means any effects scaling with Weapon Training bonus are likewise increased.
**EDIT** And no, that doesn't mean you get 2 extra Advanced Weapon Training options.
Thanks for the response, I indeed somehow missed the literal text stating weapon masters cannot take that option.
I am a bit confused on your answer regarding when a weapon specialist can take this feat. The text seems to state that a weapon master can take it at level 4, with the restriction that it can still only be taken once every 5 levels. However, he can also take it as a bonus feat so that this rule doesn't apply. Since a fighter has no bonus feat at level 5, assuming you took the feat at level 4, how could he take it at 5 again?
a weapon master fighter can take it as bonus feat starting at 4, and then can take it normally following the normal restrictions for a fighter.
The naming is a bit confusing. Advanced weapon training is the name of a class feature and also a feat to get more of that class feature. The weapon master doesn't get the class feature but can take the feat to get it instead. So at 4th level, they can take the feat with their bonus feat and then they can take it again everytime they gain a bonus feat. If they take it at 4 with a bonus feat, they wouldn't be able to take it again at level 5, because they already have it once, and if it's not a bonus feat it still has to obey the limitation about how often you can take it.
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He can also retrain his level one or level two bonus feat at 4th level, to get two AWT feats at fourth level - one from his first or second level bonus feat, and one from his fourth level bonus feat. He can then take his fifth level normal feat as an AWT feat, his sixth level bonus feat as an AWT feat, and his 7th level normal feat as an AWT feat.
However, none of those feats can be used to take weapon specialist, because the weapon master fighter is explicitly banned from taking it.
The naming is a bit confusing. Advanced weapon training is the name of a class feature and also a feat to get more of that class feature. The weapon master doesn't get the class feature but can take the feat to get it instead. So at 4th level, they can take the feat with their bonus feat and then they can take it again everytime they gain a bonus feat. If they take it at 4 with a bonus feat, they wouldn't be able to take it again at level 5, because they already have it once, and if it's not a bonus feat it still has to obey the limitation about how often you can take it.
Yes, they can take it at 5th level. And again at 6th level. Read the text again:
A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So, you can pick it at 4th level, not have it count against your once per 5 levels limitation, pick it again at 5th level, have it count against your once per 5 levels limitation, and pick it at 3rd time at 6th level, not having it count against your once per 5 levels limitation once more. You wouldn't be able to select it at 7th level, since you are stuck with the once per 5 levels limitation, but every even level afterward, you could take this feat with the Fighter Bonus Feat.
The general idea is that you can take this feat with both regular and bonus feat slots; the bonus feats don't count as and aren't limited to the once per 5 levels limitation, whereas the regular feats are.
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The naming is a bit confusing. Advanced weapon training is the name of a class feature and also a feat to get more of that class feature. The weapon master doesn't get the class feature but can take the feat to get it instead.
So any archetype that replaces the standard weapon training with a more specified version like the Dragoon's spear training don't get access to AWT without using a feat on it?
Edit: Never mind I misread the text reading over the part where you pick awt in place of a new weapon training group.