Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman’s native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
So does an oracle who takes this hex just add the spells to her spells known like the archetype does with the spirit magic spells? Is it only temporary? Is it permanent? I understand it'll be Charisma based, based on the Archetype.
This sounds like a complete game changer if you have a high enough Intelligence, even if you don't have a exceptionally high intelligence, say only a 14 that's still 4th level spells and under, that completely opens the door up in terms of variety for a oracle. This is the best archetype class ever for a spontaneous spellcaster.
|
The general consensus is: It doesn't work at all.
Oracles do not prepare spells, so they can't actually gain anything from this hex. Personally, my GM allows me to use wands and scrolls without requiring the UMD checks for spells I picked with this Hex, but that's about the best you will get (was very helpful when we got a CL5 Wand of Magic Missiles at level 4).
This hex just didn't survive the entire 'oracle revelation converted into shaman spirit hex converted into Spirit Guide hex' process.
Addendum: Remember that Spirit Guide Hexes swap Charisma for Wisdom and vice versa, so the spells you 'add' are based on:
- Wisdom for number of spells.
- Intelligence for Spell Level Cap, and
- Charisma for Save DCs and the like.
That seems so weird to me, to allow one aspect to circumvent a aspect of a class, but not another which does something similar or would do something similar.
The general consensus is: It doesn't work at all.
Oracles do not prepare spells, so they can't actually gain anything from this hex. Personally, my GM allows me to use wands and scrolls without requiring the UMD checks for spells I picked with this Hex, but that's about the best you will get (was very helpful when we got a CL5 Wand of Magic Missiles at level 4).
This hex just didn't survive the entire 'oracle revelation converted into shaman spirit hex converted into Spirit Guide hex' process.
Addendum: Remember that Spirit Guide Hexes swap Charisma for Wisdom and vice versa, so the spells you 'add' are based on:
Basically, you need a lot of decent-to-good ability scores to get this to work (if it actually worked, which it doesn't).
- Wisdom for number of spells.
- Intelligence for Spell Level Cap, and
- Charisma for Save DCs and the like.
The ability score issues is easy to mitigate unless you wanted like 9th level spells or something, but in that case why are you playing oracle if you wanted to be a wizard? There are at least 2 races I can think of off the top of my head that get a +2 to Int and Cha, (Changeling with Witchborn trait,) and the female Lashuta. And if the DM is allowing powerful races then the Drow Noble with it's +2 to all mental stats definitely helps with this. All that's left is getting a Headband of Mental Superiority, factor in that you could easily make the headband with the right item creation feat and cut the cost in half, most of the issue is eliminated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if you have the Versatile Spontenaity feat?
Then you can be an oracle who prepares a spell.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Arcane Enlightment is a class feature. Thus the wizard spells are added to the caster's list. But while the shaman can prepare his spells everytime, the Oracle is locked to his spells known, thus he cannot cast those spells immediately despite those being added to his list. On the other hand he theoretically can use them with items like Page of Spell Knowledge of the divine type or Spell Lattice, and can use Divine Scrolls and Wands.
Now the interesting thing: the Oracle at some levels can change the spells known, and so he could add those spells at such times.
Arcane Enlightment is a class feature. Thus the wizard spells are added to the caster's list. But while the shaman can prepare his spells everytime, the Oracle is locked to his spells known, thus he cannot cast those spells immediately despite those being added to his list. On the other hand he theoretically can use them with items like Page of Spell Knowledge of the divine type or Spell Lattice, and can use Divine Scrolls and Wands.
Now the interesting thing: the Oracle at some levels can change the spells known, and so he could add those spells at such times.
That sounds reasonable
|
|
The ability score issues is easy to mitigate unless you wanted like 9th level spells or something, but in that case why are you playing oracle if you wanted to be a wizard? There are at least 2 races I can think of off the top of my head that get a +2 to Int and Cha, (Changeling with Witchborn trait,) and the female Lashuta. And if the DM is allowing powerful races then the Drow Noble with it's +2 to all mental stats definitely helps with this. All that's left is getting a Headband of Mental Superiority, factor in that you could easily make the headband with the right item creation feat and cut the cost in half, most of the issue is eliminated.
Most Oracles are not going to put a lot of point into Wisdom and Intelligence: Maybe one of them, but probably not both. Yes, you can get a headband, but carfting or not, every gold you spend on that item is a gold you aren't spending somewhere else. Also, crafting expensive items is a lot cheaper than buying 'off the shelf' but you need a lot of downtime to do it. A Headband of Mental Superiority +6 is either 144,000g, or a mere 72,000g and 144 days of work (or 72 days if using the 'rush' crafting option). Compared to the 36,000g retail / 18,000g crafted for Headband of Alluring Charisma +6, this is a pretty large investment of your resources to gain a handful of spells of fairly low level.
The real downside of investing resources like this is that you are investing in one feature that you are encouraged to swap out daily: Depending on the situation, you might find another spirit better suited than your Lore spirit. (Personally, I found myself using a Flame Spirit when expecting non-fire resistant opponents and then swapping to a Lore or Ancestors spirit for down time or when expecting outsiders).
My WotR Heavens Spirit Guide
20 point build: 16, 14, 12, 12, 12 9
Race: Azata Aasimar (+2 Cha & Dex)
Str: 9
Dex: 12+2 = 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 16+2 = 18
At 13th level, I've crafted a +2 Int / +6 Cha headband and I don't have a lot of leftover cash or free time (I've even been using 'rush' crafting and working while adventuring).
In conclusion, you probably could get the stats to make this work, but there is always a price to pay...
What if you have the Versatile Spontenaity feat?
Then you can be an oracle who prepares a spell.
Yes; all you need is the ability to prepare spells. Versatile Spontaneity satisfies this requirement. You still need to satisfy Versatile Spontaneity's requirements (spellbook or scrolls, Wis 13).
|
I doubt the whole thing work, as the Spirit Guide is a temporary effect that is renewed every day while preparing the spells.
At 3rd level, a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman’s wandering spirit class feature. She must make this selection each day when she refreshes her spells. A spirit guide cannot bond with a spirit that is incompatible with her alignment, ethos, or mystery (GM’s discretion).
As selecting the spirit guide and the hex is part of the preparation process, the spell granted by the hex aren't available for memorization when you start refreshing them.
The part about having access to wands and staves without UMD work. For scrolls, you need a scroll with the divine version of the spell, as scroll are differentiated between divine and arcane versions.
As selecting the spirit guide and the hex is part of the preparation process, the spell granted by the hex aren't available for memorization when you start refreshing them.
This makes no sense that I can discern. Could you clarify what distinction you're trying to make?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes there is table variance. There isn't a concebsus. Thee have been many discussions of this in the past.
My view is that it works and is compliant with the FAQ.
"She can prepare" for a prepared caster is the same as "spell known".
It's a class feature adding a known spell, so compliant with the FAQ.
They should be able to cast the spells for the limited time they have them.
|
|
This makes no sense that I can discern. Could you clarify what distinction you're trying to make?As selecting the spirit guide and the hex is part of the preparation process, the spell granted by the hex aren't available for memorization when you start refreshing them.
You get the benefits of spell preparation and all that come with it after you have completed spell preparation, not before or during spell preparation (proved by the simple fact that if you don't complete spell preparation you don't get the benefits). So the spirit is available after you have completed spell preparation. But if the spirit isn't available while you are preparing your spells, you can't prepare those spells.
This makes no sense that I can discern. Could you clarify what distinction you're trying to make?As selecting the spirit guide and the hex is part of the preparation process, the spell granted by the hex aren't available for memorization when you start refreshing them.
You get the benefits of spell preparation and all that come with it after you have completed spell preparation, not before or during spell preparation (proved by the simple fact that if you don't complete spell preparation you don't get the benefits). So the spirit is available after you have completed spell preparation. But if the spirit isn't available while you are preparing your spells, you can't prepare those spells.
The problem with this interpretation is that it flies in the face of the already established benefits of the archetype itself, if the spirit isn't present until after you gain spell preparations, then how could you ever get the spirit magic spells the associated spirit grants the spellcaster as described by the archetype itself, "At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit’s spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only of spell levels she can cast." Note that they say bonded which means she's already chosen the spirit and it's now bonded to her, so this would happen after her spell preparations for the day.
"At 3rd level, a spirit guide can form a temporary bond with a spirit, as the shaman’s wandering spirit class feature. She must make this selection each day when she refreshes her spells."|
|
The problem is that Paizo has never really decide how that work.
Think magus:
- you recover your arcana point when you memorize the spells.
- if you are unable to recover your spells, you don't recover the arcana points (I have played in that situation, a pain in the ass).
- with Knowledge Pool you can expend arcana point to memorize spells that aren't in your spell book.
So, what arcana point are you expending with Knowledge Pool? yesterday leftover points? Some of the points you haven't jet recovered?
Mr. Schrodinger Arcana points?
"You get the benefits of spell preparation and all that come with it after you have completed spell preparation, not before or during spell preparation (proved by the simple fact that if you don't complete spell preparation you don't get the benefits). So the spirit is available after you have completed spell preparation. But if the spirit isn't available while you are preparing your spells, you can't prepare those spells.
It uses similar terminology to the text of Versatile Spontaneity.
'when she refreshes her spells'
vs.
'when you regain spell slots at the start of the day'.
To say one is unavailable to the other when they're predicated to be available at the same time is more than a little obtuse.
It's also remarkably like saying a prepared caster can't prepare spells because he has no empty spell slots to prepare spells into until after preparation. We know that's patently false as the cleric and wizard class text specify that they get the benefit of empty slots to prepare into 'while' and 'during' preparation. So at least some of the benefits of spell preparation are available during the spell preparation itself.
Further, it's the same trigger text as for the Shaman class description of wandering spirit and wandering hex. To argue that it doesn't work for a Spirit Guide Oracle due to some minutiae of word choice means it wouldn't work for the class it was originally written for either.
You had to really reach to be contrary on that one. What would you have accomplished? That someone who wanted to use the arcane enlightenment hex would have to wait until they prepared spells the next day?
|
|
It's also remarkably like saying a prepared caster can't prepare spells because he has no empty spell slots to prepare spells into until after preparation. We know that's patently false as the cleric and wizard class text specify that they get the benefit of empty slots to prepare into 'while' and 'during' preparation. So at least some of the benefits of
Specifically addressed by the rules.
Spell Selection and Preparation: Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, he chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that he has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.
The problem is that Paizo has never really decide how that work.
Think magus:
- you recover your arcana point when you memorize the spells.
- if you are unable to recover your spells, you don't recover the arcana points (I have played in that situation, a pain in the ass).
- with Knowledge Pool you can expend arcana point to memorize spells that aren't in your spell book.So, what arcana point are you expending with Knowledge Pool? yesterday leftover points? Some of the points you haven't jet recovered?
Mr. Schrodinger Arcana points?
I think the problem arises from treating preparation like a binary event. Some of the benefits of preparation have to be available during the preparation itself in order for the concept to work at all. Empty slots are available to be used during preparation. New arcana points that affect preparation are available during preparation. Access to spell lists is available during preparation.
There's no effort to break down the concept beyond the start time and the length of the time required because it shouldn't take an instruction manual to walk a player through a concept that's largely hand-waived.
|
|
... a concept that's largely hand-waived.
That work fine as long as the players don't try to get extra benefits from that hand waving.
Trying to get access as spontaneous spellcasters to several new, different, spells, every day has already been squished by the FAQs (see Paragon Surge). I doubt that if this is ever FAQed they will rule differently.
... a concept that's largely hand-waived.That work fine as long as the players don't try to get extra benefits from that hand waving.
Trying to get access as spontaneous spellcasters to several new, different, spells, every day has already been squished by the FAQs (see Paragon Surge). I doubt that if this is ever FAQed they will rule differently.
No, the Paragon Surge FAQ didn't stop access to Extra Spells Known- just that you couldn't change what you gained more than once a day.
Also the FAQs have never squished Spell Sage, or Spell Kenning, or Versatile Spontaneity, or the handful of other options for off class spells. They just specifically squished New Arcana or anything else that might add a spell known without adding it to the class spell list.
To my knowledge Scaled Disciple still works as intended after the FAQs because the Blood of Dragon spells are added to the class rather than the Spells Known.
|
|
... a concept that's largely hand-waived.That work fine as long as the players don't try to get extra benefits from that hand waving.
Trying to get access as spontaneous spellcasters to several new, different, spells, every day has already been squished by the FAQs (see Paragon Surge). I doubt that if this is ever FAQed they will rule differently.
Unless it's a class feature.
Let's not gloss over that important part of the FAQ just because it undermines your argument.
Different point, read what I cited: Paragon Surge.
Half-Elf, paragon surge: Can I cast paragon surge multiple times in a day to gain different benefits?
No. The first time each day that you cast paragon surge, you must select a feat and make all the associated choices that come with it. Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions.
What you guys are trying to do here is the same thing: play with matryoshka to get access to a variable set of wizard spells.
You are taking a temporary benefit and making it point to a permanent benefit to get a way to change the a permanent benefit of a class every day.
Probably that it will be squished if it become too common in PFS: very high.
Diego, I think you're overstating.
Paragon Surge + New Arcana pre-FAQ was about as powerful as the Razmiran Priest. We're talking a power level well above and beyond this.
A Shaman can already use Arcane Enlightenment this way and is a full prepared caster to boot. Spirit Guide Oracle spending a feat to use the hex the same way doesn't catch it up in terms of power even to any of the full prepared casters.
Additionally, they can get similar flexibilty out of Ancient Lorekeeper or the Shadow mystery without becoming MAD which using Arcane Enlightenment requires.