Spiritualists -> Phantoms -> Intelligence and skills


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Two questions:

1) Is there any way to increase a Spiritualist Phantom's/Shade's Intelligence score other than level progression and the Human Eye for Talent racial ability (my Spiritualist is going to be a Dhampir, so that latter's no help)?

2) The Phantom/Shade advancement table says they get 2 skill points per HD, but given that its base Intelligence is only 7 (a raw deal that makes less sense for them than it does for Eidolons, in my opinion), and unlike Eidolons they only get 2+Intelligence modifier skill ranks, do they really only get 1?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

2) Yes.

Scarab Sages

Anyone else?

Liberty's Edge

1) You can increase his intelligence with the "Ability score increase" (up to 3 points), give it some magic item that increase intelligence (but only when fully manifested, so not particularly helpful) or use wish like magic to increase the intelligence of the phantom.

None of the above options is very useful until you raise the intelligence of the phantom by 3 points.

Animal companions share that problem. My wolf is way worse than me in perception, stealth and so on.


Remember they also get free max ranks in their emotional focus skills. If you're after skills in particular the Cunning feat may help.

Scarab Sages

avr wrote:
Remember they also get free max ranks in their emotional focus skills. If you're after skills in particular the Cunning feat may help.

It looks to me like the feat you're referring to is third-party - but this is a Pathfinder Society character I'm talking about.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

My interpretation. Phantoms get four skill points per level. Two of these ranks are from their emotional focus, and cannot be freely placed. Another two skill ranks can be placed in any other skills.

Reasoning: Phantoms are outsiders. Outsiders get 6 skill points per HD. Intelligence 7 eats 2 of those skill points. Four remain. (I consider the "2+Int modifier" to already include the penalty for Int 7.)

If you were to increase the Intelligence of a Phantom to 8, it would gain one additional skill point per HD.

Phantoms also gain the same class skills as basic outsiders, with the exception of Intimidate, one freely chosen skill, and the two emotional focus class skills. Since each outsider gains 4 additional class skills, this is fine. One of the many tiny things that bugs me is that they often 'lose' some of these additional class skills, since since emotional focus class skills sometimes overlap with existing class skills.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
avr wrote:
Remember they also get free max ranks in their emotional focus skills. If you're after skills in particular the Cunning feat may help.
It looks to me like the feat you're referring to is third-party - but this is a Pathfinder Society character I'm talking about.

cunning is from villian's codex and is PFS legal

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:


cunning is from villian's codex and is PFS legal

Well I'll be darned; perhaps I should get that.

Sovereign Court

Naal wrote:

My interpretation. Phantoms get four skill points per level. Two of these ranks are from their emotional focus, and cannot be freely placed. Another two skill ranks can be placed in any other skills.

Reasoning: Phantoms are outsiders. Outsiders get 6 skill points per HD. Intelligence 7 eats 2 of those skill points. Four remain. (I consider the "2+Int modifier" to already include the penalty for Int 7.)

If you were to increase the Intelligence of a Phantom to 8, it would gain one additional skill point per HD.

Phantoms also gain the same class skills as basic outsiders, with the exception of Intimidate, one freely chosen skill, and the two emotional focus class skills. Since each outsider gains 4 additional class skills, this is fine. One of the many tiny things that bugs me is that they often 'lose' some of these additional class skills, since since emotional focus class skills sometimes overlap with existing class skills.

I feel you are spiritual correct that a phantom should get 6 skill points per HD, -2 because of int and 2 chosen for them, but that is not what the text says.

Text says 2 + int for phantoms which leads me to think they get 1 skill point a level you can pick, or you just get the 2 points in the skills of the emotional focus. The table kind of points to the phantom getting 2 skill points that you choose where they go and 2 you put in the emotional focus skills.
I wish some one would clarify for pfs sake. In a home game the GM could answer the question and move on.

Scarab Sages

torrquan wrote:


I wish some one would clarify for pfs sake. In a home game the GM could answer the question and move on.

Very much seconded.

*tries lighting the Dev-Signal*


Yes, you get 2+int ranks that you can assign, and then free ranks into their emotional skills.

Scarab Sages

*BUMP*

I'd really appreciate an official adjudication.


seems like you're not familiar with how the forums work. You can only get an official response if you have like 50+ FAQ requests on your post so that the PDT decides to answer that for the FAQ on a Friday. Other than that route this is no way to get an official answer.

The next best thing would be to go the the "ask me anything" threads and hope they answer it and that's at least what 1 person of the PDT thinks it works, but if they do answer, it's in no way official, the remind people of that all the time.

Scarab Sages

This is the sort of thing that deserves official clarification (especially for the sake of Pathfinder Society) - what do I do, then? So far on this thread, I've received 2 or more contradictory judgments, all with respectable reasons.


If hoping for a PFS clarification you can add it onto the thread for clarification requests and hope that PFS leadership decides to answer it, but that too has over 100 issues and growing on the list and we get a few answered a month if we're lucky.

If PFS your best bet is asking a few of the main GM's their thoughts and if they all agree go with that. Or, go with the simplest answer that it is 2 + int which unfortunately mean 1 rank of choice and then having full ranks in their emotional skill and just run with it. No GM should really be suspicious of it and tell you it's wrong and thus you're good.

Scarab Sages

But in the absence of something From On High, the people where I play (the Flaxseed Lodge on here, as it happens) can make their own judgment?

Liberty's Edge

Sure.


Spiritualist

It appears that:

*The Phantom gains skills per the Manifested Phantom's Base Statistics table, which shows the skill/level progression (which is slightly less than 2/level)
2/4/6/6/8/10/12/12/14/16/18/18... and so on

*The Phantom gains two additional class skills based upon its focus.

*Further to the base stats indicated above, the Phantom automatically receives 1 skill rank per HD in each of the relevant focus skills.

*Raising the Phantoms Int will raise the number of skill ranks it has (ie at 5th/10th/15th)

*Regardless of how you get higher Int/more skill ranks, the phantom cannot exceed the 1rank/hd limit.

Liberty's Edge

Shifty wrote:

Spiritualist

It appears that:

*The Phantom gains skills per the Manifested Phantom's Base Statistics table, which shows the skill/level progression (which is slightly less than 2/level)
2/4/6/6/8/10/12/12/14/16/18/18... and so on

It 2 points for HD/level of the phantom, not of the spiritualist. The phantom get 3 HD every 4 levels of the spiritualist.

Shifty wrote:


*Raising the Phantoms Int will raise the number of skill ranks it has (ie at 5th/10th/15th)

*Regardless of how you get higher Int/more skill ranks, the phantom cannot exceed the 1rank/hd limit.

With a starting intelligence of 7 and 2 points/HD you need to get an intelligence of 12 to gain some extra skill point (my earlier post wasn't clear about that, but the methods I suggested work only after you get to int 10).


Diego Rossi wrote:


It 2 points for HD/level of the phantom, not of the spiritualist. The phantom get 3 HD every 4 levels of the spiritualist.

Yes indeed, but I was referring to the Phantoms 'level' as indicated on the table :)

And yes it is rather difficult to boost up the Phantoms Int to a point where it will gain meaningful amounts of additional skill ranks. They seem to make poor Skill Monkeys :)

Scarab Sages

But you are ruling that they get 2 skill points/HD, not counting free ranks in "Emotion skills?"

Liberty's Edge

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
But you are ruling that they get 2 skill points/HD, not counting free ranks in "Emotion skills?"

The free ranks are free ranks, separated from the main ranks.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
But in the absence of something From On High, the people where I play (the Flaxseed Lodge on here, as it happens) can make their own judgment?

if something isn't clear then any GM of any table is able to make their own judgment on how it works.

So if you have 4 GMs that you normally play under though, you can ask them what they think and if they are all the same then you're good unless official clarification forces them to change. If you have completely random GMs then I suggest taking the approach that you get 1 skill you pick and the 2 free skills and just go with it, GM aren't likely to care and I doubt any that do wouldn't be okay with that view.


I really wish their was a 'archetype' for Phantoms and Ediolons that gave them higher mental skills and lower physical ones.

Scarab Sages

Diego Rossi wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
But you are ruling that they get 2 skill points/HD, not counting free ranks in "Emotion skills?"
The free ranks are free ranks, separated from the main ranks.

I know that, hence my distinguishing them from the ranks I'm inquiring about.


Pregen phantom has 4 skill points total per HD. That's how I'll be running things.


Oh great idea looking at the pregen, why didn't we think of that sooner


Since everyone is in the room, do think it is by accident or intent that phantoms can't get some of the monster feats that animal companions quality for? Mostly looking at improved natural attack for PFS.


DM Livgin wrote:
Since everyone is in the room, do think it is by accident or intent that phantoms can't get some of the monster feats that animal companions quality for? Mostly looking at improved natural attack for PFS.

I don't see any reason why they wouldn't unless there is something specific to PFS that I'm missing. As far as RAW goes there is absolutely nothing keeping them from taking it.

Scarab Sages

Another question I'd like to tack on about Phantoms's skills: When a Phantom is inside the Spiritualist's consciousness (or a Shade hiding in a Shade Caller's shadow), can the Spiritualist access the Phantom's Knowledge skills, if they have them?


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Another question I'd like to tack on about Phantoms's skills: When a Phantom is inside the Spiritualist's consciousness (or a Shade hiding in a Shade Caller's shadow), can the Spiritualist access the Phantom's Knowledge skills, if they have them?

Bumping this, also because the Kineticist Elemental Whispers has similar wording on the familiar residing with the consciousness.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
DM Livgin wrote:
Since everyone is in the room, do think it is by accident or intent that phantoms can't get some of the monster feats that animal companions quality for? Mostly looking at improved natural attack for PFS.
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't unless there is something specific to PFS that I'm missing. As far as RAW goes there is absolutely nothing keeping them from taking it.

PFS has a list of feats that are permitted for players in the campaign, Animal Companions receive an exemption list that includes Imp Nat Attack. As is Phantoms can not take Imp Nat Attack in the PFS campaign, going to ask in the campaign clarifications thread.

Scarab Sages

DM Livgin wrote:
As is Phantoms can not take Imp Nat Attack in the PFS campaign, going to ask in the campaign clarifications thread.

They could certainly use it, given that their Strength never improves (not that that doesn't make sense).

Do they ever get more attacks?


No. But Anger phantoms can improve their Strength over their Charisma.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
No. But Anger phantoms can improve their Strength over their Charisma.

Oh whoops, I mean Dexterity. My bad!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Spiritualists -> Phantoms -> Intelligence and skills All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.