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Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .But isn't that because the rules specifically say that shields can be turned into magic weapons? Frying pans don't have that language.No, the only restriction with Magic Weapons is that you must have Masterwork Weapons.
If Shields are Weapons, and you make them Masterwork, then you do, in fact, have a Masterwork Weapon. It just doesn't confer an Enhancement Bonus to attack rolls like other Masterwork Weapons.
Can you cite where it say that?
Shields are martial weapons. So normal weapons. Normal weapons can be made as masterwork weapons and masterwork weapons get a bonus to attack.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See "shield, heavy" on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
That piece of text is under Armor. AFAIK it is related to shield enhanced as a defensive item.
Under weapons it say:
Shield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense.
without any limitation about being enhanced as a weapon.
For something to ever be considered a masterwork weapon, it first needs to be designed to be a weapon in the first place.Please give me the exact definition of a normal weapon. Because i read it as a normal weapon is a a weapon that is not masterwork. If magic weapon had the text that said you may enchant a normal weapon to be a plus one weapon, i would read that as, normal is nonmagical. Context matters and to simply say how you read it as being correct is asinine.
English. The language many people use in the real world. Also the language used by the game. "Normal" isn't a defined game term in the context of weapons, so we apply its meaning in plain English where it appears in those rules.
Try it: walk up to someone with chair and try to convince them it's a normal weapon. Try it with a vase.
Also:
"A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon."
Where this appears in the rules, magical weapons have not been introduced as a concept, so how could "normal" in that sentence refer to magical weapons?
Try it: walk up to someone with chair and try to convince them it's a normal weapon. Try it with a vase.
Now try it with a staff or club... neither is crafted: pick up a piece of wood and there you go. How about wooden stakes? Same there too. What about a gauntlet? That rake [Kumade]? that [battle] ladder? that crook or Ankus, tools that "can be used as a weapon in a pinch".
things aren't as clear cut as you're trying to put it.
I'm making statements about items considered to be improvised weapons by everyone, universally.
A layman's lack of knowledge about weapons that aren't improvised has no bearing on it. Items explicitly stated to be weapons in the game rules especially.
Is a chair a normal weapon? Is a vase a normal weapon?
In the rules, the intent of the creator of the item decides the status of the item:
"Because such objects are not designed for this use" (referring to use in combat)
If the crafter intends it be be used in combat as a weapon, it becomes a weapon, and all the rules pertaining to weapons come with that, including the 300 gold masterwork cost. It may turn out to be a weird exotic costum weapon that comes with the same penalty as improvised weapons if you don't take a feat to use it, but it'll come with all the advantages of being a weapon.
Shields say otherwise: they can never be made masterwork as a weapon, only as armor, yet they are weapons and, if masterwork, can receive weapon enchantments .But isn't that because the rules specifically say that shields can be turned into magic weapons? Frying pans don't have that language.No, the only restriction with Magic Weapons is that you must have Masterwork Weapons.
If Shields are Weapons, and you make them Masterwork, then you do, in fact, have a Masterwork Weapon. It just doesn't confer an Enhancement Bonus to attack rolls like other Masterwork Weapons.
Can you cite where it say that?
Shields are martial weapons. So normal weapons. Normal weapons can be made as masterwork weapons and masterwork weapons get a bonus to attack.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See "shield, heavy" on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.That piece of text is under Armor. AFAIK it is related to shield enhanced as a defensive item.
Under weapons it say:without any limitation about being enhanced as a weapon.
Shield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.
The entry implies that you can have multiple versions of Masterwork Weaponry (usually because Armor and Shields are used as weapons as well), and that Armor and Shields that are Weapons cannot have the Enhancement Bonus.
But, even with that difference, we know that A. a Shield is a Weapon, and B. The Shield is still of Masterwork Quality.
Therefore, you fulfill all of the written requirements of making it into a Magic Weapon.
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Not siding with anyone.
I think for a strict RAW reading, yes, improvised weapons are weapons in the CRB and can therefore be made magical or masterwork. That said, what makes an improvised weapon considered to be one, is in it not being designed to be used in that manner. So the idea of making a masterwork or magical weapon that is supposed to work how it isn't supposed to work, is the key issue here. Once you start making chair legs to be weapons, they kinda stop being improvised weapons....So the argument is circular. Exactly what makes them eligible to become magic weapons is what makes them ineligible.
As for the use of spells and such, I note the irony that magic weapon (the spell) would probably work on a chair leg, but you couldn't actually make a +1 improvised chair leg under the current rules.
For non-PFS play, there is a really simple solution here: Have the GM add the specific improvised weapon as an exotic weapon for the character that wants the magic improvised weapon. We've already got the Dwarven Helmet and the Gnomish Battle Ladder, a few more mundane objects turned into exotic weapons shouldn't hurt the list.
And if the Chair Leg is an Exotic Weapon, all the issues regarding enchanting it go away.
Once you start making chair legs to be weapons, they kinda stop being improvised weapons....
Why would you think a chair leg is an improvised weapon when it is obviously a gnomish greatclub. It is a martial weapon.
*per great club weapon description, nearly anything can be designated as a club by the user, including random sticks picked up off the ground.
I'm making statements about items considered to be improvised weapons by everyone, universally.
A layman's lack of knowledge about weapons that aren't improvised has no bearing on it. Items explicitly stated to be weapons in the game rules especially.
Is a chair a normal weapon? Is a vase a normal weapon?
In the rules, the intent of the creator of the item decides the status of the item:
"Because such objects are not designed for this use" (referring to use in combat)
If the crafter intends it be be used in combat as a weapon, it becomes a weapon, and all the rules pertaining to weapons come with that, including the 300 gold masterwork cost. It may turn out to be a weird exotic costum weapon that comes with the same penalty as improvised weapons if you don't take a feat to use it, but it'll come with all the advantages of being a weapon.
You ignored what I wrote though. For instance, that the crook or Ankus are TOOLS that "can be used as a weapon in a pinch". They are MADE AS TOOLS and are on the weapons chart. The intent of the creator was to make a tool and even so they made a weapon. So intent MEANS NOTHING, only the end produce does.
Clubs, staves and stakes are things picked up off the ground that require NO crafting and they too are weapons. There was NO intent and no creator. So this idea that the creator designates an object as a weapon is clearly false and easily proven wrong.
PS: Snowlilly has a good point too: While a little work goes into a greatclub [5gp worth], it's called out as possibly "a simple branch from a tree". It's hard to complain about mastercraft improvised weapons when you can mastercraft "a simple branch from a tree".
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Once you start making chair legs to be weapons, they kinda stop being improvised weapons....Why would you think a chair leg is an improvised weapon when it is obviously a gnomish greatclub. It is a martial weapon.
*per great club weapon description, nearly anything can be designated as a club by the user, including random sticks picked up off the ground.
Up to the GM on how they want to handle that. Chair leg was my example improvised weapon because it's easy to picture.
Though regarding the technical difference. The Club being a manufactured weapon means that it is created with the Craft (Weapons) Skill. It's a DC12 skill check to make a simple weapon. You could probably get a hefty circumstance bonus if you started with a chair leg and might be able to forgo the week required to craft it.
Regarding Greatclubs, that's a fickle weapon. Is is a Martial Weapon (Greatclub), an Oversized Simple Weapon (Club), or an Improvised Weapon? Totally up to the GM when you try to pick it up and use it as such.
If I were GM, I'd default to whichever is best for the player. I might require a craft (weapons) check if they want it to not be an improvised weapon, but Craft skills can be attempted untrained, so it doesn't seem unreasonable. And if they started with something like a tree limb, I'd give a very nice circumstance bonus and allow them to do it quickly.
I've always known that this argument was circular, and I understand that most want to use the trait that adds 2 attack for using an improvised weapon while enhancing that improvised weapon. I think my problem with the circular thing is that I have no problem turning my improvised shovel into a "shovel" weapon (where it's not longer improvised). The problem is that where does that fall under? Is it still a simple weapon? Or is it a martial? What if I'm a class who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency and shovel is not on my list of proficient weapons?
There's no rules on that. Do I lose my (improvised) proficiency because I turned it into a weapon?
Regarding Greatclubs, that's a fickle weapon. Is is a Martial Weapon (Greatclub), an Oversized Simple Weapon (Club), or an Improvised Weapon? Totally up to the GM when you try to pick it up and use it as such.
It is a demonstration that weapon classifications in Pathfinder are subjective, determined by how the character/player perceives the weapon.
Which was the entire point of my post.
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I've always known that this argument was circular, and I understand that most want to use the trait that adds 2 damage for using an improvised weapon while enhancing that improvised weapon. I think my problem with the circular thing is that I have no problem turning my improvised shovel into a "shovel" weapon (where it's not longer improvised). The problem is that where does that fall under? Is it still a simple weapon? Or is it a martial? What if I'm a class who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency and shovel is not on my list of proficient weapons?
There's no rules on that. Do I lose my (improvised) proficiency because I turned it into a weapon?
There's no "improvised proficency". Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything allow you to ignore the Improvised Penalties, but you don't become proficent. Yeah, the non-proficency penalty and the improvised penalty are both -4, so it's easy to confuse the two as being the same.
The distinction matters for feats like Weapon Focus, which require proficency. So you can't get Weapon Focus (Improvised) just because you can't be proficent.
So if your shovel became a simple/martial/exotic weapon and you lacked proficency, you'd take a non-proficency penalty. If you actually took Catch Off Guard, you could retrain it for a weapon proficency feat.
Regarding existing pathfinder weapon shovels, there is an Exotic Weapon called the Monk's Spade, which is basically a Weaponized Shovel. Not really usuable as an actual shovel.
For the best match of a more normal shovel, Depending on size, I'd probably use the Light Mace, Heavy Mace, or Quarterstaff profile (for quarterstaff, treat one head as being metal for construction purposes and refer to the weapon as a "two-handed shovel" so it doesn't get confused with quarterstaff related feats/spells). Those would all be simple weapons.
But regarding the bonuses and such, yeah, if the shovel ceases to be an improvised weapon and you lack proficency, then you'd be at -4. On the other hand, you can now make it masterwork or magically enhanced, plus you can take weapon focus feats once you get proficency. I suggest a 1-level dip into another class for the proficency.
I've always known that this argument was circular, and I understand that most want to use the trait that adds 2 damage for using an improvised weapon while enhancing that improvised weapon. I think my problem with the circular thing is that I have no problem turning my improvised shovel into a "shovel" weapon (where it's not longer improvised). The problem is that where does that fall under? Is it still a simple weapon? Or is it a martial? What if I'm a class who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency and shovel is not on my list of proficient weapons?
There's no rules on that. Do I lose my (improvised) proficiency because I turned it into a weapon?
Improvised merely means there is no standard proficiency for the weapon in question. It has nothing to do with how the item is constructed.
Indeed, as with the combat scabbard, specific construction does not change an improvised weapons into a standard weapon. You can make the combat scabbard masterwork, use special materials, and enchant it to your heart's content, but it will always have the improvised property.
I've always known that this argument was circular, and I understand that most want to use the trait that adds 2 damage for using an improvised weapon while enhancing that improvised weapon. I think my problem with the circular thing is that I have no problem turning my improvised shovel into a "shovel" weapon (where it's not longer improvised). The problem is that where does that fall under? Is it still a simple weapon? Or is it a martial? What if I'm a class who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency and shovel is not on my list of proficient weapons?
There's no rules on that. Do I lose my (improvised) proficiency because I turned it into a weapon?
There's no "improvised proficency". Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything allow you to ignore the Improvised Penalties, but you don't become proficent. Yeah, the non-proficency penalty and the improvised penalty are both -4, so it's easy to confuse the two as being the same.
The distinction matters for feats like Weapon Focus, which require proficency. So you can't get Weapon Focus (Improvised) just because you can't be proficent.
So if your shovel became a simple/martial/exotic weapon and you lacked proficency, you'd take a non-proficency penalty. If you actually took Catch Off Guard, you could retrain it for a weapon proficency feat.
Regarding existing pathfinder weapon shovels, there is an Exotic Weapon called the Monk's Spade, which is basically a Weaponized Shovel. Not really usuable as an actual shovel.
For the best match of a more normal shovel, Depending on size, I'd probably use the Light Mace, Heavy Mace, or Quarterstaff profile (for quarterstaff, treat one head as being metal for construction purposes and refer to the weapon as a "two-handed shovel" so it doesn't get confused with quarterstaff related feats/spells). Those would all be simple weapons.
But regarding the bonuses and such, yeah, if the shovel ceases to be an improvised weapon and you lack proficency, then you'd be at -4. On the other hand,...
But that's the issue. One day, I can hit a guy upside the head with my shovel with grace. I turn it into a +1 shovel and now I cannot handle the thing nearly as well (-3 compared to my attack previously) because I've got Catch of Guard, but not proficiency in the newly created weapon.
For now, my Gravedigger is just using shovels of different materials for DR, and scrolls and wands to help out for other things.
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Improvised merely means there is no standard proficiency for the weapon in question. It has nothing to do with how the item is constructed.
This one, I do have a quote for:
Page 144 CRB, "Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafter to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be non-proficent with it and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls made with that object."
Improvised weapons are precisely weapons that were not constructed to be weapons.
A lack of standard proficency does not make a weapon improvised. That just makes you Non-proficent. Lacking proficency would still be a -4 penalty, but you could masterwork or magically enhance such a weapon.
I've always known that this argument was circular, and I understand that most want to use the trait that adds 2 damage for using an improvised weapon while enhancing that improvised weapon. I think my problem with the circular thing is that I have no problem turning my improvised shovel into a "shovel" weapon (where it's not longer improvised). The problem is that where does that fall under? Is it still a simple weapon? Or is it a martial? What if I'm a class who doesn't even have simple weapon proficiency and shovel is not on my list of proficient weapons?
There's no rules on that. Do I lose my (improvised) proficiency because I turned it into a weapon?
Improvised merely means there is no standard proficiency for the weapon in question. It has nothing to do with how the item is constructed.
Indeed, as with the combat scabbard, specific construction does not change an improvised weapons into a standard weapon. You can make the combat scabbard masterwork, use special materials, and enchant it to your heart's content, but it will always have the improvised property.
And I agree with that, but a majority of GM's argue that if an improvised weapon becomes a finely crafted weapon, it's no longer "improvised".
An official statement one way or another would at least ease my curiosity as to which one is correct.
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@Link2000: The Gravedigger Investigator Archetype is Proficent in all simple weapons and Scythes. And can use Lanterns and Shovels as if they had the Catch Off Guard feat.
So, using a Heavy Mace or Quarterstaff (wooden headed shovel) to represent a weaponized Shovel is something you can already do with that archetype. What you can't do, is combine Catch Off Guard with your actual weapons.
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@Link2000: The Gravedigger Investigator Archetype is Proficent in all simple weapons and Scythes. And can use Lanterns and Shovels as if they had the Catch Off Guard feat.
So, using a Heavy Mace or Quarterstaff (wooden headed shovel) to represent a weaponized Shovel is something you can already do with that archetype. What you can't do, is combine Catch Off Guard with your actual weapons.
But what I want is my Shovel to be equally efficient in digging holes as well as attacking with. With Catch Off Guard, that is possible, but not with a re-skined Heavy Mace or Quarterstaff.
I'm okay with the game not working in my favor, so I'm not trying to shoot down your suggestions (as they are good), but sadly your suggestions are not suiting the build I have in mind.
Improvised merely means there is no standard proficiency for the weapon in question. It has nothing to do with how the item is constructed.This one, I do have a quote for:
Page 144 CRB, "Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafter to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be non-proficent with it and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls made with that object."
Improvised weapons are precisely weapons that were not constructed to be weapons.
A lack of standard proficency does not make a weapon improvised. That just makes you Non-proficent. Lacking proficency would still be a -4 penalty, but you could masterwork or magically enhance such a weapon.
And I refer you back to the combat scabbard, which is specifically designed for use as a weapon, and remains an improvised weapon.
By your definition, a combat scabbard stops being an improvised the second it is built to be used as a weapon. I.e. always.
I can also refer you to the great club - unless you are arguing branches are grown with the intent of being used as weapons.
The ankus is specifically not designed for usage as a weapon. Are you saying it can never be masterwork or enchanted?
Then we have common herding tools that can be used as a weapon in a pinch. They don't even count as improvised, even though they are not designed for usage as a weapon.
Specific rules exceptions have no implications for the more general rules and their applicability to non-specific situations.
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Specific rules exceptions have no implications for the more general rules and their applicability to non-specific situations.
How many exemptions before it stops being specific and demonstrates a pattern?
Clubs alone have a broad enough definition that you can declare nearly anything to be either a simple or martial weapon.
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And I refer you back to the combat scabbard, with is specifically designed for use as a weapon, and remains an improvised weapon.
By your definition, a combat scabbard stops being an improvised the second it is built to be used as a weapon. I.e. always.
Let's see. D20pfsrd says this is in Adventurer's Armory. <Get's out the book.>
The Combat Scabbard is "Adventuring Gear" and has no weapon profile or notes regarding improvised use.
The Sharpened Combat Scabbard does have a weapon profile and is listed under "weapons". The Improvised trait in the link is not found in it's profile. According to the book, the Sharpened Combat Scabbard is a 1-handed Martial weapon that also functions as a Combat Scabbard.
Once again, D20pfsrd has not listed the source correctly (or they are wrong). They may still be referencing actual rules, but they are not found in the source mentioned. I love the site as a quick reference, but they are not a reliable rules source.
Specific rules exceptions have no implications for the more general rules and their applicability to non-specific situations.How many exemptions before it stops being specific and demonstrates a pattern?
Clubs alone have a broad enough definition that you can declare nearly anything to be either a simple or martial weapon.
The general rules will stand regardless of the number of specific rules overriding them. Why would you think differently?
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Specific rules exceptions have no implications for the more general rules and their applicability to non-specific situations.How many exemptions before it stops being specific and demonstrates a pattern?
Clubs alone have a broad enough definition that you can declare nearly anything to be either a simple or martial weapon.
"How many exemptions before it stops being specific and demonstrates a pattern?" ...
how about 20%? say 1 in 5?
or heck, 10%? that would be one in 10.
Not sure we even have one yet though... not for Improvised Weapons actually being counted as Weapons.
not sure what it would mean even if we HAD "a pattern"... what would it mean then? That some weapons don't fit the "standard definition of a weapon"?
Not sure we even have one yet though... not for Improvised Weapons actually being counted as Weapons.
And I refer you back to the combat scabbard, which is specifically designed for use as a weapon, and remains an improvised weapon.By your definition, a combat scabbard stops being an improvised the second it is built to be used as a weapon. I.e. always.
I can also refer you to the great club - unless you are arguing branches are grown with the intent of being used as weapons.
The ankus is specifically not designed for usage as a weapon. Are you saying it can never be masterwork or enchanted?
Then we have common herding tools that can be used as a weapon in a pinch. They don't even count as improvised, even though they are not designed for usage as a weapon.
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I can also refer you to the great club - unless you are arguing branches are grown with the intent of being used as weapons.
The ankus is specifically not designed for usage as a weapon. Are you saying it can never be masterwork or enchanted?
Then we have common herding tools that can be used as a weapon in a pinch. They don't even count as improvised, even though they are not designed for usage as a weapon.
Regarding the Greatclub, it doesn't say that "every tree branch" is considered a Greatclub. Yeah, a Greatclub could be essentially a tree branch, but not all tree branches are suitable Greatclubs. Furthermore, the DC 12 craft check required would likely include chopping it off the tree, taking off the leaves, removing annoying smaller branches, and maybe making a better grip. Craft checks can be attempted untrained (at least to make weapons) and you could certainly take 20 on making a greatclub out of a tree branch. OR you could just have an improvised weapon.
As for the Ankus and the Crook, those are both actual Weapons, not improvised. Regarding using them as a weapon in a pinch, they just mean that they are lacking weapons, so you'd only use them as weapons if you didn't have better weapons. I agree, they should have worded the description better.
And I refer you back to the combat scabbard, with is specifically designed for use as a weapon, and remains an improvised weapon.
By your definition, a combat scabbard stops being an improvised the second it is built to be used as a weapon. I.e. always.
Let's see. D20pfsrd says this is in Adventurer's Armory. <Get's out the book.>
The Combat Scabbard is "Adventuring Gear" and has no weapon profile or notes regarding improvised use.
The Sharpened Combat Scabbard does have a weapon profile and is listed under "weapons". The Improvised trait in the link is not found in it's profile. According to the book, the Sharpened Combat Scabbard is a 1-handed Martial weapon that also functions as a Combat Scabbard.
Once again, D20pfsrd has not listed the source correctly (or they are wrong). They may still be referencing actual rules, but they are not found in the source mentioned. I love the site as a quick reference, but they are not a reliable rules source.
Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 6 (Amazon)
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special improvised, see text
Description
This scabbard is an improvised weapon designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat (see page 22) for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.
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What can be classified as an improvised weapon?
By definition, an improvised weapon is either:
A) An object wielded as a weapon when it is not constructed or designed to be a weapon. As an alternate definition, an improvised weapon is any object wielded as a weapon despite not being listed as a weapon under Equipment. A chair is a good example.
B) A standard weapon wielded in an improvised fashion or wielded in a way it was not intended to be wielded. Using the haft of a longspear is an example because the statistics assume you're attacking with the business end.
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for all purposes?
Yes, but there's significant differences between a standard weapon and an improvised weapon. You can never be proficient in improvised weapons (Catch-Off Guard only negates penalties), and only standard weapons can be of masterwork quality. Masterwork improvised weapons do not exist because only an object constructed to be used as a weapon can be crafted as a masterwork weapon.
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for the purposes of spells which must target an individual weapon such as Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon?
Yes. Generally, any effect that could target a non-masterwork can also target an improvised weapon. However, for Type B improvised weapons, you must choose whether you want to enhance the object as a standard weapon or as an improvised weapon. If you cast magic weapon on a longspear, you must choose whether it becomes +1 longspear or a +1 improvised weapon. This is because a magical weapon's enhancements do not carry over when wielded as an improvised weapon, and vice versa.
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for class abilities which require a weapon such as Paladin's bond or Magus' spellstrike ability?
See above. Though, spellstrike doesn't care what type of weapon you use.
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of enchanting them as weapons?
You cannot use magic item creation to magically enhance an improvised weapon because magic weapon creation requires a masterwork weapon. Improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons.
Do improvised weapons count as weapons for purposes of Feats which require a weapon to use such as Arcane Strike?
Yes, but as pointed out above, you can never have proficiency in improvised weapons. This means you cannot take Weapon Focus or use feats that require you to wield weapons you have proficiency in or weapons that belong in a weapon group.
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Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 6 (Amazon)
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special improvised, see text
Description
This scabbard is an improvised weapon designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat (see page 22) for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon.
So, you should buy a copy of the book. I have a physical copy in front of me, that is not an accurate quote based on that listed source.
I suppose there could be an Eratta or FAQ on this, where they updated it to that, but my copy doesn't say this. I think you are citing Archives of Nethys, which doesn't always update their sources when a newer version of an item appear (but they do update the description very accurately), so this Combat Scabbard could be in Ultimate Equipment, or perhaps in some FAQ/Eratta.
There are two entries in the Adventurer's Armory.
Under Adventuring Gear, we have the Combat Scabbard. The description reads as follows:
"This scabbard is designed to allow you to remove it from your belt as a swift action when drawing the weapon it contains. Taking the Equipment Trick feat (see page 22) for a scabbard gives you additional combat options for using a scabbard. For the purpose of fighter weapon groups, a scabbard for a heavy blade is considered a hammer, and a scabbard for a light blade is considered a close weapon."
It has no listed profile or weight or cost. Just totally missing any mention of how one acquires a combat scabbard in the Adventurer's Armory.
Under Weapons, we have the Combat Scabbard, Sharpened. It does have a specific weapon profile which does not include mention of it being Improvised. For it's description, it reads:
"This Combat Scabbard is has a sharp blade on the outer edge, allowing you to use it as a weapon."
So despite the name, the scabbard isn't merely sharpened, they've actually mounted a blade on the outer edge of their scabbard.
I don't know if this was mentioned yet. But there is already an improvised magic weapon in the game.
It's called a Fighting Tankard.
Just my 2cp.
IMO make an amulet of the mighty fist but change it so it only affects improvised weapons. Probably make it a little cheaper too.
Did I stop all discussion in this tread?
Sorry for being a buzz killer.
Did I stop all discussion in this tread?
Sorry for being a buzz killer.
An exception to the rule mayhap?
Is a masterwork fork a weapon or a piece of art?
Is our gnome companion a one or two handed weapon?
Is the little Jimmy a thrown weapon?
Also why is a tankard a weapon but not a spoon? I know of a certain "assassin" that will be veary displeased.
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I don't know if this was mentioned yet. But there is already an improvised magic weapon in the game.
It's called a Fighting Tankard.
Just my 2cp.
Except it says it isn't an improvised weapon, it's a +1 light hammer.
Which goes back to the idea that if you want to "reskin" a weapon as some mundane object, you can, and then you can magically enhance that. But you can't just an improvised weapon that is magically enhanced.
Price 10,301 gp; Slot none; CL 10th; Weight 2 lbs.; Aura moderate conjuration
DESCRIPTION
This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer.
Worshipers of a god of drinking or luck are automatically proficient with it. The interior of the tankard contains six identical extradimensional spaces. Each space can hold 1 dose of a different potable liquid of up to 1/2 cubic foot in volume (including potions, but not poisons). Liquid never sloshes out of the these spaces accidentally (though it often appears ready to do so), and when the wielder drinks from the tankard, it provides the drink from the desired extradimensional pocket (or a random pocket, if the wielder has no preference).
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 5,301 gp; Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item; Spells secret chest
It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.
Note that the words "Improvised Weapon" do not appear in the rules for a Fighting Tankard.
True. It does not say "Improvised Weapon".
It says "steel tankard". An item that is not normally a weapon.
Ah, but THIS ONE is, because it was made that way.
It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.
Feels more like "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer for all the mechanical purposes that affect manufactured weapons".
Feats, item conditions, weapon enchantments, etc...
Ah, but THIS ONE is, because it was made that way.
Yes, from a steel tankard.
Which is what again? A metal mug I think.
If I used a non-magic steel tankard. What kind of weapon would it be?
I can't seem to find it in the weapon table anywhere.
A big clue is how not only is it a light hammer, you can gain proficiency in it. A rare event for an improvised weapon to have proficiency in light hammers tobweild it.
The example, if anything, proves the opposite of improvised becoming weapons.
The description of Fighting Tankard says "Worshipers of a god of drinking or luck are automatically proficient with it." I believe this means proficient with just Fighting Tankard.
You believe that but that doesnt make it correct. Not all classes get light hammer. Worship allows this holy symbol to give profiency. But you can't gain that on improvised. At best there's a feat saying you can take the penalties away but it doesn't grant proficiency. For a reason.
This is a light hammer. Not an improvised weapon. Just as a scythe is improvised unless you're using one made as a weapon.
I am sensing some hostility here. I am not attacking anyone. I am merely talking. I am not saying anyone is correct or not.
I am just restating what the description of Fighting Tankard says and what it could mean.
Didn't know restating a description and discussing what it could mean, was offensive in some way.
Let's discuss the topic, not argue.
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I had asked Mark about that a bit ago, here was his response (Someone may have stated this already):
TrinitysEnd wrote:
I've seen a lot of posts and everything with people talking about this, but I've never found a definitive answer. Just people's interpretations of the rule.
But, can you Masterwork an Improvised Weapon? Does a Mithral or Adamantine Improvised weapon receive a +1 to hit? Furthermore, can you enchant an Improvised Weapon (Without using special abilities like Sohei and the likes)?Mark Seifter wrote:
It seems like you can't masterwork or enhance them in those ways. If you built, say a ladle, out of adamantine, it wouldn't be crafted as an adamantine weapon, but instead by weight as an "other item" that you then use as an improvised weapon, so in that regard it probably wouldn't get other attributes specific to adamantine weapons.