All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
The way I'm reading this, the sneak attack bonus from a sneak attack (touch, ranged touch, surprise) spell would also be multiplied.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target... Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
It's described as being extra damage, not bonus damage, and isn't multiplied on criticals, so I suspect RAI is that it wouldn't be multiplied on empowerment either.
One word makes all the difference. Thanks for clearing this up.
Agreed with Matthew Downie.
Sneak attack damage is combined with the source damage. It is not a separate source of damage. The critical rules don't apply. The sneak attack damage should also be empowered.
Time for another FAQ, but later. I don't like starting them on my phone.
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No need for a FAQ. Sneak Attack is extra Damage that's added on after the fact, not part of the Spell Damage. You would not get automatic Max Sneak Attack Damage on a Maximized Spell. Empower is no different.
So, for instance a 2d6 Shocking Grasp and a 1d6 Sneak Attack that with their powers combined makes an Empowered Shocking Grasp Sneak Attack would look like
2d6 x 1.5, +1d6 (4-18 damage)
and not
3d6 x1.5 (4-27 damage)
I mean, even from a common sense point of view, Sneak Attack shouldn't be maximized. A maximized spell is one that is channeling a lot of energy; sneak attack damage comes from hitting your opponent in the kidneys. A more powerful spell won't make you hit them more in the kidneys, and the extra damage from a powerful spell is already factored into Maximized Spell.
@Daedalus the Dungeon Builder
I guess that really depends on how strong your kidneys are and maybe more importantly, how strong or resistant the underlying/neighboring tissue is.
Btw, we're still talking about empowered spells, right?
On a side note, what's the argument to not increase the damge dice? So a 10d6 should really be increased to a 15d9...
Empower spell empowers spells. Sneak attack damage is not part of the spell. It's extra damage from a "well placed" attack.
Empower spell (like maximize) would affect the spell damage, but sneak attack is not part of the spell damage. It is extra damage, that is part of the same attack (for the purposes of DR or energy resistance) but not part of the spell.
No need for a FAQ. Sneak Attack is extra Damage that's added on after the fact, not part of the Spell Damage. You would not get automatic Max Sneak Attack Damage on a Maximized Spell. Empower is no different.
So, for instance a 2d6 Shocking Grasp and a 1d6 Sneak Attack that with their powers combined makes an Empowered Shocking Grasp Sneak Attack would look like
2d6 x 1.5, +1d6 (4-18 damage)
and not
3d6 x1.5 (4-27 damage)
If the sneak attack damage is not part of the spell damage then why do you get to save for half of the sneak attack damage in this FAQ? If it is separate damage it should be 100% separate right?
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Note that exception calls out weapon damage not spell damage.There's an FAQ clarifying that spells with attack rolls are still affected by rules referring to weapon damage.
If the sneak attack damage is not part of the spell damage then why do you get to save for half of the sneak attack damage in this FAQ?If the sneak attack doesn't come from the surprise spells ability, I'm not sure you do. I don't see any reason to believe, for instance, that making a Will save against an inflict light wounds spell would halve any sneak attack damage it delivers.
That FAQ you mentioned is not for all spells. It is for the ones which behave like weapons, and your other quote is referring to damage from weapons not all damage. It is a subsection of the damage section which says.
"Damage<------This is referring to weapon damage, and is the main heading.
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal."
It goes on to address things such as weilding two-handed weapons and off-hand weapons.
Not all spells that do damage are weapons.
As for your inflict light wounds comment I wrote what I did because someone said it(sneak attack) was completely separate damage.
I am sure that if I hit someone with inflict light wounds, and they are immune to negative energy they would also ignore the sneak attack damage because it is part of the spell damage and does the same type of damage.
Otherwise only the spell energy would be stopped, and the sneak attack damage would get through.
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To add to Wraitstrike argument, if you use a spell that don't dealt hp of damage, but instead deal other kind of damage (as an example, Enervation), you don't add the sneak attack damage, neither as "other" damage dealt by the spell, nor as hp of damage. So the sneak attack isn't something tackled to the spell but separated by it.
As for your inflict light wounds comment I wrote what I did because someone said it(sneak attack) was completely separate damage.
I am sure that if I hit someone with inflict light wounds, and they are immune to negative energy they would also ignore the sneak attack damage because it is part of the spell damage and does the same type of damage.
Otherwise only the spell energy would be stopped, and the sneak attack damage would get through.
Yes sneak attack deals the same kind of damage as the the attack that delivered it. And yes, if you are immune to negative energy then inflict light wounds will be resisted and also the sneak attack damage. But that's because the sneak attack damage is also negative energy, which the target is immune to in this case so it wouldn't get through no matter what.
In the case of DR or energy resistance we're told to total up the damage for the purposes of applying DR and ER.
That doesn't make Sneak Attack part of the spell though.
Let me ask you this, if you had a barbarian rogue with furious finish which was using vital strike and furious finish would you think sneak attack damage would also be maximized in this case? I agree the wording of the abilities is different, but this is the most analogous case I can think of. Of course, in this case I think it's quite clear it wouldn't be multiplied.
Ultimately the question comes down to:
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Is sneak attack part of the spell?
I say no, we have no evidence for this.
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I am under the impression that Metamagic only applies to the base spell effect itself, as shown by the traditional maximized + empowered combination (an empowered maximized fireball does 60 + ((10d6)/2) dmg rather than a flat 90).
Using this (very questionable) guideline, it seems like sneak attack damage should not be modified by metamagic feats.
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That FAQ you mentioned is not for all spells. It is for the ones which behave like weapons, and your other quote is referring to damage from weapons not all damage. It is a subsection of the damage section which says.
"Damage<------This is referring to weapon damage, and is the main heading.
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal."It goes on to address things such as weilding two-handed weapons and off-hand weapons.
Not all spells that do damage are weapons.
The FAQ states quite specifically which spells it's referring to.
When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball.Rules that effect "weapon damage" apply to any spells that deal damage after a successful attack roll, only to hit point damage, and only once for a set of simultaneous attacks. Huh, interesting, that's exactly how sneak attack works.
You still have not made a tie to empower. What you have is possible evidence just like I have possible evidence. You can be snarky all you want, but you have not made anything with irrefutable proof. My statement that damage as you listed is subsection of weapon damage is part of that. I do agree that it is possible that sneak attack damage may not apply to the feat, but Paizo's ruling are not always consistent with what is written, even if that section would apply to empower.
Their take 10 ruling which is speaking to the player, but their FAQ ruling which says the GM decides for purposes of pacing is an example of that.
Any further replies will be made here.
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If the sneak attack damage is not part of the spell damage then why do you get to save for half of the sneak attack damage in this FAQ? If it is separate damage it should be 100% separate right?
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
It's difficult to say, as even by that FAQ's response, Fireball is not a valid choice for Surprise Spell, (nor is Magic Missile!), even though it's specifically mentioned in the FAQ as an example.
It makes it difficult to understand what they where trying to say here, though. I think what they where saying, very poorly, was that if a Fireball was used for Surprise Strike, it would only allow you to Sneak Attack 1 target within the area. Everyone affected by the Fireball still gets a Save for Half, including that one that is also taking Sneak Attack Damage, (not that they get to reduce that extra Sneak Attack Damage by making the Save), except through Evasion.
It could be saying a more literal reading, which is to say that a Saving Throw allows you to reduce the Sneak Attack Damage as well, and that will also have some very interesting side effects with how things like normal Sneak Attacks with Spells or Spell Strike will work I doubt many people are going to like.
That seems a fairly clear FAQ to me. Surprise Spells allows you to add sneak damage dice to spells that deal damage when those spells strike flat-footed foes (even if those spells do not target AC). In the case of a fireball, you add the sneak damage to the fireball damage, then all targets take that amount of damage, or half that amount if they pass their reflex save.
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If the sneak attack damage is not part of the spell damage then why do you get to save for half of the sneak attack damage in this FAQ? If it is separate damage it should be 100% separate right?
How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
It's difficult to say, as even by that FAQ's response, Fireball is not a valid choice for Surprise Spell, (nor is Magic Missile!), even though it's specifically mentioned in the FAQ as an example.
It makes it difficult to understand what they where trying to say here, though. I think what they where saying, very poorly, was that if a Fireball was used for Surprise Strike, it would only allow you to Sneak Attack 1 target within the area. Everyone affected by the Fireball still gets a Save for Half, including that one that is also taking Sneak Attack Damage, (not that they get to reduce that extra Sneak Attack Damage by making the Save), except through Evasion.
It could be saying a more literal reading, which is to say that a Saving Throw allows you to reduce the Sneak Attack Damage as well, and that will also have some very interesting side effects with how things like normal Sneak Attacks with Spells or Spell Strike will work I doubt many people are going to like.
My response was due to someone saying sneak attack is not part of the spell.
I am saying that if sneak attack is not part of the spell the reflex save should only be made against the base damage for the spell, and the full sneak attack damage should apply.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You still have not made a tie to empower.You don't think a rule saying what happens when "you multiply damage by some factor" has a tie to empower?
In the case of a fireball, you add the sneak damage to the fireball damage, then all targets take that amount of damage, or half that amount if they pass their reflex save.Fireball does not have any targets.
It could be tied to it, but I dont see it as absolute proof.
As for your second quote of me that is directly from the FAQ. I was only copying and pasting.
By "targets" I think they(Paizo) were referring to those who were placed in the area of the fireball. They were not referring to targets in the same manner that weapon targets someone nor targets in the manner that magic missile targets someone.
I for one believe that the sneak attack damage WOULD be empowered right along with the rest of it.
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From the discussion, and my understanding of the rules and past interactions I have had with this, here is what I believe.
Spells that use an attack, or a succession of attacks, will add the sneak dice after the meta-magic feats are applied, usually on the first attack when there is more than one attack.
Area effect spells would add the damage on to the effect, as per the faq mentioned above. I still think that the Meta-magic effects are applied first, then the sneak attack damage added in after, but the effects can be avoided/halved as normal for all the damage involved.
Also, those that do not take Precision damage would not be effected by the sneak attack damage. (Elementals, Oozes, ect)
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I think I'll go with the notion, that if it can be saved for half damage, then it can be empowered for 1.5 damage.