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So, let's use "Emergency Force Sphere" which says...
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you
So, does this extend five feet from the caster's square in all directions? or does it make a 10x10 square centered on one of the caster's corners? My instinct tells me it radiates five feet in every direction from the caster's square.
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Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?
No, when such a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.
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**EDIT** Too many people taking dips in Ninja these days...
That FAQ only applies to large or larger creatures, for a medium or smaller creature, you'd pick one your corner intersections and measure from there.
If the Big Creatures FAQ says that for spells that say the effect is centered on you, and says that a creature taking up more than one square treats the entirety of its square as the origin, then a Medium-sized creature would only affect the other 8 adjacent squares (AKA 5 feet radiated from the the creature who cast the spell), because for effects "centered on you," your entire space is considered the origin of the spell.
That's what the FAQ says, which trumps anything Mark would have to say on the matter.
It says "when such a creature" (e.g., large or larger) uses an emanation, treat their entire body as the source. The FAQ doesn't say anything that applies to medium creatures.
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It says "when such a creature" (e.g., large or larger) uses an emanation, treat their entire body as the source. The FAQ doesn't say anything that applies to medium creatures.
Well, that's just silly.
Medium creature picks a corner, but a Large or bigger creature gets his entire square?
That's a bunch of crap.
Effect 5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you'You' take up a 5' square. 'Centered on you' means centered on that 5' square.
5' radius means 10' diameter, not 15' diameter. Official RAI is:
5 ft emanations for Medium creatures are absolutely supposed to apply to only those other 3 squares... Spells like emergency force sphere are already strong enough.
I remember this now. The FAQ addressed a dragon casting a 10 ft emanation spell that wouldn't exceed their body. So the FAQ is only large or larger and only to fix that awkwardness. So medium is on a grid.
It only fixed awkwardness on one side of the scale.
Now it's broken for medium or smaller creatures.
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Excerpts from the PRD:
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres
By RAW, medium and smaller pick a corner of their square for CENTERED ON YOU bursts of emanations. I would prefer the square be the source (vs intersection) but this the rules forum so RAW it is
Excerpts from the PRD:
By RAW, medium and smaller pick a corner of their square for CENTERED ON YOU bursts of emanations. I would prefer the square be the source (vs intersection) but this the rules forum so RAW it isArea: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres
If we're playing by those shenanigans, then the Dead Condition doesn't do anything, I can throw an infinite number of Throwing Shields (or a single Throwing Shield an infinite number of times), and Shield Slam can't be turned off.
RAW is only worthwhile when it's not counter-intuitive. It certainly is in this case.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In short, why not have the rules work consistently instead of trying to carve out exceptions. What's the point in that?
For a decade we didn't have an exception. Emanations worked the same on tiny to colossus creatures. It was pointed out this worked strangely on large and larger, so we got a FAQ fixing it for large and larger only.
I'd forgotten that this was a deviation from RAW for those cases. But the FAQ is a deviation, not a power up fro Medium and smaller.
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In short, why not have the rules work consistently instead of trying to carve out exceptions. What's the point in that?For a decade we didn't have an exception. Emanations worked the same on tiny to colossus creatures. It was pointed out this worked strangely on large and larger, so we got a FAQ fixing it for large and larger only.
I'd forgotten that this was a deviation from RAW for those cases. But the FAQ is a deviation, not a power up fro Medium and smaller.
It's actually a nerf for Medium and smaller creatures, because they don't get adequate spell emanations compared to Large and larger creatures.
If a Large+ Creature casts Emergency Force Sphere, every single square adjacent to their space (I believe it's 12 total) is covered.
If a Medium- Creature casts Emergency Force Sphere, only 3 squares adjacent to their space is covered (out of the 8 total).
Mathematically speaking, that Large+ Creature is getting upwards of FOUR TIMES the size of its spell effect compared to a Medium- Creature.
Which is a bunch of bulls#!^. A creature's size shouldn't inflate the relative area of effect of a centered spell if they're big enough, and then for whatever reason deflate if they're small enough. It creates a logical fallacy that makes no sense.
I mean, the spell mentioned in question, emergency force sphere, is unusable for medium or smaller creatures unless you use the FAQ. If you don't, it fails to take effect in all useful cases. The spell mimics wall of force, which cant come into effect if a creature occupies one of the target squares. If you don't use the FAQ and use the grid targeting, the caster by definition occupies one of the border squares and the spell fails. This goes along with the craziness that all medium or smaller creatures would be subject to their own auras.
It'd still fail anyway because one of the corners you pick on your square still affects you, since a 5 foot radius is simply the size of a Large creature.
And you're in one of those 4 squares.
And you'd have to occupy the intersection in order to be considered within the spell effect, which is physically impossible.
Congratulations, Emergency Force Sphere is now only usable when affected by Enlarge Person, or as a GM-Ex-Machina tool.
This is why we cannot have nice things...
The rules often assume that creatures are Medium or Small. In the case of a handful of spells or effects with areas that feature a “radius emanation centered on you” such as antimagic field, aura of doom, and zone of silence, as well as some of the spells presented in this section, this can result in an area that is effectively useless when coming from a Large or larger caster. As an optional rule, when a creature casts an emanation or burst spell with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edge of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a fire giant would extend 10 feet beyond his space (effectively increasing the emanation’s radius by 5 feet).
It's form an Adventure Path, and it is siad to be an optional rule, but it's clear and official, and it includes Medium creatures.
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Seems like the specific of "centered on you" trumps the general of grid intersection. Otherwise, "you" must also be centered on the grid intersection too, since the spell is centered on you.
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I find it silly and contradictory that your 5' step will take you to any adjacent square, but your 5' spell radius won't.
Why does life have to be so difficult? If an emanation/spread spell that's centered on you has a radius of X feet, and you can reach the target square using X feet of movement--something for which there are very clear rules that work--then the target square should be affected. Making special rules for counting distance in different ways is how we get problems.
I have no insight into the RAW vs. RAI debate here except to say "it didn't have to be like this".
Sounds like we need a another FAQ! ;)Or just update that one to say medium and smaller use grid like normal.
So Spells like Emergency Force Sphere only ever work on Large or larger creatures now, gotcha.
Oh, and I can ready a 5-foot and spellcast from an Anti-Magic Field, while benefitting from its defenses.
Point is, using the Grid for spells with personal emanations is a bad rule that shouldn't be enforced. In fact, it's because of that very same concept that the FAQ was created.
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Sounds like we need a another FAQ! ;)Or just update that one to say medium and smaller use grid like normal.So Spells like Emergency Force Sphere only ever work on Large or larger creatures now, gotcha.
Oh, and I can ready a 5-foot and spellcast from an Anti-Magic Field, while benefitting from its defenses.
Point is, using the Grid for spells with personal emanations is a bad rule that shouldn't be enforced. In fact, it's because of that very same concept that the FAQ was created.
EFS is not an emanation or burst. It is an area spell with pre-defined area.
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I'm not sure why some people are saying EFS won't for medium (or smaller creatures).
You pick an intersection. You count 5' out from that intersection. You draw the wall on that outside edge. The 4 squares inside (you + 3 other medium creatures) are protected. None of you are violating this clause from Wall of Force:
The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
It one of your friends, not you, was Large-sized and next to you when you cast EFS, EFS would fail because the wall would passing through the middle of your big buddy.
Only a Wall of Ice has "adjacent creature" language.
A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm not sure why some people are saying EFS won't for medium (or smaller creatures).
I take from context, that they'd prefer there to be no difference in enforcement of the rules depending on the size of the caster. So they are trying to demonstrate how the medium way has "flaws". I'm guessing in hopes of them changing the way the FAQ is written to include medium.
If I'm wrong in my understanding of the motives, please correct me.
I'm not sure why some people are saying EFS won't for medium (or smaller creatures).
You pick an intersection. You count 5' out from that intersection. You draw the wall on that outside edge. The 4 squares inside (you + 3 other medium creatures) are protected. None of you are violating this clause from Wall of Force:
The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.It one of your friends, not you, was Large-sized and next to you when you cast EFS, EFS would fail because the wall would passing through the middle of your big buddy.
Only a Wall of Ice has "adjacent creature" language.
A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails.
It's a logical fallacy, because the effect we're talking about is a hemisphere. Which means that it extends 5 feet tall from the grid intersection (because it's a 5 foot radius hemisphere, using the grid intersection as the point of origin, right?) and then curves down to 0 feet at the end of the 2x2 square.
Logically speaking, no Medium-sized creature (that are 5 feet or taller, at best,) can practically use Emergency Force Sphere because the effect would basically cut them in half, or they'd be stuck in between the effect and the space in which they inhabit, which means the spell screws the caster instead of protecting them (since any creatures attacking that caster don't suffer any penalties or have to deal with the Emergency Force Sphere defenses in order to reach said caster). In fact, that caster is most likely immobile and helpless, since they cannot physically move from that square, and their ability to defend themselves is reduced significantly, because they're rooted due to the effects of the Emergency Force Sphere.
Or they're shunted out of the effect, in which case the spell will never do what the description says it's intended for; either way, you're left with a spell that tries to do what it says it does, but actually doesn't. Kind of like the Bodyguard feat, except worse.
The fact that the emanation changes for Large+ creatures, but Medium- creatures have inconsistencies across numerous personal emanation spells is just plain silly, and all the FAQ did was inverse the spectrum of that scale (instead of AMF being practically useless for Large+ sized creatures, now AMF and other similarly-placed spells are largely inconsistent for Medium- sized creatures).
I think a comparison with illuminations created by items is in place:
Candle: A candle dimly illuminates a small area, increasing the light level in a 5-foot radius by one step (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light).
If a character carries a candle, how many squares are illuminated?
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Calth, I looked into this earlier when quoting those rules, but I couldn't find any specific rules re: wall placement (either occupies square or exists on edge). I've always seen them drawn on the edge of a square and that would match the area templates. Do you have any listing for how walls are placed? (It could be somewhere I missed)
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It's a logical fallacy, because the effect we're talking about is a hemisphere. Which means that it extends 5 feet tall from the grid intersection (because it's a 5 foot radius hemisphere, using the grid intersection as the point of origin, right?) and then curves down to 0 feet at the end of the 2x2 square.
No, because in a game with square grids, there really are no curves or perfect hemispheres. The edges are squared off, not rounded off like we would like it to be.
The fluff might call for a 5ft radius hemisphere, but the game mechanics only allow for a cube 10ft wide x 10ft long x 5ft high if the intersection point selected is at the caster's feet (meaning it is at one of the bottom vertices of the caster's 5ft cube) or 10ft wide x 10ft long x 10ft high if the intersection point selected is at the caster's head (meaning it is at one of the top vertices of the caster's 5ft cube). I know we always use the game language of square, but it is better to think in terms of cube.
We usually look at the rules in a 2D manner as that is how they are most often presented, but spell effects, height considerations, and other game mechanics really exist in a 3D world. Even though the rules do not always say this specifically, it has to be included or else the game begins to really break down quickly.
It's a logical fallacy, because the effect we're talking about is a hemisphere. Which means that it extends 5 feet tall from the grid intersection (because it's a 5 foot radius hemisphere, using the grid intersection as the point of origin, right?) and then curves down to 0 feet at the end of the 2x2 square.No, because in a game with square grids, there really are no curves or perfect hemispheres. The edges are squared off, not rounded off like we would like it to be.
The fluff might call for a 5ft radius hemisphere, but the game mechanics only allow for a cube 10ft wide x 10ft long x 5ft high if the intersection point selected is at the caster's feet (meaning it is at one of the bottom vertices of the caster's 5ft cube) or 10ft wide x 10ft long x 10ft high if the intersection point selected is at the caster's head (meaning it is at one of the top vertices of the caster's 5ft cube). I know we always use the game language of square, but it is better to think in terms of cube.
We usually look at the rules in a 2D manner as that is how they are most often presented, but spell effects, height considerations, and other game mechanics really exist in a 3D world. Even though the rules do not always say this specifically, it has to be included or else the game begins to really break down quickly.
Even with square grids, you'll have to bend 45 degrees to symbolize that it's a hemisphere (which has curves, similar to a winding hallway published in several Paizo APs), which means you have to be 2.5 feet or smaller to fit comfortably within that Emergency Force Sphere.
Otherwise, you're either shunted out of it, or you're caught in the middle of it and you're basically paralyzed/helpless, because you're immobile.
Either way, all you're doing is proving that regardless of how the area is interpreted from the rules, it's still stupid, illogical, and fallacious.
Everything is stated within the parameters of game mechanics and those say a small or medium creature fits in a 5ft square which is also assumed to be a 5ft cube due to the 3rd dimension. A 6ft 9in tall half-orc fits in this 5ft cube as does a 3ft 2in gnome.
A 5ft radius hemisphere will fit in four small or medium creatures or one large creature. There are no game mechanics that take into account the curvature of the hemisphere at the edges.
If you want ultra-realism, Pathfinder is not the game for you.
I know many will disagree with me, but this is the rules forum and the rules just do not count for curves in hemispheres or tall half-orcs, etc.