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Everything is stated within the parameters of game mechanics and those say a small or medium creature fits in a 5ft square which is also assumed to be a 5ft cube due to the 3rd dimension. A 6ft 9in tall half-orc fits in this 5ft cube as does a 3ft 2in gnome.
A 5ft radius hemisphere will fit in four small or medium creatures or one large creature. There are no game mechanics that take into account the curvature of the hemisphere at the edges.
If you want ultra-realism, Pathfinder is not the game for you.
I know many will disagree with me, but this is the rules forum and the rules just do not count for curves in hemispheres or tall half-orcs, etc.
Actually, the RAW doesn't really mention anything about the third dimension. So, at best you're offering conjecture that isn't backed up by the real-world math, and technically everybody is houseruling how the game's 3D rules interact. It's actually very ironic, and it's a glaring rules issue that's been present for multiple editions of this game. The fact that no developers can wrap their minds around how to calculate the 3D rules of the game, and yet constantly create rules that supplement said 3D rules (such as flight, burrowing, etc.), should bring you to that very same conclusion.
It's not about ultra-realism, it's about consistency. It's always been about consistency, because the FAQ has created a case in which you're having two different versions of what constitutes being centered on a creature. And it's bulls#!^.
The FAQ was designed to make Large+ creatures not get screwed by spells with radii smaller than their own size; being obtuse and creating a situation where a Medium- creature suffers a similar issue is clearly not the correct answer here.
I was not talking about the large creature in a 5ft radius hemisphere in regards to the spell in question, I was just speaking in general terms that a large creature should fit into a 4 square area provided it is 10ft tall. If it were only 5ft tall they would not fit within the hemisphere. Sorry, that was not clear st all.
I was not talking about the large creature in a 5ft radius hemisphere in regards to the spell in question, I was just speaking in general terms that a large creature should fit into a 4 square area provided it is 10ft tall. If it were only 5ft tall they would not fit within the hemisphere. Sorry, that was not clear st all.
Except, because it's a Large sized creature, the Hemisphere is as tall as the creature is.
But Medium- sized creatures? They get stuck in the effect. Because Magic is stupid as hell when you least expect it to be.
I don't think the mechanic is broken or nonfunctional like some people are suggesting, but for the most part I think Darksol has nailed it.
It's really dumb and completely unintuitive that the spell can function in two entirely different ways depending on what your size is when you cast it.
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How do we know there are unintended consequences?
Especially considering the same group that wrote the FAQ are aware it works different for medium?
Not to mention the rules are written from the small or medium PC perspective, so not covering large or larger in the rules isn't a mistake as much as "not needed" as the GM will handle.
Plus it does cover 4. 3 and the PC square casting it.
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There is no valid corner you can choose that doesn't involve you being inside. It doesn't have a range so you must choose one of the grid points bordering on you.
Range 5 ft.
That means the valid corners include all the corners of each adjacent square. If "centered on you" is now fluff instead of crunch. As the effect has a radius of 5 feet, then casting the center 5 feet away from you causes you to not be inside of the effect.o = valid corner, 5 feet from caster
...= spacer
---=empty space
o....o....o....o
.----.----.----.
o....o....o....o
.----.cast.----.
.----.----.----.
o....o....o....o
.----.----.----.
o....o....o....o
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What if emergency force sphere is casted by a Large creature? Huge creature? Would that creature have to select one of its intersecting squares protecting only 2-3 additional squares (assuming that the Large/Huge caster is also protected by the sphere since it occupies 1-2 squares of the spell effect) or does it "emanate" out 5' protecting all adjacent squares (12 sqaures + caster for Large creature and 16 squares + caster for Huge creature)?
What if emergency force sphere is casted by a Large creature? Huge creature? Would that creature have to select one of its intersecting squares protecting only 2-3 additional squares (assuming that the Large/Huge caster is also protected by the sphere since it occupies 1-2 squares of the spell effect) or does it "emanate" out 5' protecting all adjacent squares (12 sqaures + caster for Large creature and 16 squares + caster for Huge creature)?
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?
No, when such a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.
What if emergency force sphere is casted by a Large creature? Huge creature? Would that creature have to select one of its intersecting squares protecting only 2-3 additional squares (assuming that the Large/Huge caster is also protected by the sphere since it occupies 1-2 squares of the spell effect) or does it "emanate" out 5' protecting all adjacent squares (12 sqaures + caster for Large creature and 16 squares + caster for Huge creature)?
According to the FAQ cited earlier in the thread, it emanates 5ft around the large, huge, gargantuan, or colossal creatures base. That is the very debate of this thread. Should small and medium creatures not get the same benefit of larger creatures?
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According to the FAQ cited earlier in the thread, it emanates 5ft around the large, huge, gargantuan, or colossal creatures base. That is the very debate of this thread. Should small and medium creatures not get the same benefit of larger creatures?What if emergency force sphere is casted by a Large creature? Huge creature? Would that creature have to select one of its intersecting squares protecting only 2-3 additional squares (assuming that the Large/Huge caster is also protected by the sphere since it occupies 1-2 squares of the spell effect) or does it "emanate" out 5' protecting all adjacent squares (12 sqaures + caster for Large creature and 16 squares + caster for Huge creature)?
EXACTLY!
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That is the very debate of this thread. Should small and medium creatures not get the same benefit of larger creatures?EXACTLY!
Thanks _Ozy_ for pointing out I'd miss remember the wording of the spell in debate.
@ckdragons, doing so would require an entire errata of how spells work. It's not happening until a new version of the core is designed.
Why?
Because it breaks too much.
Because EFS and other spells shouldn't be buffed (per Mark.)
Let's walk through some rules:
EFS has an area of "5-ft.-radius hemisphere of force centered on you".
The use of range is consistent with all spells "centered on you" (see bless.)
Looking in the rules for spell "Area"
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Pretty picture of a 5 ft radius.
What do we know from this?
- You must choose one of your 4 grid intersections for all centered on you spells.
- Exactly 4 squares are always included in the spell area, your square and 3 others depending on your grid choice.
- Spells work from grid to grid, so just like fireball not being a perfect 20 ft sphere, neither is 5 ft radius spells.
- This utterly falls apart for creatures larger than the core's target audience, so we got a FAQ that only covers the given case (Large or larger.)
- We have been told to not extend FAQ beyond their scope, so extending this to Medium or smaller isn't by design.
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There should be no "Area" spells with centered on you and "Range 0 ft".
There may be Effect spells with Range 0 ft and "centered on you.
Got a spell in mind?
Example:
Spell Funz
Range: 0 ft
Effect: Centered on you
You'd be in the only square effected by that spell.
Because it breaks too much.
You can argue that the change isn't necessary or important but it really doesn't break anything to make the mechanics more internally consistent.
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you thought this was an 'Area' spell instead of an 'Effect' Spell. Not sure if that changes things or not, but most of the 'grid intersection' stuff seems to apply to 'area'.
Roger that.
Ok this spell only has one relevant rule:
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
So this spell summons a sphere, within 5 ft range.
Unless there is a reason for 5 ft radius to be shaped different than 5 ft radius area, use the 4 square formation.
The range 5 ft is in congruent with Effect and "centered on you". Does anyone have a core rule book spell that is Range <> 0 ft (or blank) and using Effect not Area?
make the mechanics more internally consistent.The way to get back to consistent is to remove the Large waiver and go back to them not being able to effect adjacent allies.
Well, either decision would be consistent, though doing that would make the spell nonfunctional for anyone Huge or bigger.
Personally I'm in favor of making it work for medium creatures the way it does for Large+ creatures both because it lets everyone cast it and I find it's a little more intuitive.
Honestly if the FAQ didn't exist I'd probably have run it that way anyways purely because that sounds more like what the spell describes than how it's 'actually' supposed to function.
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I see no reason why EFS should be placed at a grid intersection anymore than a flaming sphere.
+1 after having read this several times.
there's no way a Large creature is going to fit unless you compress it into a sardine.
Which is likely why they made the FAQ. Again, the core rules were entirely written from the point of view of medium humanoid pcs.
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@_Ozy_, when we put all those rules quotes together, we get a 10 ft square that you are one of the four 5 ft squares.
It is limited to be no more than 5 ft from your square.
It can be up to 5 ft from you in origin.
Is that how it works that we have in agreement?
YX or XY or XX or XX
XX or XX or YX or XY
OR do we only have:
_X
XYX
_X
X ally
Y you
_ blank
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As in, does it really, yes really, need to be restricted to only you and 3 other allies, if you're medium sized?
I believe you underestimate the effectiveness of the spell.
I played an Oracle from 1st to 17th in RotRL with a ton of Wizard spells (Ancient Lorekeeper and Dreamed Secrets.) My 5th level spell slots were generally used up for EFS.
It was highly frustrating for the GM at times and very effective. It does require your allies be effective melee/ranged folks, because if you are isolating your casters mid fight, you need them to be dispatched.
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I was screwed because I couldn't take my animal companion, often. My AC was a large cat, so melee effective. But not real strong (HP and armor class). So when I caught the attention, I often would have to leave my AC behind.
I think there was a cleric, an alchemist, and I that often resulted in the EFS.
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A large animal wouldn't fit in the EFS regardless of whether you used the grid intersection based location, or the square-centered location.
I thought there was a rule that if you affect 1 square of a Large+ creature, then that creature is affected by the spell accordingly.
3) 5' radius around your square includes all 8 adjacent squares, just like getting hit by a splash weapon with a 5' splash radius.
If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
This would make sense (at least to me). Here is how I would understand this (which kinda includes the FAQ).
C = Caster
X = Squares affected (covered)
O = Squares not affected
Medium Caster:
O X O
X C X
O X O
Large Caster:
O X X O
X C C X
X C C X
O X X O
Huge Caster:
O X X X O
X C C C X
X C C C X
X C C C X
O X X X O
The diagonals wouldn't be included because their "far edge corner" is 15 ft from the caster (technically).
TL;DR
EFS by RAW is a square 10 ft by 10 ft by 10 ft and you are in there somewhere in 3 dimensions.
Holds 4 medium fine.
Holds only 1 large, so we got a FAQ so large can bring 3 medium buddies along.
By RAW EFS is a rectangle 10 ft long by 10 ft wide by 5 ft high. It is a hemisphere center on a point with a 5 ft radius.
TL;DR
EFS by RAW is a square 10 ft by 10 ft by 10 ft and you are in there somewhere in 3 dimensions.
Holds 4 medium fine.
Holds only 1 large, so we got a FAQ so large can bring 3 medium buddies along.
If it was a full sphere, it'd be 10 X 10 X 10.
But it's not.
It's a HEMIsphere. So, the dimensions are actually 10 X 10 X 5.
Which means you most likely won't be fitting in that space, especially if we apply hemisphere logic in that there is a curve from the point of origin to the edge of the effect, scaling from 5 feet down to 0 feet, which makes sense, and a GM is well within the rights to use that argument.
Which means the spell doesn't work for anything that is 5 feet or taller, because then you'd be trapped in the spell effect. Or, you'd have to be prone or some other crap.
Also, I have no idea where you're getting this "3 medium buddies" crap. The FAQ says that Large+ creatures treat their entire space as the spell origin. Which means the spell origin is a square, not a grid intersection, which means that all creatures, NOT three, NOT two, but ALL creatures adjacent to the Large+ creature are affected. Oh, and the height of the Hemisphere would be equal to the creature's height, so it can comfortably fit in the hemisphere without recourse of being stuck by the spell effect. Same goes for the Medium- creatures adjacent to the caster.
Compared to a Medium- caster using it, with most likely unintended consequences. Congratulations, you broke the spell.
I've come up with another interpretation of how emergancy force sphere is supposed to work.
It doesn't have an 'Area', it has an 'Effect'. The boundary of an 'Area' is along the grid lines, but effects appear in a specified location, which may mean on the squares themselves.
Therefore, an effect that is a 5-ft. radius sphere centered on a Medium-sized caster would appear on the adjacent squares (and that's why it has range of 5 ft.).
The same would apply to the wall of force: it should go through the middle of squares. Thus the clause about it having to be unbroken, which means that no creature can occupy any of the spaces the wall goes through. It is not affected by creatures on the adjacent squares.
Such emergancy force sphere could protect ony the caster and those sharing his space, which does look to me like the intent of the spell. And it probably couldn't be created with creatures on the squares adjacent to the caster present (like the wall of force, it has to be unbroken).
This is a ridiculous issue that shouldn't exist. Imagine the following scenario that demonstrates the extent of the ridiculousness:
One fine day the God of Gods (the gamemaster) decides that everything in the entire gaming multiverse he controls, grows 100% in all 3 basic dimensions. This divine being is incredibly wise,smart and powerful, and made sure that every aspect of the multiverse that would betray the size increase, is altered to compensate so that absolutely nothing is left that could point to any of this happening. Not even a single being has any awareness of any of this happening.
Now, all previously medium creatures are large, and find that spells centered on themselves suddenly work much favorably. Creatures that are still not large are left in tears.