I currently have a 7th-level lore ward fighter with the following feats:
Combat Expertise (B), Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Greater Disarm, Greater Trip (B), Mobility (B), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Spring Attack (B), Whirlwind Attack
Now, I've been hearing about all sorts of "substitution feats" in newer source books as of late that replace some of the prerequisites for these feats, as well as cool armor training/weapon training replacement abilities, and I was wondering if there was now a more efficient way to make this trick fighter work.
(And by trick fighter, I mean being rather proficient with combat maneuvers in general, and possessing the ability to trip AND disarm everyone within reach in a single round specifically.)
I would replace disarm with dirty trick as they work on any foe, and take either some bounty hunter slayer or skulking slayer rogue.
This will allow free dirty trick instead of the sneak damage.
Also, add effects :
Enforcer , spear dancer , cruel weapon all stack...
A trip, shaken, sicken , blind foe is a dead foe.
Well Dirty Fighting is basically the big anti-tax feat that's been introduced which can replace combat expertise and some stats (usually the int 13 bit).
That said, I'd consider looking into a Brawler rather than a Fighter for a maneuver spam build. They get bonuses to maneuvers, and can have a more stable core of feats and just let martial flexibility pick up maneuvers as needed. At L7 you're going to start running into a litany of creatures that are immune or prohibitively resistant to disarm/trip (ie pure natural attackers, huge+ creatures, anything with flight, etc) and your damage output is pretty lackluster if you need to go to backup.
Whirlwind Attack has like the highest Feat Tax of all.
That being said, I have been thinking of a character build that uses Panther Style Feats, who get Free-Action Attacks by provoking Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares. Since that is what they do, it behooves that character to take Mobility, and once you have Mobility, which gives that +4 Bonus to AC for just such an occasion. And since you are moving around a lot already, Spring Attack makes a lot of Sense. And now you have Spring Attack, you might as well take Whirlwind Attack.
So my first recommendation. If you are taking Whirlwind attack, pick up Panther Style Feats along the way.
Panther Style Feats only work with Unarmed Strikes, so that's usually only a Monk thing. But maybe you don't want to completely Retrain all your levels of Fighter to Levels on Monk. But if you take Ascetic Style (This isnt' for PFS, is it?), you can use your Unarmed-only Feats with a chosen weapon. And since you are getting Whirlwind Attack, you should make it as big a weapon as you can. Ascetic Style only works on weapons in the Monk Fighter Weapon Group, but if your character is Human or something, you can take the Martial Versatility Feat, which allows you to apply those Feats to any Weapon in the same group as the weapon you chose, so take Ascetic Style for your Temple Sword, then take Martial Versatility, and use a Greatsword or something.
You can't use 2 Style Feats at once unless you have 1 level in Monk Master of Many Styles, but dipping or re-training only 1 level isn't so bad, is it?
There is a problem with Tripping: Size limit: you can only Trip someone who is no more than 1 size bigger than you.
If you take the Harder they Fall Feat, that gets around the problem and also mitigates the obvious problem associated with Tripping really big creatures: the bigger they are, the harder they are to Trip in the first place.
Harder they Fall is a Teamwork Feat, and it depends upon allies using Aid Another. If you dip or re-train 3 levels in Inquisitor or 1 level in Cavalier, you can use Teamwork Feats even if your allies never took it.
Also, what do you use for a Trip Weapon? Personally, I've favored cheap, disposable weapons: the advantage of a Trip weapon is that you can drop it in the event of a catastrophic Trip Attempt that would otherwise knock you prone yourself, but if your Trip Weapon is something big like a Horsechopper or Halberd, you'll probably miss it when it's gone. But if it's something small and cheap like a Flail or Sickle, you just shrug your shoulders, pull another one off your belt, and keep fighting.
Flails are Disarm Weapons in addition to Trip Weapons, so that would be a very solid choice.
Another option I've been toying in my head with as a Trip Weapon is the Throwing Shield. Since you are Throwing it, you sort of are already dropping it, so no worries about catastrophic Trip Rolls. If you invest in a Blinkback Belt, you get your shield back (on your 'Belt) instantly after you throw it. If your Throwing Shield is also a Quickdraw Throwing Shield, you can re-draw it as a Swift Action or as a Free Action if you also take the Quickdraw Feat.
If you also take Snapshot, you Threaten with your Throwing Shield, so you could also take Attacks of Opportunity with it such as from Greater Trip. If you take Improved Snapshot, you Threaten within 10'. Since Throwing a Throwing Shield is a Free Action, your Blinkback Belt instantly teleports it back to you, and you can then re-drawing with Quickdraw also as a Free Action, you should be able to use the shield as your primary Tripping Weapon and your Attack of Opportunity Weapon. You might also use it to make your Whirlwind Attacks.
Throwing the Throwing Shield is a Free Action, and Free Actions don't usually provoke Attacks of Opportunity, but using a Ranged Weapon in Melee does. To my understanding, any GM might well rule that using a Throwing Shield in melee does or does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
Another caveat: there are a few people on this thread who HAAAATE the idea of combining the Throwing Shield, the Blinkback Belt, and the Quickdraw Feat, and just because I'm advising this, I think they will attempt to spam your thread with unsupported arguments and ad hominem attacks until the moderaters lock your thread. They've done it before. They've been trolling me for years. I can absolutely prove that all my advice is square with the rules as written, and I have no problem doing so upon request.
The closest thing I can think of to a legit objection is the idea that since all this Throwing Shield stuff is Free Actions, you might theoretically use it to get infinity attacks in a round. But that's not the case. The description of Free Actions in the Core Rulebook supported by FAQs specifically empower GMs to put "reasonable limits" on the number of Free Actions you can take in a round.
So use it to Whirlwind. Use it to Trip, and use it for Attacks of Opportunity, but don't expect to get more than 1-2 totally Free Attacks/round, depending on what the GM calls "reasonable."
Also, bear in mind that Throwing Shield character build features are expensive: Exotic Weapon, Weapon focus, Rapid Shot, Snapshot, Point Blank and Precise Shot probably, a 5000gp Wondrous Item. Worth it? You decide.
How do you feel about other Combat Maneuvers: Grappling and Dirty Tricks? How do you feel about dipping/multiclassing? How do you feel about Sneak Attack Damage?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Other combat maneuvers are great, and I'm open to suggestions for useful builds for them, but not for this particular character. I kind of want to keep him on disarming/tripping.
I would consider doing mutagenic warrior/eldritch guardian fighter.
Eldritch guardian has one of the largest advantages of any maneuver based build- they share all their feats with their familiar. Grab a nice mauler familiar with some str (usually the fox, if I remember right) and it will be fantastic- it gets your BAB, but it also has scaling bonuses to str which adds to CMB.
Mutagenic warrior is advised due purely to str based mutagens (because again- CMB; makes up a bit for the loss of lore warden). Also, you can get wings, which is always nice.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The rules for the mauler familiar are a bit ambiguous though. The only rules that govern their size increases are in the monster creation/advancement rules. There's a table there that you're supposed to use any time a creature changes sizes (unless more specific rules override the general table).
If you use that table, then the mauler is pretty awesome.
However, the developers say to use the polymorph size change rules table instead (which pretty much makes the mauler crap). I think they're wrong; not only does that not make any sense, but going that route is not supported by RAW, and also opens up a huge can of rules eating worms.
Ravingdork wrote: The rules for the mauler familiar are a bit ambiguous though. The only rules that govern that are in the monster creation/advancement rules. There's a table you're supposed to use any time a creature changes sizes (unless more specific rules override the general table).
If you use that table, the mauler is pretty awesome.
However, the developers say to use the polymorph size change rules table instead (which means the mauler is crap), but they're wrong. Not only does that not make any sense, but going that route is not only unsupported by RAW, but also opens up a huge can of rules eating worms.
The fox still reaches 16 str after it goes medium (9 str+1 mauler scaling+4 size change +2 mauler special ability), and still gets str scaling past that point that is comparable to the upper level rage of barbarians (+8 str). So it is fair enough for back up and extra action economy once you give it your full BAB.
You can certainly use it to help you cripple enemy casters, at the very least.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lemeres wrote: You can certainly use it to help you cripple enemy casters, at the very least. A subpar martial against a caster? That seems like a good way to get your familiar massacred.
Invisibility, displacement, mirror image...these are all things that totally screw the mauler, and we aren't even talking about the high level defenses yet.
Ravingdork wrote: Other combat maneuvers are great, and I'm open to suggestions for useful builds for them, but not for this particular character. I kind of want to keep him on disarming/tripping. You do? Are you Mark Seifter Super Fan? That is one of your Aliases?
Ravingdork wrote: lemeres wrote: You can certainly use it to help you cripple enemy casters, at the very least. A subpar martial against a caster? That seems like a good way to get your familiar massacred.
Invisibility, displacement, mirror image...these are all things that totally screw the mauler, and we aren't even talking about the high level defenses yet. In my experiences gaming, Familiars, Animal Companions, and Cohorts only exist for the GM to kill when he doesn't want kill your PC.
When I create a character with one of those, either they are a side effect of the build, such as taking a level in Cavalier to get Tactician and getting a Mount along with the dip, or if I have a very specific purpose in mind for that Familiar, such as a Tumor Protector Familiar that will use Shield Other and its Fast Healing 5 and also give me that +2 bonus in something.
For a Mauler Familiar, I was sort of thinking of in terms of a Size Small Character with a Flying Familiar that will be ridden as a mount (not a Mount!). Maybe take levels in Eldritch Guardian Fighter to gift the Familiar Combat Feats, especially Teamwork Feats, have the Familiar use Aid Another to Activate Harder they Fall to get around Size Restrictions on Combat Maneuvers such as Improved Trip. And of course, there is using a Lance on a Charge for double damage. If we're talking Lance now, we are talking charging, so perhaps Bull Rushing and Overrunning, but you want to focus on Tripping and Disarming.
I was also thinking maybe a Beastmorph Witch, which will allow you do do things such as Polymorph into the same kinds of creature that the Familiar is, such as Vermin, but I don't really have any build in mind.
Ravingdork wrote: lemeres wrote: You can certainly use it to help you cripple enemy casters, at the very least. A subpar martial against a caster? That seems like a good way to get your familiar massacred.
Invisibility, displacement, mirror image...these are all things that totally screw the mauler, and we aren't even talking about the high level defenses yet. Depends on initiative and build. Obviously, you should not use the familiar as a beat stick. That would very predictability be a massacre. The advantage I would aim for with an eldritch guardian is the doubled action economy for feat based stuff, which include maneuvers.
A dirty trick focused build at around level 10 can make a caster nauseated in one round if there is a one-two hit. Once a caster loses their standard action, there is often relatively little they can do. Sure, quickened spells, but forcing a caster to use a slot 4 spell levels higher just to be able to do anything is already a really big accomplishment.
At the level this starts coming on (~11?), a wizard would only get 1 2nd level spell, and a couple 1 level spells.
There is a risk that the familiar could be targeted... but the same applies to the classic wand using familiar. Both allow their owner to double up on some kind of action economy, which makes them attractive targets.
Maulers have a slightly better time at close range since the owner gives them a better base HP and you can improve that with a feat. That can patch them up to about d8 levels. And it isn't like a familiar has to be lacking in AC- you get a scaling bonus up to +10, and you can give them armor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Other combat maneuvers are great, and I'm open to suggestions for useful builds for them, but not for this particular character. I kind of want to keep him on disarming/tripping. You do? Are you Mark Seifter Super Fan? That is one of your Aliases? lol, yeah, I forgot to stay in character. :P
Scott Wilhelm wrote: a few people on this thread who HAAAATE the idea of combining the Throwing Shield, the Blinkback Belt, and the Quickdraw Feat ... I can absolutely prove that all my advice is square with the rules as written, and I have no problem doing so upon request. Well, actually, it doesn't work.
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