
Obeliske |
So I was having a conversation with my GM the other day and we got to talking about average damage and health for monsters as she does quite a bit of off the rails stuff (not that I'm complaining eh :P ). From there I got to wondering about max possible damage and the way I figure it with a lightning bolt at level 3 with average wealth by level I can see doing a DC 22 lightning bolt for 18d6+54 at level 10 without metamagics (not that I'm against taking them I just found the level increase to be to much at level 10 with crossblooded). I'm wondering if anybody has a more damaging spell?
I'd like to know what the highest possible damage is with a single spell (with no setup time) at levels ten and fifteen. Anybody want to chime in? Does anybody know of a way to pump more damage onto a single target?

Obeliske |
In case your wondering,
Rakshasa Spawn Teifling Sorcerer (Crossblooded, tattooed sorcerer, wildblooded) Using Primal Air and Draconic bloolines with the bloodline mutations blood havoc and blood intensity.
Lightning bolt does d6 per level at level ten. With Blood Intensity that's 8 extra dice (assuming you've pumped cha to 26ish which should be doable) meaning your rolling 18 dice, meaning between primal air, draconic, and the blood havoc mutation that's an extra 54 damage. Which is roughly 117 DPR for 2 rounds a day.
I want to know if anybody can beat this with a single spell on a single target.

Obeliske |
Lightning bolt is normally max 10d6, since you are calling out 20d6 I must be assuming you are using blood intensity from magic tactics toolbox... and have a charisma of 30. And only a couple times per day.
I had my numbers wrong but yes, I just hadn't typed it yet :P Number of times per day doesn't matter I just want to know the largest hit a sorcerer can make at levels 10 and 15, I'm not looking for sustained as this isn't a character I intend to play, just theoretical work here :)
Pretty sure you still need the actual caster level to get those extra dice.
It doesn't say that in the ability it simply states that it doesn't stack with intensify spell.

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I disagree with that interpretation, but lets go with your reading for the sake of the argument.
None of those Archetypes stack (all modify bloodline power 9 at least), but lets skip that discussion as well.
Battering Blast, will do 30d6+60(ave 165) (say orc bloodline, bloodline havoc, blood intensity, no archetypes, no metamagic, no traits, etc)
At level 15, it will do 45d6+90(ave 247.5) assuming your Cha doesn't increase above 30.
Throw in the two traits to lower metamagic cost on a single spell, and you can empower as a 3rd level slot. Throw in Maximize metamagic rod and now we are at 360 maximized + the empowered bit of 123.5 (247.5/2) = 483.5 on a single target average.

avr |

Max damage, huh? I'll use the interpretation that blood intensity functions as intensify spell (raises the cap not the CL) since the mutation says exactly that. Warning: metamagic will be involved. For one thing a crossblooded sorcerer has little other use for their highest level spell slots.
Assuming a human with crossblooded orc/arcane bloodline, blood havoc & blood intensity at level 10.
Traits: Magical lineage, wayang spellhunter/metamagic master, both on burning arc
Feats: Spell focus (evocation), varisian tattoo, burning amplification, spell specialization, empower spell, maximize spell, quicken spell, elemental spell
Gear: orange prism ioun stone, greater goblin fire drum
Take burning arc as a lower level 1d6/level spell than lightning bolt. with the traits & feats above you're looking at an empowered maximized burning arc for (14d6/2) + 168 damage (Edit: corrected) followed by quickened burning arc for another 14d6 + 56. Hmm. It's more but not a lot more. Oh, and if the target fails their save they're on fire.
A bead of karma could add +4 CL but since that's one use only I left it out. Better optimisers than I can come up with more damage I'm sure.

avr |

For 15th level we're going to use disintegrate instead.
Human crossblooded orc/martyred sorcerer 4 / rogue 1 / arcane trickster 10 with the blood havoc bloodline mutation.
Traits: magical knack, briar bandit
Feats: spell focus (transmutation), varisian tattoo, spell specialization, accomplished sneak attacker, great fortitude, piercing spell, maximize spell, quicken spell, toughness, spell perfection (disintegrate).
Gear: orange prism ioun stone, sniper goggles, +1 sneaky whip
Throw a quickened sense vitals first then use your sneaky whip to designate the target. Assuming you've taken damage in the last round - even from yourself via the free action martyr ability - then you're at +1 CL. Then your piercing maximised disintegrate will do 12d6+291 damage by my count.

Darksol the Painbringer |

Disintegrate is a crappy spell that's too high of level to make regular use of (can't cast it until 12th level, so over 60% of your adventuring career means you're using another spell to do your work), and requires people to have bad Fortitude Saves for it to function properly (which, at that level, nobody has bad Fortitude Saves; literally nobody).
There's no doubt that it can be the highest-damaging spell in the game. But, it requires enemies failing saving throws to do its unreal damage, and the kind of damage it does do, only applies to a single target. It's otherwise only as strong as a single Battering Blast at that level (which, with optimization, can deal upwards of 20D6+40 damage per casting), and quite frankly an optimized Fireball character can deal a compromised amount of damage to multiple enemies simultaneously.
And that's not factoring in Resistances and all that fun stuff, which, with an Arcanist Fireball-focused specialist, can bypass on a more-than-regular basis.
In addition, Crossblooded is overrated; Draconic/Elemental bloodlines only apply to specific damage types, of which most enemies will have resistance to at the level you're planning to apply it to.

avr |

All true Darksol. If I was going to actually play a blaster I'd go different ways every time. The original request however was for the maximum single target damage for comparison purposes, I believe.
You have misread something though; in neither crossblooded example above was draconic or elemental used. The first used arcane for the ability for a sorcerer to cast metamagiced spells as a standard action (to allow use of the goblin fire drum), the second used martyred because disintegrate doesn't use an elemental damage type.

Darksol the Painbringer |

I don't think you can have both Crossblooded and Blood Mutations, since both alter Bloodline Powers. While Blood Mutations aren't archetypes, I imagine if you have something that alters Bloodline Powers like Blood Mutations, that you couldn't take an archetype that replaces or alters Bloodline Powers as well.

Obeliske |
I disagree with that interpretation, but lets go with your reading for the sake of the argument.
None of those Archetypes stack (all modify bloodline power 9 at least), but lets skip that discussion as well.
Battering Blast, will do 30d6+60(ave 165) (say orc bloodline, bloodline havoc, blood intensity, no archetypes, no metamagic, no traits, etc)
At level 15, it will do 45d6+90(ave 247.5) assuming your Cha doesn't increase above 30.Throw in the two traits to lower metamagic cost on a single spell, and you can empower as a 3rd level slot. Throw in Maximize metamagic rod and now we are at 360 maximized + the empowered bit of 123.5 (247.5/2) = 483.5 on a single target average.
We have very different idea's on how to play. My group plays by RAW not RAI and in the archetypes section it says as long as a single archetype does not replace the same power you can stack them. Crossblooded by RAW and RAI stack with everything, it isn't using a replacement effect but modifying how a class is played (in a very minor way), primal elemental modifies an existing power that would exist whether taking Crossblooded or not (which is fully in the rules) and tattooed sorcerer then uses a replacement effect to remove the primal ability completely which is again fully in the rules.

Orfamay Quest |

Firebug wrote:We have very different idea's on how to play. My group plays by RAW not RAI and in the archetypes section it says as long as a single archetype does not replace the same power you can stack them. Crossblooded by RAW and RAI stack with everything, it isn't using a replacement effect but modifying how a class is played (in a very minor way), primal elemental modifies an existing power (that no longer exists due to taking the primal archetype) and tattooed sorcerer then uses a replacement effect to remove the primal ability completely.I disagree with that interpretation, but lets go with your reading for the sake of the argument.
None of those Archetypes stack (all modify bloodline power 9 at least), but lets skip that discussion as well.
Battering Blast, will do 30d6+60(ave 165) (say orc bloodline, bloodline havoc, blood intensity, no archetypes, no metamagic, no traits, etc)
At level 15, it will do 45d6+90(ave 247.5) assuming your Cha doesn't increase above 30.Throw in the two traits to lower metamagic cost on a single spell, and you can empower as a 3rd level slot. Throw in Maximize metamagic rod and now we are at 360 maximized + the empowered bit of 123.5 (247.5/2) = 483.5 on a single target average.
I'm afraid you are wrong. By RAW, two archetypes that merely modify the same feature are incompatible.

Obeliske |
I'm not going to get into this argument as it's been held a million times on these forums. You play your game your way and we will play ours.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ro2b&page=2?Archetype-Stacking
I agree with Bverji he gives ample proof and argument for it regardless of what other people want to and force themselves to think. W Canepa then comes in with in my opinion a coup-de-grace on page two. It's an interesting read at the very least.
Regardless please stay on the OT and lets not get off topic with our respective beliefs about how we think things in our made up make believe fantasy world should be. If we're going to do that can we start with real life please boy I have a lot on THAT topic :P

Darksol the Painbringer |

Firebug wrote:We have very different idea's on how to play. My group plays by RAW not RAI and in the archetypes section it says as long as a single archetype does not replace the same power you can stack them. Crossblooded by RAW and RAI stack with everything, it isn't using a replacement effect but modifying how a class is played (in a very minor way), primal elemental modifies an existing power that would exist whether taking Crossblooded or not (which is fully in the rules) and tattooed sorcerer then uses a replacement effect to remove the primal ability completely which is again fully in the rules.I disagree with that interpretation, but lets go with your reading for the sake of the argument.
None of those Archetypes stack (all modify bloodline power 9 at least), but lets skip that discussion as well.
Battering Blast, will do 30d6+60(ave 165) (say orc bloodline, bloodline havoc, blood intensity, no archetypes, no metamagic, no traits, etc)
At level 15, it will do 45d6+90(ave 247.5) assuming your Cha doesn't increase above 30.Throw in the two traits to lower metamagic cost on a single spell, and you can empower as a 3rd level slot. Throw in Maximize metamagic rod and now we are at 360 maximized + the empowered bit of 123.5 (247.5/2) = 483.5 on a single target average.
Too bad there's this FAQ that says you can't.
If you add to an existing (or even include a separate) option, or even remove an existing (or separate) option, you're altering that feature, and as such won't stack with other archetypes that replace (or even similarly alter) that feature.
It's also the reason why you can't stack Crossblooded with Wildblooded, since both alter the entire Bloodline feature.

Obeliske |
If your not going to bother reading my link why should I read yours? Regardless once again I'm not going to get into this argument you play your game your way and we will play ours. The initial question is what is the highest damaging spell possible at levels ten and fifteen.
Sitting here and arguing about how we play our game in an attempt to teach us how to have fun is trolling. Don't be a troll answer the question, partake of the discussion or don't bother posting.

Obeliske |
Every time I come to these forums I get arguments on rules interpretations, and that's what they are (interpretations). I feel like the amount of arguing and trolling that happens to anybody who disagrees with the majority opinion (here) eventually gives up and leaves, leaving the remaining people all sitting here self congratulating themselves and each other on how great they are and how great their game is. The game is not competitive but some people sure want to make it seem like it with their interpretations being the only ones possible. I'm very close to leaving myself as I'm tired of this behavior. Stay on friggen topic people or gtfo.

Edward the Necromancer |

To get this conversation back on track, here is something I came up with in about 5 minuets
Half-Orc Sorcerer(Orc Bloodline)
Bloodline Arcana: You gain the orc subtype, including darkvision 60 feet and light sensitivity. If you already have darkvision, its range increases to 90 feet. Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
Favored Class Options: +1/2 points of fire damage to spells cast (so a level 10 sorcerer would add +5)
at Level 10 cast Empowered Fireball(for a 5th slot), Damage will be 10d6(times 1.5)+15. Average Damage will be 67.5 damage per casting to everything in the blast zone. Not insane but nothing to shrug off either at level 10.
Combine this with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus and you have a completely legal, cheese free pyromaniac.
Now lets stay on topic people.

Darksol the Painbringer |

If your not going to bother reading my link why should I read yours? Regardless once again I'm not going to get into this argument you play your game your way and we will play ours. The initial question is what is the highest damaging spell possible at levels ten and fifteen.
Sitting here and arguing about how we play our game in an attempt to teach us how to have fun is trolling. Don't be a troll answer the question, partake of the discussion or don't bother posting.
That argument makes no sense when an official FAQ from the Pathfinder Design Team trumps anything your link might say. FAQs aren't merely an interpretation from a player's perspective, as what your posts simply are, they're official rulings based on unclear or inconsistent rules within the game. Saying they're an interpretation is flat-out false, and regarding them the same as an interpretation is a major misnomer, one that PFS players will have a bad time with if they treat such things as pushovers.
If you want to play differently from what the Pathfinder rules are, then that's your (and your players') prerogative. But expecting people to be familiar with or agree with your houserules is a ridiculous notion that we don't have any obligation to abide by, or even acknowledge, most simply because we aren't players at your table.
And I've already said my fair share on the topic at hand. But I'll go ahead and sum it up for you:
-Disintegrate is a crappy spell.
-Battering Blast scales infinitely better for Single Target
-Fireball is practically guaranteed to do more damage than Disintegrate as long as it affects more than one person and you keep your saving throws up to snuff.
The reason I don't give any more information is because A. That's about all you need (you said this isn't the DPR olympics, so it doesn't particularly matter how much power there is, simply a general idea is enough), and B. Using things like Blood Mutations in addition to Archetypes which alter/replace Bloodline Powers is something that is at-best murky within the rules, and as such shouldn't be trusted to work, even at your table.