Scorpion style and those aren't technical [style] feats. For style feats the feat chain only works in that style the only way to combine styles is through Master of Many Styles monk, there might also beat a feat that could allow it.
Another example would be boar style: "Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style...". Which implies that the benefit before the "While using this style" is passive.
You have a point here. Several style descriptions lack the 'while using this style' part, so I wouldn't call it an oversight. It's not intuitive, but appearantly some styles offer benefits without entering them.
Further, the general description of style feats doesn't state all benefits are restricted to the active style. Neither in UC nor in ACG.
Balance wise it's ok, too. The +1d6 damage from Jabbing Style is moderately situational (unarmed only, have to hit twice per round, applies only 1/round), so compared to a baseline feat like Weapon Specialization (+2 damage, but restricted to fighter and only for a chosen weapon) it's rather a tad weak.
I think what our OP is trying to sort out, is not if you can GET both feats, and merge them with MoMs monk. Rather most style feats read with "While in this style..." at some point, where Jabbing Style doesnt.
Snake style gives a +2 sense motive, and piercing damage without being in the style, so always active. While in the style, a secondary effect. Jabbing style, not having "While in the style..." text should mean the style is passive. Using it with a second style seems likely. You can have snake style, and any other style, and while solely in the second style you still gain the Skill bonus and piercing damage, so why wouldnt Jabbing styles bonus stack with any other style, regardless of having MoM's monk, or Weapon Style feats?
Im on board with Jabbing style passively giving a bonus to damage, as long as the requirements are met. 2 or more unarmed strike hits.
RAW, everything without "While in the style..." is passive. There are no rules that prevent the passive effects from working out of stance, so they do.
I don't know if that's intended, but it might just be.
The style feat section says to use the style feats (which by the way are the 1st feats in the chain) you have to use a swift action to enter they style, you cannot do it outside of combat and you may only be in one at a time.
Yes, but as has been pointed out, there are many styles that grant a passive bonus. Those, as some devs have said while others refuted, are ALWAYS active, in style stance or not.
If the feat is only active when your in the stance, then any bonus from the feat is only active in the stance. Magic rings say they have to be worn to function and most of them grant passive bonuses but if your not using the ring then you don't get the bonus.
Considering Kirin Style came out with the rest of the feats under a heading that says you can only use a feat with a style prerequisite while in that style yes. Keep in mind that mistakes do happen this is the same book which brought us Prone shooter which originally did nothing.
My rule of thumb with style feats:
If there are initial abilities followed by 'while in this style...' abilities then anything prior to 'while in this style...' are always active.
If there is no 'while in this style...' text then it all defaults to the base rules and you must be in that style to use any of the abilities.
My rule of thumb with style feats:
If there are initial abilities followed by 'while in this style...' abilities then anything prior to 'while in this style...' are always active.
If there is no 'while in this style...' text then it all defaults to the base rules and you must be in that style to use any of the abilities.
So you believe that a good number of the style feats completely ignore the rules for style feats? The whole point style feats is that theydon't function while not in use and you can only use one at a time, other wise why would we have feats and Archetypes to circumvent that?
Just looking at the Style feats from UC.
Boar Style: Have all three damage types for unarmed and able to demoralize as a move action.
Crane Style: Wing and Riposte now just require you to fight defensivly so you can choose a better style to benefit from and still use these two.
Djinni Style: All feats require style to do more than grant extra stunning/elemental fist.
Dragon Style: Nothing functions when not using style.
Earth Child Style: Can always trip bigger things once you have the feat.
Janni Style: Nothing functions when not using style.
Kirin Style: Boosted Knowledge checks all the time.
Marid Style: Same as Djinni.
Panther Style: No function outside of style.
Shaitan Style: Same as Djinni.
Snake Style: Harder to trip and can do peircing damage with unarmed.
Snapping Turtle: Have to be in style.
Tiger Style have to be in Style. (Interesting one it's the only damage change style for unarmed that list this after the magic "while in this style" phrase.)
I'm not disagreeing from a GM standpoint but from a rules standpoint. I believe several of the bonuses make sense to be allowed, such as Kirin Style's checks or the bonus stunning fist attempts.
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So my take on this issue is to look at how the rest of the system works. In particular, look at how specific trumps general works.
In this case, what is the general rule?
For centuries, great warriors have looked to nature and the multiverse to find inspiration in battle. Countless monastic and contemplative orders have crafted intricate unarmed fighting styles based on the deadliness and grace of natural and supernatural creatures. Although many such fighting techniques were created by secretive orders, they have since spread to practitioners the world over.
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.
Ok, so the general rule is that you can only use/gain the benefits of feats that use Styles as a prerequisite while in the associated Style.
Note that this general rule does not say that you only gain the benefits of the style feat itself while actively in the style.
So lets look at a particular style feat. We'll use Kirin Style since it's come up already.
Alright, well there is the wording that limits this style's benefits to the time you are actually using the style.
Lets look at a chain feat
There is no specific rule here that trumps the general rule for Style Feats. There is however a specific rule that trumps the general rules for taking 10 on a skill check. This is not evidence for gaining passive bonuses from style feats or style related feats.
If you can find an example of wording that does trump the general style feat rule then have at it (im at work and don't have time to look through all of them so if someone else can do that then please do, i'd like to see it).
The style feat section says to use the style feats (...) you have to use a swift action to enter they style (...)
Please provide a rules quote for this.
(...) why would we have feats and Archetypes to circumvent that?
Because the style feat itself is rarely the important one, it's the later feats that are powerful. Also, many style feat do have the "While using this style" limitation for at least part of their effect.
Crane Style: Wing and Riposte now just require you to fight defensivly so you can choose a better style to benefit from and still use these two.
Er, no? Followup feats only work while the style is active. That part is clearly stated by the rules.
The style feat section says to use the style feats (...) you have to use a swift action to enter they style (...)Please provide a rules quote for this.
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.
Bolding and Italics mine, we can see that you can't use a style feat outside of combat and we can see that it takes an action to be using the feat. Which means the feat is not always on with a special "style" usage your either using it or not.
(...) why would we have feats and Archetypes to circumvent that?Because the style feat itself is rarely the important one, it's the later feats that are powerful. Also, many style feat do have the "While using this style" limitation for at least part of their effect.
Crane Style: Wing and Riposte now just require you to fight defensivly so you can choose a better style to benefit from and still use these two.Er, no? Followup feats only work while the style is active. That part is clearly stated by the rules.
I'm addressing 2 and three desperately. I agree with what you say on these however it has already been argued above that the whole chain is subject to the magic phrase not just the main feat. If the debate with you is over the main feat then I can understand that reading of things as plausible.
we can see that it takes an action to be using the feat.
No, the bolded part says that it takes an action to enter the stance. It does not say thay you need to be in the stance to gain any benefit. Also, I'm very sure that the "use" in the italized part refers to the bolded part (i.e. entering a stance), but that's basically irrelevant to the discussion.
it has already been argued above that the whole chain is subject to the magic phrase not just the main feat.
Er, what? Do you perhaps mean this the other way around? I don't understand what you're saying.
I'm not going to play a game of yes, no, yes, no , rabbit season, duck season on the first point.
it has already been argued above that the whole chain is subject to the magic phrase not just the main feat.Er, what? Do you perhaps mean this the other way around? I don't understand what you're saying.
As for this just a handful of post above we have people arguing that parts of the Kirin Path feat work outside of Kirin Style's Stance.
Ah, I missed that.
The rules on followup feats are clear - "You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style." Unless a followup feat explicitly states that it can be used outside of the stance, it can't be.
The style feat itself has no corresponding rules. See how the rule for folluw up feats are worded? "You can use (...) only while". Is there any even remotely similar text for the main feat?
I'm not going to play a game of yes, no, yes, no , rabbit season, duck season on the first point.
I'm not playing any games, I'm using proper argumentation. If you can't make arguments of your own that prove that I'm wrong, you should be man enough to admit that I'm right. You have quoted rules for entering a stance without showing that entering a stance is required. In short, you have not provided a rules quote for your claim that "The style feat section says to use the style feats (...) you have to use a swift action to enter they style (...)" at all. There is no phrase like "to use [a] style feat" in the rule text you quoted.
Okay then explain to me what using a feat means to you? I cannot use a style feat before combat begins, correct? Yes that is correct per my earlier quote, here it is again.
Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.
So your belief is that you can benefit from a feat that has to be used even when not using it? If so then why?
I'm not trying to use a style feat before combat begins. I'm trying to use a style feat in combat without entering the stance first, which is not covered by your rule quote.
Try again.
If the "gain a benefit. While in [relevant] style gain another benefit" wording doesn't over-ride the general rules on style feats when do you gain the extra use of elemental fist from feats such as Djinni Spirit?
Well, it's possible that it's indeed intended - wouldn't be the first class where you get increased recources from temporary stuff (cf. Mindchemist and bombs). There is an FAQ for this, after all.
Mechanically, it's no problem. If your at 7/8 Elemental Fists in stance and next combat haven't activated your stance yet, you can't use Elemental Fist. Once you enter the stance, you can use EF again.