| 26 people marked this as a favorite. |
People have lately been violently disagreeing with what the baseline assumptions of the game are in terms of things like the GM lying to the players because it seems like it will make things more fun.
I'd like to get an estimate of how common some of these attitudes are.
Please favorite the result or results you agree with.
(1) I would be offended if I knew a GM tried to lie to me - for example by saying he rolls all dice fairly, but actually changing a dice roll behind to a screen to avoid killing me with a critical hit.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
(2) I don't mind the GM fudging rolls as long as I'm warned in advance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(3) I don't mind the GM fudging rolls as long as I never find out about it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
(4) I don't mind minor deceits by the GM, but the dice should be treated as sacred.
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
(5) I would much prefer to be in a game where the GM fudges to avoid killing my character due to bad luck.
| 25 people marked this as a favorite. |
(6) I am offended by anyone referring to normal GM fudging as "cheating".
| 34 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would offer:
"Implicit in the trust I invest in the GM in playing in a game they are running is the trust to let them make judgment calls on whether something benefits the game or not, up to and including direct intervention."
This is my position- go wild and so long as I'm having fun I don't care what you're doing behind the scenes/screen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
None of the above.
I see no particular reason dice should be worshipped, ignorance isn't bliss, I don't see the point of lying about it, and 'normal DM fudging' is loading the question pretty hard.
Also the obvious rational solution is 'the group should have a casual conversation about it.'
I mean 5 is the closest in the pole but i kinda with Cabbage here.
I just favorited 5 answers, including Cabbage's. Is this a problem? Was I supposed to pick one?
I just favorited 5 answers, including Cabbage's. Is this a problem? Was I supposed to pick one?
The OP says:
"Please favorite the result or results you agree with."
So you're good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't care about dice rolls or "fudging" as long as the game is fun.
(3) I don't mind the GM fudging rolls as long as I never find out about it.
Minor clarification to my vote: there also has to be a decent reason for it. Like, preventing the disruption of introducing a new character this far in. Or to make it more dramatic. Or (and I hope that every GM has at some point had and learned from this experience) they judging the encounter difficulty wrong and have to make some on the fly negotiations.
I still believe that people only start poll threads to win "most favourites" competitions.
So, the initial results are in, and there appears to be a pretty drastic split.
I was hoping I could say something like, "Fudging is the norm and if you that bothers you, tell the GM before the game you don't want any special protection."
Or maybe the opposite. "Fudging is a legacy of the time before we had a CR system to make balanced gameplay possible. Nobody really wants it any more."
But there are a similar number of people offended by the idea of the GM deceiving the players as there are offended by the idea that there's anything wrong with the GM deceiving the players.
So my only advice is, tread carefully.
I still believe that people only start poll threads to win "most favourites" competitions.
Shh! I'm trying to beat my current record. ("Casters seem to dominate the game outside of combat" with 48 votes.)
that poll is crazy its an inverted bell curve that is super rare when polling people randomly.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I still believe that people only start poll threads to win "most favourites" competitions.
What is your research on the topic to make such an statement?
You should start a poll about what is the people's opinion before saying that.I'm going to start it for you, so I can get a lot of favorites!
I still believe that people only start poll threads to win "most favourites" competitions.What is your research on the topic to make such an statement?
You should start a poll about what is the people's opinion before saying that.
I'm going to start it for you, so I can get a lot of favorites!
That comment upped your coolness rating by like 5 points.
|
I mean brutally honest. I'm like a -1. I don't want to play a game with a gm that fudges. It boules down to the what do you prefer, game or story, and to what degree. I enjoy, probably to the largest degree, a big down stupid dungeon crawl. I don't need a maguffin, a captive, or some holier than thou mission. I wanna fight the big scary dragons and when the dragon eats me because I rolled to many ones and the gm rolls 20's then that's how it shakes out. Gm fudging to me is like a cheat code that you can put in and say, oh never mind you didn't die cuz reasons.
Now to follow that all up, I'm not saying anyone's wrong for playing however they want. Just because I don't like peas, that doesn't mean everyone has to eat only carrots.
I mean brutally honest. I'm like a -1. I don't want to play a game with a gm that fudges. It boules down to the what do you prefer, game or story, and to what degree. I enjoy, probably to the largest degree, a big down stupid dungeon crawl. I don't need a maguffin, a captive, or some holier than thou mission. I wanna fight the big scary dragons and when the dragon eats me because I rolled to many ones and the gm rolls 20's then that's how it shakes out. Gm fudging to me is like a cheat code that you can put in and say, oh never mind you didn't die cuz reasons.
Now to follow that all up, I'm not saying anyone's wrong for playing however they want. Just because I don't like peas, that doesn't mean everyone has to eat only carrots.
I appreciate the follow up. It goes to show us utility storage items are class acts. .. except maybe gorbacz.. I KEED!! I KEED!!
|
I don't quite fit any of your options.
I want to believe that the GM is not manipulating the outcome other than judging play fairly...if he does fudge, I never want to know, but I don't think it's cheating if he does.
I tell my players that I do not fudge, but rarely I will. I have found that every so often the dice generate a situation that I do not expect and it can make for some interesting twists.
But there are a similar number of people offended by the idea of the GM deceiving the players as there are offended by the idea that there's anything wrong with the GM deceiving the players.
I think though that you may be missing that a lot of people don't think fudging dice, etc. is "lying" to the players. People might be checking the button because "You said you would not do X and then you did X" is frequently upsetting for most values of X, whether it's "fudge the dice" or "eat the last piece of pie". People aren't mad because the last piece of pie was eaten, they were mad that the person broke their word. Sometimes I get upset at people (including potentially whoever's GMing that night) if I ask them to bring back the book I loaned them, they say they will, and they don't. If I didn't ask them to bring back the book, obviously I'm not going to be upset when they didn't bring it back.
If you never say anything like "I'm not going to fudge dice" then you're not lying to anybody if or when you do.
Or at least, I think if your assumption was "fudging is always lying to players" that's not a universally held assumption and was an option loaded with your own biases.
Seems like the separate questions about "how do you feel about transparency" and "how do you feel about die fudging" are getting conflated there.
I suspect "how do you feel about fudging dice" is going to be something that's has enclaves of firmly held opinion as starkly contrasting as a lot of things like "Do you use miniatures and a grid"?
It's only that in this case one group chooses strong pejorative language to describe the other group's standard practice, so you get a reaction that the "miniatures y/n" thing does not.
It's basically just a clash of norms. Everybody probably understands what the people they play with in real life consider normal and acceptable in the context of the game (if you don't, then find out) and that's what really matters. There's just no expectation that there's some universal sense of normal that everybody everywhere will follow.
I would say "GMs who fudge die rolls are cheaters" is akin to "people who wear shoes indoors are savages" in terms of how it's going to be wholly acceptable to some people, and deeply offensive to others. I mean, the floor in here is really cold in the winter!
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also did not find anything very close to my answer above. My answer would be something like, "I expect my GM to subtly fudge the dice whenever they believe it would contribute to the whole table's fun. A GM who states a policy of never fudging dice obviously has a different idea of fun than I do, and so I probably would not play with. Fudging dice is an expected part of the game unless someone says otherwise, so no discussion is necessary."
I mean, there are basically two questions here:
1) How do you feel about fudging dice
with answers something like "the dice are sacred", "I expect any good GM to do it when they feel it's beneficial or necessary", and "It's fine to do it, or to not do it."
2) What do you expect in terms of transparency
with answers something like "I expect the GM will not fudge unless they say something beforehand", "I expect the GM will fudge unless they say so beforehand", "the GM must bring it up beforehand one way or the other" and "the GM can do what he or she wants, if a player has strong feelings *they* should be the one to bring it up."
#1 and #2 seem kind of identical, so I voted for both. ^-^
gonna have to open a poll for who thinks voting twice on a poll is cheating KC tsk tsk
So, the initial results are in, and there appears to be a pretty drastic split.
I was hoping I could say something like, "Fudging is the norm and if you that bothers you, tell the GM before the game you don't want any special protection."
Or maybe the opposite. "Fudging is a legacy of the time before we had a CR system to make balanced gameplay possible. Nobody really wants it any more."
But there are a similar number of people offended by the idea of the GM deceiving the players as there are offended by the idea that there's anything wrong with the GM deceiving the players.
So my only advice is, tread carefully.
Huh? I don't think your analysis fits your data. Admittedly, I'm poking my head back into the party a little late. Did people change their favorites?
(2) I don't mind the GM fudging rolls as long as I'm warned in advance. -- 10 favorites
(3) I don't mind the GM fudging rolls as long as I never find out about it. & (4) I don't mind minor deceits by the GM, but the dice should be treated as sacred. -- big losers, only 3 favorites between them
(5) I would much prefer to be in a game where the GM fudges to avoid killing my character due to bad luck. -- strong showing, 16 favorites
(6) I am offended by anyone referring to normal GM fudging as "cheating". -- second big winner, 19 favorites
So the way I read the results, by all means fudge the dice to keep from killing a character due to bad luck. Maybe even other reasons, too. Just don't lie and say you don't! Don't put up with anyone calling it cheating, either. It's a bona fide part of the GM's arsenal.
In fact, I'd say that the poll was outstandingly clear.
None of the answers really fit my opinion...
I only fudge if I mess up a encounter design..,and I can understand it when other GMs do the same..,
Otherwise I hate it because it gives the GM too much power over the story. It removes agency from the players...it could make their actions pointless. I mean it suppose to be a cooperative storytelling...at a certain point it becomes just story hour.
Let come what may. If the GM fudges or treats the die as sacred, so be it. GM motives matter more to me. Fudging just to be a jerk is different than to fudge for story purposes or just making mistakes.
That's a very good point. There's a huge difference between "A GM arbitrarily declares some monster is immune to some tactic the PCs have been making effective use of" and "a GM makes sure that lucky crit doesn't kill a lot level character" are completely different things in terms of the intended impact on the game.