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Flat-footed AC is an important AC for conditions that deny your Dexterity bonus to AC. To remove flat-footed AC, you would have to remove all conditions that deny your Dex bonus, which has big consequences. There's some classes (like the rogue) and abilities that revolve around it. Removing this nerfs such abilities, nerfs the advantage of getting the jump on your opponent, and nerfs conditions where it occurs. I honestly think it's too integral to the game to remove without major issues.
Touch attacks were invented mostly to allow spellcasters to hit AC with attack roll spells. If you remove touch AC, you would need to replace touch attacks with something else. You could make a rule where touch attacks use HD/character level as the BAB. However, any such replacement likely wouldn't make the game simpler.
Honestly, I don't think you gain much from removing AC types, and you end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think a better approach is streamlining circumstances for which you lose dexterity bonus to AC. For example, say that it only happens when flat-footed, attacked by an enemy with total concealment, or a status condition (like Stunned) inflicts it. Many people forget you lose your Dex bonus to AC when you climb.
He could just add circumstantial bonuses to make up for "getting the jump" and other abilities that revolve around that.
Same with Magic - give a bonus "just because its magic."
If the main worry is about auto-hit with firearms, I'd actually suggest just homeruling that firearms hit at Normal AC instead of Touch AC and not mess with the rest.
I agree with Cyrad that touch and flat-footed AC are both important and come up pretty frequently in my games. Creatures are flat-footed on the first round of combat, until they act, which is very important to rogues, and ray/touch spells would lose a lot of their potency without touch AC.
It sounds to me like your real concern may be with guns using touch AC, so you may want to consider making some change to guns rather than to the AC system. Perhaps you could have guns only overcome a limited amount of armor based on the gun's base damage dice or something.
Historically, there is reason that traditional armor started to go out of fashion as guns became better. Since Pathfinder is built on the assumption that armor gives good protection, so you may have to modify things a little.
Good luck.
Rather than getting rid of touch and flat-footed AC, if you want a gun-intensive campaign, the best thing you can do is change the way guns work. Unless...
- you could use the alternate Armor as Damage Reduction system from Ultimate Combat. This kind of does what you're asking, since there is now a single "defense" score that replaces AC.
- or, you could houserule that guns simply don't use touch AC at all. Or that they use touch AC only within their first range increment, and that no feat, class ability, spell or other effect can extend that.
Personally, I don't like guns in my fantasy. But if I were to decide to have a pirate-era game, or a wild west-era game, the very first thing I would houserule would be reloading times. Reloading muzzle-loading firearms should take multiple full-round actions, and special class abilities or feats might be able to bring that down to a single full-round action, but no further. IMHO the fast reloading rates in PF are too fast even for sixguns and rifles.
This said, doesn't it seem fairly intuitive that critters as big as a barn can be hit easily by firearms?
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Consider my firearm rules rework if firearms are your concern. In these rules, firearms do not target touch AC. However, they don't misfire unless damaged and they add Dexterity modifier to damage rolls as an innate feature. You can create a Western campaign by using these rules, reducing the proficiency barrier, and make advanced firearms cheap enough for purchase at character creation.
Personally, I don't like guns in my fantasy. But if I were to decide to have a pirate-era game, or a wild west-era game, the very first thing I would houserule would be reloading times. Reloading muzzle-loading firearms should take multiple full-round actions, and special class abilities or feats might be able to bring that down to a single full-round action, but no further. IMHO the fast reloading rates in PF are too fast even for sixguns and rifles.
This is one of those classic realism-vs.-playability issues.
Realistically, hit points are stupid. One good thrust with a sword will kill almost anyone or anything. The idea that I can get a critical hit against a dragon and do less than 5% of its hit points is counterrealistic. But players don't like combat being that swingy, and they particularly don't like exposing their characters to that kind of risk, which is part of why hit point based systems have totally dominated in the marketplace. They're simply more fun when you know that your character is more survivable and when combats are predictably longer and more dramatic.
Guns raise the same issue, only worse. You can do a lot of risk mitigation in a system like GURPS that allows skill-based defenses; by parrying your opponents' sword, you can keep yourself alive and (eventually) carve Conan-like through hordes of mooks. But you can't parry a bullet. You can't even armor yourself against one.
So combat in a realistic firearm game would basically be -- I shoot, and if I hit his touch AC, he makes a Fort save or falls over, incapacitated. The ultimate save-or-suck. If I miss,... well, I either draw another pistol (there's a reason pirates carried them in six-packs) or only then do we see sword combat. Again, that's not the type of feeling most FRPG players want.
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This will definitely not simplify things but it could add an interesting dynamic. In a gunslinger filled world like the old west convert armor's to body armor/Kevlar. attacks that hit with full AC deal normal damage. Attacks that miss Touch AC Miss outright, Attacks that hit Touch AC but do not hit full AC are stopped by the body armor and deal 1/2 non lethal dmg.
So combat in a realistic firearm game would basically be -- I shoot, and if I hit his touch AC, he makes a Fort save or falls over, incapacitated. The ultimate save-or-suck. If I miss,... well, I either draw another pistol (there's a reason pirates carried them in six-packs) or only then do we see sword combat. Again, that's not the type of feeling most FRPG players want.
My only solution to that problem is to have more realistic statblocks going at it. Just about every real world task, from my knowledge, can be accomplished with first level NPCs. When your average statblock has around 4-5 health, it's definitely less of a problem. A lot of this issue comes from the common misconception that anyone that's competent in anything must have levels, hence is why you see your typical swordsman having more hit points than a Rhinoceros' in Pathfinder.
Something that is possible to do is to replace the effects of these conditions/situations.
Flat-Footed: -2 AC, enables abilities like Sneak Attack.
Touch Attack: Casters add their caster level to touch attack rolls. (Yes, touch attack is that awesome at higher levels).
One easy way to remove conditionals is the 5e approach: Flatfooted (or whatever) gives you adventage, so you roll 2d20 and use the higher.
I'm thinking about having just a straight AC for my next game as part of simplifying things, but am wondering the long term implications. Can anyone think of game-breaking or just unfin repercussions please?
Note: the game will be a Spaghetti Western style Kingmaker so lots of guns, both good and bad guys. I'm mostly worried that all the large+ monsters will just be automatically hit.
If you're doing a Spaghetti Western, that also means that players won't be going around with armor either.
If you're doing a Spaghetti Western, that also means that players won't be going around with armor either.I'm thinking about having just a straight AC for my next game as part of simplifying things, but am wondering the long term implications. Can anyone think of game-breaking or just unfin repercussions please?
Note: the game will be a Spaghetti Western style Kingmaker so lots of guns, both good and bad guys. I'm mostly worried that all the large+ monsters will just be automatically hit.
But assuming it's a fantasy spaghetti western, Dragons (or giant desert worms, or whatever monster you use) have a stron AC and a pitiful Touch attack, by default, because they tend to be huge or bigger, which means a negative number in size, and have humongous str and con, but bad to meh Dex.
If you remove gun's touch attack, then remove the misfire too. They are basically supposed to balance each other.
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I was just thinking that 5E has only plain AC, what if we did it.The reasons this works in 5e are:
- Everyone gets the same 'BAB',
- Nearly everyone uses their class's 'primary' stat on attack rolls, and
- 5e was basically built around only having one AC.
Basically, you don't need 'touch AC' when your fighter's sword swing and your warlock's eldritch bolt have basically the same chance to hit.
If you have guns hitting regular AC, the question your players should ask is 'why does anyone use guns?' Unless you give 'dex to dmg' as a default, Chakrams and Atl-Atls are probably superior 'up close' if you have an above average strength, and bows might still rule at range, which might ruin the flavor you are going for...
Sounds like a bad idea, rogues get ruined, feinting is pointless and casters with rays and touch attacks never hit anything ever again. Off the top of my head.
I was just thinking that 5E has only plain AC, what if we did it.The reasons this works in 5e are:
- Everyone gets the same 'BAB',
- Nearly everyone uses their class's 'primary' stat on attack rolls, and
- 5e was basically built around only having one AC.
Basically, you don't need 'touch AC' when your fighter's sword swing and your warlock's eldritch bolt have basically the same chance to hit.If you have guns hitting regular AC, the question your players should ask is 'why does anyone use guns?' Unless you give 'dex to dmg' as a default, Chakrams and Atl-Atls are probably superior 'up close' if you have an above average strength, and bows might still rule at range, which might ruin the flavor you are going for...
Improving the casters chance to hit with Scorching Ray or Desintegrate is easy, tho. Use Caster Level to hit with spells.
If you want them to use six shooters, I'd use "guns everywhere" rule. Guns cost 1/4, gunslingers gain Dex to Damage at lvl 1, and maybe everyone should get dex to damage at lvl 5.
I used a "guns everywhere" ruleset for my Iron Gods campaign, and it worked, for a while. People used guns more, but once you pass lvl 7 or so, if you don't add DEX to damage, they are pretty pointless. And those are Laser guns, and improved (over the basic rules) laser guns, for that matter.
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Historically, there is reason that traditional armor started to go out of fashion as guns became better. Since Pathfinder is built on the assumption that armor gives good protection, so you may have to modify things a little.
I researched this a while back, and it's basically a myth. Armor never really fell out of popularity, we just have a preconception of the medieval knight in shining armor. Most soldiers in medieval armies couldn't afford armor like that, but those who could afford it kept using it right into the 19th century. Even then it was more cannons and artillery that made it obsolete. Then there's the issue that longbows and crossbows had similar penetration power to contemporary muskets; the advantage of the musket wasn't power, but rather the simple fact that reloading a crossbow or firing a longbow would quickly fatigue a soldier. A musket user remained fresh for melee, which was a game-changer.
Now this isn't to say that firearms didn't have an effect on armor design and usage, but the interaction had more to do with evolving military tactics than simple penetration power. If that was all there is to it, plate armor would have been obsolete centuries before muskets even appeared due to improving bows and crossbows.
Consider my firearm rules rework if firearms are your concern. In these rules, firearms do not target touch AC. However, they don't misfire unless damaged and they add Dexterity modifier to damage rolls as an innate feature. You can create a Western campaign by using these rules, reducing the proficiency barrier, and make advanced firearms cheap enough for purchase at character creation.
Good to see some free firearm rules reworks out there. ;)
Pathfinder becomes dumpdex fullplatefinder.
I did something that was functionally similar in a game a couple years ago, I gave each class a "defense rating" that scaled with level/HD like BAB, and this rating was part of touch AC, the result being that most creatures had nearly as much touch AC as regular.
I honestly didn't have any problem from that, but I also didn't have anyone playing a touch spell dependant caster. It was nice and cinematic for armor to be optional.