|
]
If you finish the sentence from your own source...
By extension, the term is also applied to related acts of sprinkling, dousing, or smearing a person or object with any perfumed oil, milk, butter, or other fat.
PS: note to self that it only works on wounded creatures, and NOT as a preventative measure... muhahahhahIf you're going to house rule the spell just house rule the spell already
Nah... my group playing HV need it for their evil PCs... it's just good to know it has limitations and comes at a price.
|
Incorrect. You can't anoint, in ancient terms, a being by the tablespoon. The spell says "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water" and anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body (wiki ref.)A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
And yet it specifically calls for a drop of devil's blood, which certainly isn't a flask full.
Nor are either devil's blood or unholy water "aromatic oils", so something is already off about that specific definition.
I dunno, you could probably drown a halfling with a drop of Advodaza's blood :3
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
Incorrect. You can't anoint, in ancient terms, a being by the tablespoon. The spell says "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water" and anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body (wiki ref.)
PS: note to self that it only works on wounded creatures, and NOT as a preventative measure... muhahahhah
you can anoint the parson's head with a soppn worth of whatever you're using for ointment, no need to use a whole jar like the Magdalene did for Jesus...
Nah... my group playing HV need it for their evil PCs... it's just good to know it has limitations and comes at a price.
The price is your soul. The cost and the limitation are of your own creation. The target is one creature, not one wounded creature.
I dunno, you could probably drown a halfling with a drop of Advodaza's blood :3
The size of a drop of fluid is essentially a function of surface tension and viscosity (which oppose forces like gravity and shearing forces from air or another medium). This means, for example, that if a drop of something falls from very high up, it will eventually shear off into multiple drops (this happens with rain).
So my questions are
- Is Advodaza blood more viscous than other devil blood?
- Can I conserve devil blood by climbing a ladder or flying far up in the sky?
I'm also wondering if there's an optimal ratio of devil's blood mixed with unholy water that would make the spell function while having the lowest total materials cost.
I'm wondering if this is an opportunity to force arcane casters to do optimization problems (and some people say they'd never actually use Calculus...)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Incorrect. You can't anoint, in ancient terms, a being by the tablespoon. The spell says "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water" and anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body (wiki ref.)A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
And yet it specifically calls for a drop of devil's blood, which certainly isn't a flask full.
Nor are either devil's blood or unholy water "aromatic oils", so something is already off about that specific definition.
[Purple Dragon Knight] Stop cheating you evilbad person! The rules clearly say that it costs 1000 gp to cast the spell a single time! Why are you such an evil, stupid cheater?![/Purple Dragon Knight]
|
|
Nah... my group playing HV need it for their evil PCs... it's just good to know it has limitations and comes at a price.The price is your soul. The cost and the limitation are of your own creation. The target is one creature, not one wounded creature.
I also use the text part of the spell in my games. :P
|
|
[Purple Dragon Knight] Stop cheating you evilbad person! The rules clearly say that it costs 1000 gp to cast the spell a single time! Why are you such an evil, stupid cheater?![/Purple Dragon Knight]
Bucket list #345 achieved: Have someone channel/quote you to represent angry by-the-book Japanese-German ruleslawyerism
(breathes.... ahhhhh... I can go back to softballing GM style now...)
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also use the text part of the spell in my games. :P
no, you twist the text to a desired end while smugly insisting that you're the only one playing the game right. It's bad exegesis and it's bad posting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?A lot of people aren't really cool with being anointed and infused with pure liquid evil.
Interesting question, tho, is if that happens at all with the wand.
The liquid pure evil is the material compoent of the spell (either unholy water, or blood from a devil). But wands don't have, or use, material compoents.
So the point of annointing someone with whatever, is kinda pointless. Maybe with the spell being cast, you have to bath them in blood, Carrie-style. Who knows.
The wand, however, does not need material components. And it's the wand what's being used all the time, as it's the wand the economically efficient.
The liquid pure evil is the material compoent of the spell (either unholy water, or blood from a devil). But wands don't have, or use, material compoents.
Blood seeping out of the wand as it's used to annoint people would be pretty thematic.
Here is a big conflict with the Horror Adventures aligned casting rules people have(along with how many casts cause an alignment switch). There, it states performing an evil act with good intentions is still an evil act. Thus, casting a good spell for an evil reason is a good act. Actions trump intent.Performing an evil act for good means is still an evil act, but the reverse is not true.
Honestly, it's pretty simple:
It's easier to be evil than to be good
Intent matters, but the ends do not justify the means.
Evil means, evil intent: Evil action.
Evil means, good intent: Evil action.
Good means, evil intent: Evil action.
Good means, good intent: Good action.Being good is supposed to be an uphill battle... just like in the real world.
Maybe it's supposed to be, but that's not how the rules for aligned spells work. A couple of castings of a spell moves you towards that alignment, regardless of the spell.
That's my basic problem with the rule. It's too symmetrical and it shouldn't be. Corruption from using evil magic is a common genre trope. Purification by using good magic isn't.
Rule Zero: As the GM, if an official rule isn't making your game more fun (for you or for your players), ignore it or change it as you see fit. I happen to beleive that the fewer rules around alignment, the better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Blood seeping out of the wand as it's used to annoint people would be pretty thematic.The liquid pure evil is the material compoent of the spell (either unholy water, or blood from a devil). But wands don't have, or use, material compoents.
But the act of annointing someone with the wand would need the ability to move your hands and use somatic components, which the rules for wand do not require.
I suppose you could insist on it, if you really want to chirp on your players for using it, but in that case, it's pretty easier to just remove the spell, which is your prerogative as a GM as well. I don't allow Aroden's spell bane or Emergency Force Sphere, so anyone could do the same with Infernal Healing if they want.
Sounds like a bit of incoherent, in my opinion, to make Infernal Healing wands drip the material component, but don't make stoneskin wands to drip diamond dust, wands of fireball spit bat guano, or wands of haste grow licorice root. YMMV of course, and everybody can rule it as they want in their games.
The problem here is PFS. And in PFS, the wand of infernal healing:
1) is not an evil act, per PFS rules
2) does not drop blood, per spell activation items rules.
I feel like just as it's incredibly appropriate and flavorful for the spell to have been created by forces of Hell in order to tempt people to resorting to evil as a matter of expedience (paving the road with good intentions, as it were), it's similarly appropriate to allow the means to avoid any actual corruption or evil via exploiting a loophole (such as a wand that casts the spell without any evil fluids involved, or another means to skip the material component.)
Devils are pretty big on loopholes, after all, and "I cheated the devil" is a repeating theme in heroic fiction. This does, however, motivate the forces of Hell to take a particular interest in you, but you can win these deals from time to time (though I still think the Devil won that fiddle contest.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Blood seeping out of the wand as it's used to annoint people would be pretty thematic.The liquid pure evil is the material compoent of the spell (either unholy water, or blood from a devil). But wands don't have, or use, material compoents.
Would nearby casters be able to sop up the blood to replenish their component pouches? Maybe that's why there's no component cost for demon blood to begin with! (I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)
|
So, only a single act of torture can make you go from Good to Neutral and Neutral to Evil, while it takes two [evil] spells to go from Good to Neutral and three [evil] spells to go from Neutral to Evil...unless you're sacrificing a sentient creature, of course. Amusingly, the sidebar on evil spells says things like 'typically' and 'almost always', while also clarifying it's advice, while the torture section has no such clarifications.True, I should have used a lesser evil as my example. The point still stands though.Well, if your point was that aligned spells are stronger than 'mundane' actions, it seems to be incorrect. I think the main problem, if anything, is that spells can have the evil descriptor, but other, non-spell actions (whether something as supernatural as creating a golem, or more mundane actions such as killing someone you perhaps didn't need to kill) lack such descriptors. Torture is one of the few that does have the consequences clearly laid out...
Must admit, was also surprised to hear that some people don't view a dose of unholy water as being the same as a flask. But then again, for a long time some have claimed that casting a spell with the evil descriptor isn't evil, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...
Yah, okay. Except I know exactly who inspired the 2 casts and your neutral, 3 more and you're evil idea from HA(That's how he runs his personal games). And his view is exactly that casting aligned spells is much stronger than normal aligned actions.
There are two specific exceptions to the general rule(sacrifice and torture.. murder may be included here but it is not explicit to my knowledge). That does not overturn the general idea that it takes a collection of mundane actions but spell casting moves your alignment quickly. But, yah, totally pulled out of my own butt. Has no basis whatsoever.
You know, not liking something is not the same as making it not happen.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
Incorrect. You can't anoint, in ancient terms, a being by the tablespoon. The spell says "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water" and anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body (wiki ref.)
PS: note to self that it only works on wounded creatures, and NOT as a preventative measure... muhahahhah
I mean... you really don't care about facts at all, do you? Anointing something can be as simple as sticking a thumb in some oil and pressing it against someones forehead. You don't require pints, gallons or barrels of fluid to do the job.
You lose all credibility by using tactics like this.
Of course, "trying to cheat the devil and having it backfire" is also a common trope.
As for the wand, the evil fluids are still involved, even if they don't drip out of it. They're put into the wand or otherwise used in the process of making it.
I think the cleave for "gets away with cheating the devil" and "tries to cheat the devil and it backfires" is along the lines of "who is the hero in this story." Or at least the form of the backfiring is less "eternal damnation" for heroes and more "has more obstacles to overcome as a result".
So PCs probably should not suffer any repurcussions for using a wand of infernal healing or otherwise eschewing its material cost (ask your GM if the local price of devil blood is <1 gp/drop), but the GM is wholly within her or his rights to use this as a plot hook for "Devils take a particular interest in you."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But the act of annointing someone with the wand would need the ability to move your hands and use somatic components, which the rules for wand do not require.
Nah, just poke them on the forehead with the bloody tip of the wand, bonus points if the end of the wand stamps them propery of asmodeuous while you're at it.
"Why's this glowing under detect evil?
"Its.. ahm.. to let you back in the club?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
They farm colossal dragons to make affordable armor for druids, so why can't they farm devils in the same fashion?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
They farm colossal dragons to make affordable armor for druids, so why can't they farm devils in the same fashion?Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
Given how cheap they are and the sizes of the dragons required to make them my head cannon is that they can be harvested when they shed (sustainably, as druids local 704 would want)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
By all means, keep using infernal healing! It's perfectly safe.
Pay no attention to the fact that casting it requires evil components, that one radiates evil while under its effect, or that it won't heal damage caused by weapons that we devils are succeptable to. That's all just meaningless window-dressing. Giving this spell to mortals has nothing to do with damning the souls of the corruptible.
You can trust me. I'm lawful. I would never lie to you!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What's that, Handsome Devil? You want people to start using more silver and good-aligned weapons so that their opponents' Infernal Healing cannot heal the wounds inflicted? Certainly! We'll get right on that!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, you devils sure are smart. A question, though... Aren't lawful types more likely to follow the rules and not cast the spell while chaotic types are more likely to buck the system and use your spell? Aren't you just fueling the armies of the abyss?
Well, I'm sure you've all thought this through and everything will go as planned...
The problem often seems to be PFS
No. People blame pfs for "Well this is the rule" , as if their dm were the perfect ontological manifestation of Dming rather than a real human being who is going to rule differently than themselves, who are of course the perfect balance of rules, fairness, power, and sense.
Every time an unclear rule sends pfs into *headscratch, well how does this work* territory you can bet that same rule is being argued and debated in home games too: I can remember vehemently disagreeing with my DM on how interupting spells worked in initiative when initiative was rolled with a d10 and the difference got my Owl Killed.
PFS has the "it's not evil" rule explicitly because of the nomadic nature of the players. Unlike some things like the campaign clarifications documents, it's explicitly a house rule made to deal with how much of a PITA it would be to track darkside points. (and PFS's house rule is still better than the train wreck of horror adventuer's three casts rule) It's not responsible if people don't understand why that rule exists.
What's that, Handsome Devil? You want people to start using more silver and good-aligned weapons so that their opponents' Infernal Healing cannot heal the wounds inflicted? Certainly! We'll get right on that!
Or just a +2 weapon, or damage from a creature with DR/silver, as those count as silver weapons too.
|
|
What's that, Handsome Devil? You want people to start using more silver and good-aligned weapons so that their opponents' Infernal Healing cannot heal the wounds inflicted? Certainly! We'll get right on that!Or just a +2 weapon, or damage from a creature with DR/silver, as those count as silver weapons too.
Only for the purposes of DR, not for any other purpose, such as stopping Regeneration or negating Infernal Healing.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Given how cheap they are and the sizes of the dragons required to make them my head cannon is that they can be harvested when they shed (sustainably, as druids local 704 would want)They farm colossal dragons to make affordable armor for druids, so why can't they farm devils in the same fashion?Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
My favourite part of the general non-sense that the material components legacy bring to the table is how materials are supposed to be part of a self-replenishing pouch, unless they have an explicit gold cost.
Alter self requires a part of the body of the stuff you are transforming into.
You are level 2. You level up. You choose alter self. Suddenly your pouch has (several) pieces of body of lizardfolks, sewer trolls, troglodites, ratfolks, and other humanoids that you might or might not be interested to polymorph into.
Next month Paizo publishes a book about humanoids, with some new races, and now your pouch has also pieces of those. Because the spell doesn't say those cost money, and you have any component without monetary cost in your self-replenishing dimemsional pocket component pouch. Best part of it is your component pouch instantly generates those parts of bodies (along with every other component material from spells you choose as you level up) even if in your adventure you are in a wreckage in a desert island, like in Serpent's Skull, or trapped in an Assylum, or traveling in a pirate ship. Wonderful pouch, the component pouch is. Which also happens to instantly teleport stuff to your hand, because taking a vial of acid from your belt to throw it, is a move action, and taking a vial of acid from your belt to cast acidic spray is a free action.
Hey, actually to cast acid pit you take your vial of acid (and extact a drop from it)and a shovel from your ever-expanding self-replenishing dimensional pocket component pouch as a free action.
So as I see it, there are there options.
1)We can simply ignore the elephant on the room that are the material components, (which makes Eschew Materials a dumb feat)
2) we can choose to be selectively blind to some of them while enforcing some others, like ignoring the shovel you have to carry (in your spell pouch, otherwise it's not a free action to retrieve it) for pit spells or the collection of humanoid body parts for alter self, while enforcing the devil blood for Infernal healing
3) or we can choose to totally mess with spellcasters by forcing them to collect said components and track a huge list of them, many of which are kinda heavy when you start to pack a bunch of them.
Only for the purposes of DR, not for any other purpose, such as stopping Regeneration or negating Infernal Healing.What's that, Handsome Devil? You want people to start using more silver and good-aligned weapons so that their opponents' Infernal Healing cannot heal the wounds inflicted? Certainly! We'll get right on that!Or just a +2 weapon, or damage from a creature with DR/silver, as those count as silver weapons too.
I stand corrected
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Along with the trade is such a thing being illicit at best because, y'know, devils...
To build wands of Infernal healing requires only summon monster II (lemures) and a knife, Blood Magic spell and a knife, being a sorcerer, or being a wizard with Eschew material feat.
The game already supposes that somewhere in Golarion there's a factory full of lvl 5 clerics that took the Create Wand feat to fill the world with wands of CLW. It's not that hard of an assumption to think that in some other factory from the competitor emporium of wands of healing, there is a wing full of wizards who took both craft wands and eschew material, and craft wands of infernal healing with a seal that reads "no devil was harmed to craft this wand". It would sell more than Coca-Cola.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
4) It's a Batman's toolbelt kind of item. It doesn't actually have infinite space filled with infinite numbers of items. You're constantly filling it up, both with the common things you know you'll need - spiderwebs and sand and stuff like that, as well as some weird things that just might come in handy.
And by the magic of retroactive plot necessity, when you decide it would be useful to be some weird humanoid, you just happened to have picked some up a couple stops back. Sure, you can come up with cases where that makes even less sense, but it's not as ridiculous as you make it sound.
Your 4) is actually my 1). You just ignore the components, and assume you have them, and everything is ok, regardless of the fact that it's not.
You might be able to take spider webs and sand in your off time. I doubt you'll find pieces of the body of troglodytes, ratfolks, sewer trolls and sasquatchs, just in case you need them. Much less you have all of that in your pouch, because having (several, in case you want to repeat the casting) body parts of every single humanoid in existence so you can choose what to transform to in a given moment, would require either a giant's sack, or a Mary Poppins' spell pouch, or a healthy dosis of handwavium, which is exactly my point 1).
Also, "picking up" spider webs might prove to be difficult if you are playing in, say, a frozen wasteland in an artic campaign.
That's not to mention that some of those material componets, such as a shovel, are *kind* of bulky, and you carry a ton of them by the time you are high level. And you need to carry them in your spell pouch if you want to draw them as a free action and part of your standard action to cast the spell, because retrieving a shovel from a backpack is a standard action that provokes. Only retrieving components from a spell pouch is a free action as part of the casting.
So yes, almost every table I know, including PFS, use option 1), or your option 4), which is in fact option 1) too. Which is why I find curious how sometimes they jump into option 2, and blindly choose to ignore some material components, but not other. I have seen plenty of times this argument about the devil's blood in Infernal Healing. Have never seen any GM asking their wizards to carry body parts of dead humanoids to use alter self.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Along with the trade is such a thing being illicit at best because, y'know, devils...To build wands of Infernal healing requires only summon monster II (lemures) and a knife, Blood Magic spell and a knife, being a sorcerer, or being a wizard with Eschew material feat.
The game already supposes that somewhere in Golarion there's a factory full of lvl 5 clerics that took the Create Wand feat to fill the world with wands of CLW. It's not that hard of an assumption to think that in some other factory from the competitor emporium of wands of healing, there is a wing full of wizards who took both craft wands and eschew material, and craft wands of infernal healing with a seal that reads "no devil was harmed to craft this wand". It would sell more than Coca-Cola.
To build wands of Infernal Healing requires a crafter with the spell and costs 750gp worth of materials, plus the cost of the material components (which is under debate here).
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components.
375 gold in materials, actually. That would include the cost of the blood, as it has no listed cost.
The debate here, is that the problem is you need to find the devil's blood, and traffic with that, and the moral and legal implications of that. Not the cost, which is clearly 0, because it says so in the spell. There's also the moral aspect of the devil's blood being needed for the craft, not only for the spell.
Such moral and legal boundaries are just 1 feat away. I don't know which Golarion country has the cheapest labor force so the multinational companies that build Wands en masse for the PC outsources their production there, but wherever it is, the factories there only would need to hire sorcerers or wizards with eschew material, and the requisite of devil's blood is out.
Sure, you could just say that the 375gp cost of crafting the wand, include devil's parts, because it's thematic. On the other hand, you could also say that crafting wands of cure light wounds require unicorn horn, and thus the cure light wound wand mass factory is actually endangering the unicorns worldwide, creating a massacre of good creatures to enrich themselves, and it would be pretty thematic too. And people in Golarion just choose to ignore that, in the same way we all ignore the way people die to mine the coltan that it's needed for our smartphones. But those two cases would depend on how much you want to oppose one or the other spell, and it has nothing to do with the rules themselves.
By the rules, it's an evil spell. Casting evil spells will corrupt you. In PFS, it's not the case. In your home campaign, it might or might not. But if you have problems with this spell in your home campaign, you could just ignore it completely, ban it from your game, put a gold cost to the devil's blood, or change it and call it "rejuvenation", make it a druid spell, with the Good descriptor.
|
Wow, Celestial Healing sucks, I never even noticed how different it was from Infernal Healing... though I'd say that 1 round per 2 levels is still minimum 1, that's still a total waste of a spell slot...
As for the topic as a whole, no we can't ditch the nonsense with Infernal Healing, but YOU can when you are the GM. That's really what it boils down to. The spell exists, it's not going away, but any individual GM can do away with it or make it corrupt you faster or whatever.
Why is it required that the caster can Alter Self into every possible humanoid, even ones the caster doesn't know about?
The big question is how important flavor is versus power. Since this is a personal choice, the rules cannot make the choice without disenfranchising a large portion of the player base. Thus, we wave our hands.
Since no faction of the player base is sufficient to keep Pathfinder going, everyone is going to find things that don't suit.
Edit, since I don't and won't do PFS, I don't care who wins in that venue.