Can we ditch the nonsense with infernal healing yet?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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For a while I was fine with the evil tag on infernal healing. Giving arcane casters access to healing magic via a malign bargain with evil forces was thematically appropriate.

Everyone bought wands of infernal healing instead of CLW anyway, because adventuring is a business and nearly doubling the cost-effectiveness of out-of-combat healing is a damn good bargain, devil's blood notwithstanding.

But now, celestial healing exists, permitting UMD-free healing by wizards, magi, etc.

It's just that it's strictly worse mechanically unless cast at CL 20, though you won't be chastised by paladins for using it.

Was there something wrong with the divine-exclusive vigor spells from 3.5? I know they're technically closed content, but the core concept was simple:

A level 1 cleric/druid touch spell gave a living creature fast healing 1 for 1 minute + 1 round/level (capping out at 15 rounds at CL 5).
A level 3 cleric/druid touch spell gave a living creature fast healing 2 for 1 minute + 1 round/level (capping out at 25 rounds at CL 15).
A level 5 cleric/druid touch spell gave a living creature fast healing 4 for 1 minute + 1 round/level (capping out at 35 rounds at CL 25).

Would it be wrong to just introduce this item into the campaign?

Phyzer's rod of withstanding travails
Price: 300 gp
Aura: faint conjuration
CL: 1st
Weight: 1/2 lb
This unadorned, perfectly straight, hollow metal rod has a screw-cap on one end. Unscrewing the cap is always a move action, but screwing it back on tightly enough to engage its magical abilities requires 8 hours. While open, any number of platinum, gold, silver, and copper coins can be placed in the rod. When the cap is replaced, the coins disappear, and for every 1.5 gp worth of coins placed in the hollow, the rod gains 1 charge. The charges remain indefinitely until expended, and there is no limit to the number of charges the rod can hold. By speaking the command word and touching it to themselves or another creature, the rod's wielder can expend one charge to heal the target of one hit point of damage. Only creatures with levels in an arcane, divine, or psychic spellcasting class (or those who succeed on a DC 20 Use Magic Device check) can activate the rod. If a creature activates the rod via Use Magic Device, they can expend a total of 10 charges before needing to make another check when activating the rod.
When created, new Phyzer's rods of withstanding travails have no charges. The item's resale value is half its base price plus 0.75 gp per charge.
Construction Requirements: . . . Cost 150 gp
Craft Rod, cure light wounds

.

.

Or, perhaps more elegantly, bring back cure minor wounds, but with a material component worth 1.5 gp?


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What are you talking about? People use Wands of Infernal Healing all the time in PFS without people batting the eye.


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You do realize that a standard wand of Celestial Healing doesn't actually do anything.

With a caster level of 1, the spell has a duration of 0 rounds. The wizard would need a caster level of 20 to equal what a 1st level caster can do with Infernal Healing


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PFS has a ruling that lets you use evil spells without them changing your alignment...

UNLESS they violate some code, oath, or tenant of faith. While paizo has (despite numerous letters) refused to reveal all 101 drunken slurings of calden cayden , i'm pretty sure most good deities are NOT okay with you dipping into the forces of evil without an extremely good reason.

"The profit margin on adventuring" is a great rationale for a cleric of abadar. A cleric of iomadae not so much

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Um, Wizards/Sorcerers and Magi can use wands of Infernal Healing without UMD, it's on their spell list too.

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
i'm pretty sure most good deities are NOT okay with you dipping into the forces of evil without an extremely good reason.

Something something Succubi...


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Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
i'm pretty sure most good deities are NOT okay with you dipping into the forces of evil without an extremely good reason.
Something something Succubi...

Look, the "attempt at redemption" excuse started to wear thin after the fifth or sixth time...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Unscrewing the cap is always a move action, but screwing it back on tightly enough to engage its magical abilities requires 8 hours.

Wow, 8 hours of slowly tightening a cap? That's harsh. :)

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
i'm pretty sure most good deities are NOT okay with you dipping into the forces of evil without an extremely good reason.
Something something Succubi...
Look, the "attempt at redemption" excuse started to wear thin after the fifth or sixth time...

That's why they come in Xtra durable.

And ribbed.


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Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
i'm pretty sure most good deities are NOT okay with you dipping into the forces of evil without an extremely good reason.
Something something Succubi...

Don't mind if I do! buries face


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it's for a home game, just dump Infernal Healing. Really, it's right up there at the top of the list of things that shouldn't exist.

If it's for PFS, well... suck it up. There's no putting that genie back in the bottle.

I mean, your players will get on fine with wands of Cure Light Wounds. They don't need to juggle doses of demon blood and their delicate ethics. After all, you don't let them use Sacred Geometry either, do you? <g>


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If it's a home game, rename Infernal Healing to Monstrous Healing, and change the blood required to Troll blood (and obviously drop the unholy water and evil tag).


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Simpler. Errata the spell out of existence.


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Where's the spell from?

Grand Lodge

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People at the table have gotten mad at me refusing an offer of infernal healing. It's really awkward too.

"Oh, our healing not good enough for you eh? Your blue blood just can't take our pleb medicine, huh?"

"I'm a cleric of Serenrae, I'll just use my cure ligh-"

"Wrong! Wrong economic answer!!"

I think the wand should stay in the game but there should be 1 point of con damage after its use.


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captain yesterday wrote:
Where's the spell from?

Infernal Healing is from the Inner Sea World Guide.

Shadow Lodge

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Jader7777 wrote:
People at the table have gotten mad at me refusing an offer of infernal healing. It's really awkward too.

And stupid.


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While the attacks on your original point are a little rudely phrased in places (also quite accurate in places), I wish to sidestep that discussion entirely and address something completely different:

I very much like that magic item. It is clever, original, and will confuse and confound the PCs. I'm gonna use it. Thanks.


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Jader7777 wrote:

"Oh, our healing not good enough for you eh? Your blue blood just can't take our pleb medicine, huh?"

"I'm a cleric of Serenrae, I'll just use my cure ligh-"

"Wrong! Wrong economic answer!!"

By the LAW (Laws as Written) it is incredibly unmerciful and selfish to refuse healing to/from teammates in need, since that means you have a much lesser chance of surviving to do good in the world and thus are violating your clerical code of conduct , also known as the CCoC. It is a far more variable but much less flexible form of the paladin code of ethics , or the PCoE. This code must be followed by all clerics of good aligned gods, or they immediately fall and are also never allowed to retrain or multiclass. This is to ensure a THOROUGH PUNISHMENT FOR YOUR MISDEEDS.

But, also by LAW, it is very evil to accept infernal healing in the first place, as you just pumped into your body devil blood!

So it looks like either way YOU'RE COMING WITH ME, BUB.

Grand Lodge

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Why, why couldn't I be born neutral?! Why did I have to grow tall and strong only to end up good?!


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
paizo has (despite numerous letters) refused to reveal all 101 drunken slurings of calden cayden ,

The REAL problem with Paizo today.


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Goddity wrote:


I very much like that magic item. It is clever, original, and will confuse and confound the PCs. I'm gonna use it. Thanks.

I also thought the magic item was well done.

The OP should submit it for the next contest.


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Paladin Falls Enforcement Squad wrote:
{. . .}

Had to fave just for awesome avatar name and concept.

* * * * * * * *

I wish they had run with the original concept of Infernal Healing to make a story out of it, like the reason it is [Evil] is that not only does it draw upon Infernal power (should also be [Lawful]), but it also causes wounds to close up with noticeably Fiendish flesh. This would also explain the original lack of a corresponding Celestial Healing, because Good Outsiders and other Celestial residents wouldn't want you to grow Celestial flesh, since that would run the risk of causing mortals to be taken over with Celestial flesh without necessarily gaining any moral benefit and with some risk of the opposite; Devils and Asmodeus (and other Evil Outsiders and deities, if they could get their hands on this technology) would have no such qualms, so they developed it and the Celestials didn't.

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TOZ wrote:
Jader7777 wrote:
People at the table have gotten mad at me refusing an offer of infernal healing. It's really awkward too.
And stupid.

Strange to be mad at someone for roleplaying the flavor of a spell in a roleplaying game.

Grand Lodge

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I think Infernal healing is a great spell, and I really wish that it's flavor wasn't watered down in PFS with the whole "evil spells aren't really evil" ruling that they have.

Half of the point of the spell is that there is possible corruption involved in it's use, but it's so very effective... and cheap, that the temptation is there for everyone to use it.

Grand Lodge

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Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

A lot of people aren't really cool with being anointed and infused with pure liquid evil.

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While i dig the flavor, I don't think infernal healing and celestial healing were well thought out. Especially celestial healing, which has no effect at 1st level and has a material component that is arguably more evil.

In my games, I'd just replace the spells with a spell that gives fast healing 1 for 5 rounds.


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Sometimes flavor ruins an otherwise good ability. Fey Foundling has resulted in a near epidemic of Paladins being raised by fey. Why are the fey raising so many children to become Paladins anyway?

Silver Crusade

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Melkiador wrote:
Sometimes flavor ruins an otherwise good ability. Fey Foundling has resulted in a near epidemic of Paladins being raised by fey. Why are the fey raising so many children to become Paladins anyway?

We're gonna disagree on flavor ruining things.

Plus your example doesn't seem like a ruined ability to me :3


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Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

Using it on an unconscious paladin was amusing.

The player completely flipped out.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Sometimes flavor ruins an otherwise good ability. Fey Foundling has resulted in a near epidemic of Paladins being raised by fey. Why are the fey raising so many children to become Paladins anyway?

We're gonna disagree on flavor ruining things.

Plus your example doesn't seem like a ruined ability to me :3

I'd call this unintended flavor. Imagine a world where the fey purposely keep creating potential paladins so they good gods have enough champions to fight the evil champions. Thus helping keep the eternal war between good and evil brewing... so the gods continue to keep their noses out of the First World.

Scarab Sages

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Snowlilly wrote:
Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

Using it on an unconscious paladin was amusing.

The player completely flipped out.

Eh, it's fun when a character flips out. Not so much when a player does it.


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Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Sometimes flavor ruins an otherwise good ability. Fey Foundling has resulted in a near epidemic of Paladins being raised by fey. Why are the fey raising so many children to become Paladins anyway?

We're gonna disagree on flavor ruining things.

Plus your example doesn't seem like a ruined ability to me :3

I'd call this unintended flavor. Imagine a world where the fey purposely keep creating potential paladins so they good gods have enough champions to fight the evil champions. Thus helping keep the eternal war between good and evil brewing... so the gods continue to keep their noses out of the First World.

Are you sure they aren't trying to deplete the forces of Evil so that they have a decent shot at conquering the multiverse with the Tane?

Scarab Sages

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The Sideromancer wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Sometimes flavor ruins an otherwise good ability. Fey Foundling has resulted in a near epidemic of Paladins being raised by fey. Why are the fey raising so many children to become Paladins anyway?

We're gonna disagree on flavor ruining things.

Plus your example doesn't seem like a ruined ability to me :3

I'd call this unintended flavor. Imagine a world where the fey purposely keep creating potential paladins so they good gods have enough champions to fight the evil champions. Thus helping keep the eternal war between good and evil brewing... so the gods continue to keep their noses out of the First World.
Are you sure they aren't trying to deplete the forces of Evil so that they have a decent shot at conquering the multiverse with the Tane?

Step 1

Step 2
Plan falling into chaotic disarray
Step 4
Profit


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Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect?

Yes.

Jader7777 wrote:
Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

It isn't that, but I know of a case where it would affect target selection.


Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

I have had a scenario where a paladin is sitting in the bad guys lair (because the bad guy is good at being hidden) and casts detect evil on the party as they enter. The text says something along the lines of "she does not attack the party because she doesn't detect any evil aura's" ... which heavily implied to me that she was going to get her smite on when someone with an evil cookie (ironically, the paladin) walked in. The party HAD used infernal healing but waited for it to wear off before entering.

There's a few with an inquisitor or paladin or someone similar checking the party out. There's also one with an angel that would make it kind of hard.

Shadow Lodge

Cyrad wrote:
Strange to be mad at someone for roleplaying the flavor of a spell in a roleplaying game.

Indeed, quite strange to have a problem with the player for a characters decision.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

I have had a scenario where a paladin is sitting in the bad guys lair (because the bad guy is good at being hidden) and casts detect evil on the party as they enter. The text says something along the lines of "she does not attack the party because she doesn't detect any evil aura's" ... which heavily implied to me that she was going to get her smite on when someone with an evil cookie (ironically, the paladin) walked in. The party HAD used infernal healing but waited for it to wear off before entering.

There's a few with an inquisitor or paladin or someone similar checking the party out. There's also one with an angel that would make it kind of hard.

My PFS magus radiates a constant aura of evil due to a certain ioun stone that he implanted.

Both times something like this has come up, the DM gave me a disgusted look and hand-waved the encounter. Something about it disrupting the scenario for everyone else.


Cyrad wrote:

While i dig the flavor, I don't think infernal healing and celestial healing were well thought out. Especially celestial healing, which has no effect at 1st level and has a material component that is arguably more evil.

In my games, I'd just replace the spells with a spell that gives fast healing 1 for 5 rounds.

I like that, i'd also take it further and make it an arcane spell and make it have to do with time (also with a drawback that if you are the target more than twice a day you start to age)


Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

I have run into three where having that evil aura will get you into deep trouble -- not just from divine types but from monsters as well. There are some that find evil auras tasty.

Hmm

Silver Crusade

Snowlilly wrote:
Jader7777 wrote:
Is there ever a scenario where using it even has a negative effect? Like a bunch of paladins bust into the room detecting evil?

Using it on an unconscious paladin was amusing.

The player completely flipped out.

That is from this week's Glass Cannon Podcast.

A very awkward situation.


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I joined a Kingmaker game where the spell was used liberally, and told the GM, "My character is an aasimar. Is it okay if she gets rip-roaring drunk off the warm rush of infernal blood when it hits her system?"

The GM laughed and okayed it. Months went by without this ever coming up. Finally, the combat happened where Cyanne had the only silver weapon and we were facing a werewolf. In that battle she went down to three hit points, and the witch dived in to hit me with infernal healing. I did the rest of the battle drunk. It was hilarious, especially since it took the rest of the party a few minutes to figure out what happened.

It was a home game, not PFS, so I enjoyed playing with the ramifications of using an evil spell for healing.

Hmm

Grand Lodge

In a home game this spell got a player killed for Role Playing.

(5 player group, Wiz, Pal, cleric, Rogue, Magus) After the fight that the Cleric was down and out. The wiz went over and used the spell to save the Cleric and the Pal took so much offence to this she attacked the party wiz. Seeing this The Magus using his last shock decapitated the Pal. (Crit with more then Pal max hp when he was also already hurt.)

P.S. The cleric and wiz lived with only the Pal forced to make a new toon.


0o0o0 O 0o0o0 wrote:
That is from this week's Glass Cannon Podcast.

I had to Google Glass Cannon Podcast, was not aware of it.

I was talking about a real gaming event that I was in four year ago.


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DeathMvp wrote:
In a home game this spell got a player killed for Role Playing.

Wow, you guys play hardcore...


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Side note -

It seems like it could be exceedingly difficult to obtain a spell component of devil's blood that wouldn't disappear since summoned creatures pop back to their home planes when killed. The inference being that the blood would likewise disappear. The second inference here is that any "componentable" devil blood must have been harvested from a bona fide gated devil that is wholly on this plane of existence, which would be uncommon at best and quite dangerous at worst.


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Zedth wrote:

Side note -

It seems like it could be exceedingly difficult to obtain a spell component of devil's blood that wouldn't disappear since summoned creatures pop back to their home planes when killed. The inference being that the blood would likewise disappear. The second inference here is that any "componentable" devil blood must have been harvested from a bona fide gated devil that is wholly on this plane of existence, which would be uncommon at best and quite dangerous at worst.

Are there no opportunistic Devils hanging out on the material plane of their own free will making deals for their blood? deals that they know will end with the users more devil than mortal? seems pretty in character to me


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*steeples fingers*

You're forgetting the intended flavor, here, my friend. Let's see how deep we can go, mmm?

Whilst in PFS, Infernal Healing does absolutely no harm, in home games, evil spells are still evil. They taunt with their seductive power, their effectiveness, while slowly twisting, turning, warping the soul of those who wield the power and those who willingly receive it. I have absolutely no doubt that, despite whatever the ISWG said, the true source of infernal healing are the devils. After all, adventurers tend to be... morally lax in any case. It shouldn't require more than the promise of respite from taking a day's worth of beatings, slashings, impalings, acid-dousings, soul-drainings, and third-degree burns at an effective rate to tempt them into darkness. It also has the delicious side effect of almost marginalizing the clerics to the oft-though superior wizards. One of the only edges those of the faith had over the masters of the arcane was the ability to heal. And now they have lost that one, arguably most important, exclusive ability, why wouldn't the average party of adventurers simply dump their cleric in favor of another wizard or sorcerer? And so, they lose one of the most consistent moral compasses that they have, allowing them to fall further by the wayside. Indeed, if it wasn't for the blessed Pathfinders and their confounding ability to dodge the subjective moral consequences of their actions, I have no doubt that devils would have a large portion of the adventuring population of Golarion under their thrall with one, two decades at most. So why not supply their own blood? They've gotten used to pain by now, anyways, what's a bit of years of constant lacerations and blood collecting.

*bows out*


Zedth wrote:

Side note -

It seems like it could be exceedingly difficult to obtain a spell component of devil's blood that wouldn't disappear since summoned creatures pop back to their home planes when killed. The inference being that the blood would likewise disappear. The second inference here is that any "componentable" devil blood must have been harvested from a bona fide gated devil that is wholly on this plane of existence, which would be uncommon at best and quite dangerous at worst.

Dangerous, but you can get a lot of blood from one devil.

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