I'm currently working on a new character for an upcoming campaign. I'm not sure what the rest of the party will be playing, but I decided I want to play a rogue-like character capable of some spellcasting to enhance their stealth and sneak attack related abilities. Out of combat I'd like to be the party's "skill monkey" in the sense that I'd like to also be able to perform a myriad of roleplaying tasks the GM might throw at us (for example, social encounters, heists, etc).
I have come up with a shortlist of things that I'd like to incorporate into the character one way or another:
- Has to be able to deal damage both through melee attacks (Dex to damage prefered) and spells (Scorching Ray would be a must since it enables sneak attack damage, but regular blasting spells would also be welcome).
- Has to deal as much damage with sneak attack as possible (without resorting to terrible feats like the one that changes 1s and 2s into 3s when rolling for sneak attack damage).
- Has to be able to reliably trigger the sneak attacks without relying solely on flanking.
- Has to be Int-based so that I have access to a lot of skill points.
I have done some research into the possibilities already, but I'd still like your opinion in case I missed something obvious. So far an Eldritch Scoundrel 4/Arcane Trickster X build sounds the most fun and seems to match my preferences closest. I was planning something like this:
Current build
Race: Elf
15 point buy: STR (7), DEX (19), CON (12), INT (16), WIS (10), CHA (7)
Traits: Reactionary, Magical Lineage
Skills/level: 4 + INT (=7)
Level progression: (I left out the class abilities I consider mostly filler)
1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger)
2: Evasion
3: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Finesse Training (dagger), Sneak Attack (1d6)
4: Vanishing Trick (the ninja talent), Debilitating Injury
At level 4 my character would be able to:
- cast 2nd level arcane spells;
- use Dex to hit and Dex to damage for daggers;
- use sneak attack for 2d6 (max possible for a level 4 character, despite the Eldritch Scoundrel having lower sneak attack progression);
- use Vanishing Trick to become invisible at will as a swift action and trigger a guaranteed sneak attack;
- go into Arcane Trickster from the next level onwards.
The spells I'm most interested in using with this build for the first few levels are:
0th: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Acid Splash (because it's a ranged touch attack and therefore compatible with sneak attack)
1st: Shocking Grasp, Snowball, Color Spray (if my opponents are blinded, I can also make sneak attacks against them)
2nd: Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Cat's Grace, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Sense Vitals
Feats I'm interested in are mostly some metamagic feats like Intensified Spell and Empower Spell (both of which work well with Scorching Ray). Perhaps I could also pick up Extra Rogue Talents via feats.
Issues I have with this build
So far, so good. What's the bad news? If I only stick to the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype, my sneak attack progression isn't optimal, since they only increase the damage at level 7, 11, 15 and 19. That's why I considered going into Arcane Trickster afterwards, seeing as how their sneak attack progression would perfectly align with my build so far. However, the problem with Arcane Trickster is that their BAB progression is significantly worse than the Rogue's.
On the flipside, this progression does make it so I never miss any levels in my arcane caster class, so my spells won't be delayed unnecessarily. As a result I don't have to take the Magical Knack trait, so I can instead pick Reactionary and Magical Lineage (most likely for Scorching Ray).
Are there any obvious alternatives I'm missing here? I'm aware of the popular Wizard 3 / Rogue 1 / Arcane Trickster X progression which has the advantage of opening up level 7+ spells as well, but there are a couple of downsides to this in my opinion:
- Your BAB becomes even worse because of the 3 levels in Wizard;
- You lose Evasion;
- You lose Dex to damage for daggers;
- You lose Debilitating Injury;
- You lose Vanishing Trick;
- You will be 1 level behind on your sneak attack damage;
Obviously the fact that you get faster spell progression and access to higher leveled spells counts for a lot too, but I wanted my build to be more about the rogue aspect of my character than the spellcasting aspect. Also, I have completely fallen in love with the concept behind Vanishing Trick so I really don't want to lose that.
Concrete questions about my build
- What do you guys think of my proposed class/level progression given my intentions for this character?
- Are there any other viable (prestige) classes which give optimal sneak attack AND caster level progression that stack with the ones from the Eldritch Scoundrel? Bonus points if they have 3/4 BAB progression, but I really doubt those exist.
- What other feats would you recommend for this character? I don't think stuff like Piranha Strike or Two Weapon Fighting is worth it... I think what's most important is making sure my attacks hit despite my less than optimal BAB which is what Weapon Focus is for. Anything else?
- Right now I'm prioritizing DEX over INT in my ability scores. Would it be better to do it the other way around? The reason I picked DEX as my primary stat is because it helps with my AC (Eldritch Scoundrels are not proficient with any kind of armor), my to-hit (very important for sneak attacks) and my Reflex saves (which means evasion becomes more helpful). I'm not sure if it's worth to compromise on those things for a higher INT stat, so I'd love some input on this.
I'm sorry for the long post, but in every thread where people ask for advice I always read responses about how the person should give a clear idea of what they actually want with their character, which is why I decided to give you all a very clear picture of how I envision him :-)
Thanks in advance for any help!
Piranha Strike is less useful than Power Attack, and the damage overall is weaker than simply utilizing a one-handed finesse weapon, such as the rapier, and relying on sneak attack. You cannot use the feat with touch attack spells. In addition, your BAB does not increase quickly enough for the feat's damage to increase to a more respectable level. Overall, not a feat worth taking until much later unless you are satisfied with utilizing daggers, two-weapon fighting and taking Deific Obediance (Pharasma). If so, Piranha Strike becomes quite useful.
Combat Casting is a very useful feat for any caster that will be in melee, as well as Deific Obediance (Nethys), which stacks with Combat Casting.
Dampen Presence ensures that your invisibility is never beaten. Otherwise, blindsight will severely weaken your effectiveness.
Instead, use your spellcasting as tools to expand your utility and combat functionality, and focus on increasing your Dexterity, and therefore your accuracy/damage. Consider the Eldritch Scoundrel as a 'wizard's apprentice' or 'utility belt' character. They can functionally carry all the tools and tricks that a wizard is famous for utilizing and put them to better use than the wizard themself in some cases. Paired with another spellcaster, an Eldritch Scoundrel can be an incredible boon for adventuring effectiveness and help alleviate pressure from an arcane caster for providing necessary tools and spells for emergencies, such as Feather Fall, Passwall, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing and Gaseous Form. A well-prepared Eldritch Scoundrel can be impossible to pin down and impossible to impede, and can even utilize God Wizard tactics, such as casting pit spells, summoning monsters and creating walls. Anything that a wizard is capable of achieving, an Eldritch Scoundrel could theoretically replicate.
'In a pinch' describes the class philosophy quite well.
You are the character with everything when it is needed while fully capable of functioning in a variety of capacities.
With the full wizard/sorcerer list, you can utilize an incredible quantity of wands and scrolls. With your own spellcasting, you are able to allow the party wizard to prepare extra damage/control spells by preparing all the utility spells, or add even more of these spells yourself.
With Weapon Finesse+Dex-to-Damage/Shocking Grasp/Snowball+Sneak Attack+Debilitating Injury, you are able to deal respectable amounts of damage while also having tools available to you that allow an Eldritch Scoundrel to deliver these abilities more effectively than a standard rogue.
Your skills are some of the best out of all classes, and Rogue's Edge provide incredible benefits to some of the most powerful skills, including Heal, Stealth, Perception and Disable Device. You are also still able to disable magical traps.
There are few things you cannot do. Rogue, with some prep, is still one of them. Wizard, with prep and resources, is another.
Thank you so much for the extensive feedback, it really helped give me a clearer picture of the archetype and what it's all about. Your advice on the ability scores and feats made a lot of sense as well and I feel like I have a better sense of direction now.
As for your other points, if I understand you correctly, you're basically advising me to stick to an Eldritch Scoundrel and not take any levels in Arcane Trickster. I had considered that, but I initially decided against it. It basically came down to listing the pros of each decision and weighing them against each other.
Pros of the Arcane Trickster
- You get Impromptu Sneak Attack;
- You get better Sneak Attack damage;
- You get Invisible Thief (the way I see it this is basically 9 rounds of guaranteed sneak attacks on all your attacks/spells per day, so in that sense the Arcane Trickster class most definitely does give you additional ways of triggering your sneak attacks);
- You get Surprise Spells (which sounds like one of the most unique and fun abilities in the game, allowing you to cast an Intensified Fireball for 14d6 damage + 7d6 sneak attack damage at level 14);
- You also get some other stuff like ranged legerdemain and tricky spells but those are pretty inconsequential aside from pure roleplaying encounters so I don't really count them as major pros
Pros of the pure Eldritch Scoundrel build
- You get 3 more rogue talents (though you could take feats to get the non-advanced ones even as an arcane trickster)
- You get better BAB progression
- You get rogue's edge
- You also get the level 20 master strike ability but it's doubtful our campaign will go on until 20th level anyway, so this is also rather inconsequential
To me personally, the pros for the Arcane Trickster outweighed the ones of the pure Eldritch Scoundrel build, mostly because it feels more unique and fun to play, and I can still pick up rogue talents through feats if I really want to. That means the only things I really lose out on are BAB (+8/+3 for the Arcane Trickster vs +11/+6+1 for the Eldritch Scoundrel at level 15) and rogue's edge. And if I really wanted to, I could still take a single rogue's edge by just taking 1 more level in Eldritch Scoundrel along the road. Also, after completing the 10 levels for Arcane Trickster I plan on taking any remaining levels (probably just 1 or 2 for our campaign) in Eldritch Scoundrel so eventually I would still get at least 1 unchained skill out of rogue's edge.
That's basically why I decided to go for the Arcane Trickster in the end. Hopefully that made sense, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.
You're making a mistake in dumping Strength and Charisma to 7. Perhaps you could begin with a 17 Dex and/or 15 Int? You'll get that first ability score point at 4th level...
I was also planning on taking the alternate Elven racial trait Forlorn which gives me Skill Focus (Stealth) as a bonus feat at level 1 in exchange for Elven Magic (+2 racial bonus on caster level checks against spell resistance) and Elven Weapon Proficiency. The Weapon Proficiency is completely useless to me, but the +2 racial bonus I'm sort of hesitant to give up...
But the Skill Focus bonus feat sounds particularly nice in this case and opens up more feat slots later. If I really start missing the +2 racial bonus, I could just take Spell Penetration later on and It'd basically be as if I hadn't picked up the alternate racial trait at all. With the added benefit that I now do meet the requirements for all feats that list Skill Focus (Stealth) as a prerequisite.
If your game allows for 3rd Party material the Trickster from Kobold Press is EXACTLY what you're looking for.
For feats I was thinking something like:
1) Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Stealth), Weapon Focus / Improved Initiative
3) Accomplished Sneak Attacker
5) Combat Casting
7) Dampen Presence
9) Intensified Spell
11) Empower Spell
13) Quicken Spell
15) Spell Perfection
17) Spell Penetration
19) Greater Spell Penetration
The only problem with that is this is that it doesn't leave room for a potential Extra Rogue Talent, which sucks because Slow Reactions sounded like a nice one for this build.
You're making a mistake in dumping Strength and Charisma to 7. Perhaps you could begin with a 17 Dex and/or 15 Int? You'll get that first ability score point at 4th level...
Could you explain why I would need Strength and Charisma? The campaign will start at level 3, so I basically start with Dex to damage right off the bat. Charisma I could understand because of how I might want to save it for Disguise and Diplomacy, but even then I think the points are still better spent in Dex and Int.
If your game allows for 3rd Party material the Trickster from Kobold Publishing is EXACTLY what you're looking for.
Thanks for the suggestion, though I'm afraid 3rd party content is off the table.
Ok how about
Lv1 Unchained Rouge + Lv3 Wizard + Arcane Trickster VMC Magus
Use retrain rules to change your lv1 feat to Accomplished Sneak attack at lv3
Pros
1 level behind normal sneak attack from a full wizard
1 level delay sneak attack from full rouge
Can auto sneak attack from magus arcana
Familiar
Spellstrike
Foresight School
Con
Crap BAB
Low fort save
For ranged combat try and get a Mage's Crossbow
A varient of this is replacing the rouge level with 2 levels in Snakebite striker Brawler. This gives a nice boost to Melee and saving throws but delays spellcasting by another level(still better than Eldritch Scoundral)
As for your other points, if I understand you correctly, you're basically advising me to stick to an Eldritch Scoundrel and not take any levels in Arcane Trickster. I had considered that, but I initially decided against it. It basically came down to listing the pros of each decision and weighing them against each other.
The pros and cons aren't necessarily wrong, but they are being applied to the wrong class. What you get out of Arcane Trickster doesn't really benefit the Eldritch Scoundrel all that well, and particularly not for what you want to do with either class. Arcane Tricksters work best when paired with a full caster, and particularly with a sorcerer who is blasting. Let me explain.
Pros of the Arcane Trickster
- You get Impromptu Sneak Attack;
- You get better Sneak Attack damage;
Both of these are functionally not as beneficial as you would hope. The Eldritch Scoundrel isn't concerned about hitting for Sneak Attack as much as a standard rogue is, since most of their built in abilities ride off their spellcasting and the Sneak Attack is there to help benefit that in a much more minor way, usually to apply Debilitating Strike (if this is core rogue, you might as well ignore sneak attack, but this is only a concern for PFS peeps). It is not their major feature anymore, and you should probably stop thinking of the class in terms of being a rogue but as a separate class looking to be a mix of both casting, skill utility and stabbing for debuffs. Think of it like the opposite of the magus, a class which is more concerned about blasting for huge swathes of damage using melee attacks. Eldritch Scoundrel is more concerned about being a trickster and having lots of tools for any given situation. If sneak attack is your major concern, use Sense Vitals, which gives you about level appropriate sneak attack, if not more. Or, for a class with an arcane bent but still lots of sneak attack, you can't go wrong with Vivisectionist alchemist.
The Arcane Trickster gets sneak attack for Surprise Spell, which benefits full casters going into the class who blast, but not until much later down the line. Blasting usually uses big spells like fireball, lightning bolt, chain lighting and cone of cold. Blasting requires having lots of slots to play around with, high casting stats, and utilizing metamagics in order to ensure your spells stick. And, blasting is usually being done from level 1, and progressively becoming stronger over time from being able to use more and more metamagics. This isn't easily accomplished by an Eldritch Scoundrel, who is a 6/9th caster and gets all of these spells much later than a full caster and doesn't have access to many higher spell slots to utilize metamagics. In addition, Arcane Trickster only gives sneak attack, not proper ways for you to apply them outside of blasting (because you have actively hurt your accuracy with attacks, not helped it), and as I said, you don't blast that well, and you certainly won't hit anything with attack rolls unless you're burning Quickened True Strikes, which also takes a long while for you to even do, and only a few times a day, which also prevents blasting entirely since you're a prepared caster.
Overall, the way you want to use your Sneak Attack isn't going to work, and the Arcane Trickster's sneak attack is a dead weight without a higher BaB. And, in particular, it takes WAY too long for any of this to even remotely come online. What do you do in the meantime?
- You get Invisible Thief (the way I see it this is basically 9 rounds of guaranteed sneak attacks on all your attacks/spells per day, so in that sense the Arcane Trickster class most definitely does give you additional ways of triggering your sneak attacks);
At 12th level, Vanishing Trick with Invisible Blade is 12 rounds of greater invisibility for at least a 1st level spell. As a swift action, which is worse than Invisible Thief's free action, but you get a considerably greater number of rounds per resource expenditure. There is absolutely no comparison here. Invisibility Thief is mostly for enabling Surprise Spells while not stepping on the sorcerer's action economy (quickened spells+full-round action spells).
- You get Surprise Spells (which sounds like one of the most unique and fun abilities in the game, allowing you to cast an Intensified Fireball for 14d6 damage + 7d6 sneak attack damage at level 14);
As I said, blasting just sucks for you. You might be getting that at 14th, but the draconic/orc sorcerer who took levels in Arcane Trickster is also applying Empowered onto this fireball, dealing the same amount of damage, and adding +2-3 damage per dice rolled as well. And Quickened cast Burning Arc. And they were doing the damage you have only just started to do several levels before. And have a much larger quantity of spell slots to allow them to do this practically all day, while you have done this once or twice and that's it.
For that matter, if you do go blasting, what do you do outside of this? Why didn't you just play a sorcerer? Are you really a rogue at this point or just a spellcaster who wished they had full casting? And for that matter, why cap it at 14th level? That's practically the end point of many adventurer's careers, as any longer campaigns will probably take you all the way to 20. Before then, you will struggle to fill any niche you are hoping to without rogue talents to help you out. And if you're spending your limited feats on rogue talents, then where will you get the feats to boost your spellcasting, or skills?
- You also get some other stuff like ranged legerdemain and tricky spells but those are pretty inconsequential aside from pure roleplaying encounters so I don't really count them as major pros
They are cool but they are also achieved by stuff in Eldritch Scoundrel. Knock is a spell that blows ranged legerdemain out of the park and ranged Sleight of Hand is a fairly rare use, and tricky spells is quite useful but way too deep into Arcane Trickster.
Here's an odd new prestige class you might like. It doesn't advance sneak attack but it does add debuffs to touch spells and it has 3/4 BAB & 9/10 spellcasting. The odd free Empower Spell might be useful too.
Another idea is the archaeologist bard. Not int-based but 6 base skill points per level, and with Fortune's Favored you have +2 attack, damage, saves and skills (+3 next level) and with Lingering Perfomance you can do that for every fight in a normal adventuring day. This is easier to trigger than sneak attack and the attack bonus could be used to power a feat like Piranha Strike if you like for more damage.
For the exact conditions you've put up though the build you've got will be the best IMO.
Have you considered Investigator?
It does a lot of what you're looking for, with a less conditional damage boost that might not peak as high but also provides a bonus to hit.
Also the dynamic of alchemy and infusions really alters the impact the character has on the party. Giving a martial (barbarian particularly) a normally self only shapeshifting spell works way better than the usual classes that get access to it.
You want to sneak attack pretty much always? Look no more and check Canny Tumble.
To my understanding, is the best way to secure SA whenever you want, specially when you don't have a flanking buddy or the enemy is trying to be smart and repositions constantly to avoid that.
Onto the build, Arcane Trickster is not that bad, mainly because you still progress sneak attack (one thing that you wanted to keep) and nets you spell progession as well.
Being an Elf, 3 levels of Wizard is what you want if you decide to go through this route.
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You want to sneak attack pretty much always? Look no more and check Canny Tumble.
Well, you may want to look a little further than that.
Canny Tumble only denies them dex bonus to AC on your next attack prior to the start of your next turn. So, if you used a 5' step to tumble through their threatened area and then went to make a full attack you'd only get sneak attack on the first blow.
However, if you combine that with the Confounding Tumble Deed then you can get sneak attack on every blow... provided you succeed with the tumble roll and hit with the first attack. If you miss on the first attack then you lose sneak attack for however many attacks it takes before you hit.
Obviously, you would want to boost your Acrobatics as much as possible with this strategy and it never hurts to have backup options for getting sneak attack. For a caster I'd suggest various means of making it so you can see them but they can't see you... Tiny Hut, Greater Invisibility, Darkness + Darkvision, et cetera. All would allow sneak attack on full attacks.
Warlock Vigilante + a level of snakebite striker, Rogue or vivisectionist is a decent way to go in to the AT prestige class. you can pick up the second d6 of sneak through a feat and using mystic bolts means you get a touch attack for both melee and ranged so the BAB hit doesn't matter as much.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/circling-mongoose-combat
it could be interesting to build around that feat. high dex+ acrobatics, mobility, dodge, combat expertise, fighting defensively, arcane strike, twf, maybe crane style or unhindering shield. dance around slapping for multiple d6s of sneak attack. stack as much defense as you can and go to town, you'll be taking a lot of penalties on your to hit but that shouldn't matter unless you are fighting tiny fast creatures often. At range you still do okay damage with ranged touch attacks. On top of it you've got access to the best spell list in the game and spells for back up combat use and out of combat utility. oh and a ton of skill ranks.
Could you explain why I would need Strength and Charisma? The campaign will start at level 3, so I basically start with Dex to damage right off the bat. Charisma I could understand because of how I might want to save it for Disguise and Diplomacy, but even then I think the points are still better spent in Dex and Int.
A medium sized character with a 7 Str can safely carry 23 lbs. Any more than that and you suffer for it. An explorer's outfit, backpack, silk rope, and water skin weight 16 lb. Leather armor weighs 15 lbs and daggers are 1 lb each. Your speed drops to 20 ft, your max dex bonus to AC is +3, and you suffer a -3 penalty to a bunch of skills. I'll admit that carrying too much is easy to sneak under the GM's nose, but is that your intent? Also, your damage will be worse if you need to switch to a different weapons for some reason.