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Mostly replying to get the 600th post, but yeah, I like it too. Also check out the Striker, it has an update to make it MORE video gamey.I like it, especially the splitting up of Desperate Tension and Rising Tension, but I'd appreciate some clarification on Combo Rhythm. Does it "stack" between rounds? For instance, if you make a single successful attack roll on round 1, then again on round 2, will the bonus end up as +2? Or is it purely a round-to-round bonus intended for use with Rapid Pummel and Set Up Flurry?
It's round to round, as it works well with both of those and the new striker talents. It should say that the bonus only lasts until the beginning of your turn, which is why I tried to cap benefits at +4, since that seemed reasonable to me. If you really invest though, you could probably hit a higher bonus than that. I might play around with that text later, possibly set some hard guidelines for how much of a bonus you can build.
I'm with Baval that "Excellence" seems like a qualitative/adjectival, that could be applied to any pursuit or activity.
However, "Aptitude" doesn't really sound...enticing like "power" or "might" or "combat". Spheres of Talent?
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I just want to drop in and say that the Legendary Talents should not be locked behind level 10. Instead each talent should have a BAB associated with it as appropriate.
I understand Scout Sphere will make a character very stealthy and that's cool, but at level 5 a Wizard can cast Invisibility sphere up to three times in one day. For a Sphere caster they could get their entire party to have a +6 on Stealth as well as Hide in Plain Sight by 5th level. For a Castle Infiltration which would you think is more valuable? I would say the entire party being able to participate instead of one guy going Splinter Cell.
Options competitive with that may be considered Legendary Talent material, but a character shouldn't need to wait till level 10 to compete with stuff another class in the same niche did at level 5.
As far as I'm aware, that's how we're doing them, so you don't need to worry there.
Okay, made a new 15th level sage build with 20 point buy, 2 traits, and full ABP. Hard to gauge his effectiveness since while isn't really dealing "devastating attacks through his chi gong." like the Role section describes, getting only 44 average damage a turn. That 44 damage also comes with the enemy losing 2 hp per HD they have + being tripped and bullrushed and worsened AC and less melee damage, and nearly always being able to also chuck a stunning fist debuff on the enemy.
But that's only if he actually hits with his +19 attack bonus, and he can't really rely on chi gong touch to hit since any turn he uses that, he loses all his open hand benefits.
Based on this, is the intended strategy with sage to use chi gong touch to lower the enemies AC via crippling until they become reliable targets for their unarmed strikes?
Edit: Also, by RAW this build's CMB goes from +30 to +70 before adding in bonuses from feats, so I'm guessing the Chi Gong bonus to CMB and CMD thing is a typo or something.
I'm with Baval that "Excellence" seems like a qualitative/adjectival, that could be applied to any pursuit or activity.
However, "Aptitude" doesn't really sound...enticing like "power" or "might" or "combat". Spheres of Talent?
Seeing as "Power" and "Might" are also vague descriptions for the concepts of alternative magic and martial systems I don't think Excellence is that out-of-place. Talent would be fine, except most of these products call their Sphere abilities "Talents" already.
As far as I'm aware, that's how we're doing them, so you don't need to worry there.I just want to drop in and say that the Legendary Talents should not be locked behind level 10. Instead each talent should have a BAB associated with it as appropriate.
I understand Scout Sphere will make a character very stealthy and that's cool, but at level 5 a Wizard can cast Invisibility sphere up to three times in one day. For a Sphere caster they could get their entire party to have a +6 on Stealth as well as Hide in Plain Sight by 5th level. For a Castle Infiltration which would you think is more valuable? I would say the entire party being able to participate instead of one guy going Splinter Cell.
Options competitive with that may be considered Legendary Talent material, but a character shouldn't need to wait till level 10 to compete with stuff another class in the same niche did at level 5
Honestly, I dont think that Legendary Talents should have any requirements besides Sphere and Talent Prerequisites. My reasoning is that for the most part the requirements on Advanced Talents were made due to 'world shattering' ability, 'potential abuse', or 'sheer power' but that is not the case Legendary Talents if I understand correctly.
I'm with Baval that "Excellence" seems like a qualitative/adjectival, that could be applied to any pursuit or activity.
However, "Aptitude" doesn't really sound...enticing like "power" or "might" or "combat". Spheres of Talent?
So, when is Spheres of Expertise coming out for skill-based characters?
:-)
How about.... Spheres of Influence?
And calling Sphere martials... Sphorriors!
*covers head, ducks, and runs*
It would be great if you could pay skill points to unlock spheres and talents.
I'm thinking along the lines of "Give up 1 / 3 / 5 skills per level to get half / three-quarters / full progression". Classes with less skill points available have a harder time buying into it but if they're anything like the spheres here it seems like buying into the system may be worth more than the skills they give up in the first place.
For those who didn't see the update, it looks like we're getting Skill stuff in the main book, not a separate one. XD
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So I've built a sword-and-board Paragon up to Level 9 (Berserking, Equipment, Guardian, and Shield spheres) and a reach Blacksmith up to Level 5 (Equipment and Guardian spheres). I built the Paragon before the recent string of updated talents so it may need some work (and I used WBL on that one as if I was starting from Level 1 and worked my way up to 9) while the Blacksmith was just built today (and the WBL is done by level and not as if it had been progressed, although to my knowledge they're largely the same). Links are posted in the spoilers below.
Also, I've posted my thoughts on each class and the build I used in each spoiler.
Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5
Level 6
Level 7
Level 8
Level 9
Paragon is, in my opinion, a little front-loaded at Level 1. It has some cool abilities, such as gaining an attack and damage bonus against Challenged enemies and swapping Dexterity with Wisdom on a couple stats (Reflex, Initiative, and Combat Reflexes Prerequisites and granted AoOs). On the other hand, it has one of the most powerful abilities right at the beginning (non-Challenged enemies who attack you provoke an AoO from you) which doesn't depend on class levels to function. With two good saves, high HD and BAB, a decent amount of skills, tons of proficiencies, bonus HP that scales with BAB and not Class Level, WIS to Reflex and Initiative, and all this other good stuff I think it will become a very popular class for dipping into.
Also, since Defender's Challenge grants the Paragon attacks against non-challenged enemies, they'll likely prioritize additional attacks over taking abilities that help protect their allies, such as Mass Challenge and the various (Challenge) abilities. This seems to run counter to the point of the class - that being defending their allies from harm. To prevent the player from prioritizing personal damage output over team defense I suggest altering the wording of Defender's Challenge - make it so Challenged enemies who attack their allies provoke an Attack of Opportunity from the Paragon. It makes more sense for the Challenged enemy, who is being singled out by the Paragon, to be the focus of the ability than other creatures. This makes the Challenge talents more useful to the class that is essentially based on Challenge interactions.
Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5
Blacksmith is very interesting - I can see a few different ways to build this character, but for now I wanted to focus on a similar build that is made very much different due to the class features. You'll note that both the Paragon and the Blacksmith I built rely on Patrol to take AoOs - the difference is that the Paragon is more defensive and capable of tanking hits while the Blacksmith is a damage machine. The bonus weapon damage from Sharpen Weapons and Practiced Power is huge, and it even makes underused weapons like the Crossbow more effective as backup ranged weapons. Where the Paragon relies on his naturally-high AC, Temporary HP, huge amount of health, and amazing saves to survive, the Blacksmith survives by staying as far away from the enemy as possible while still dishing out pain. Thundering Blows supplements his ridiculous damage and allows him to Sunder all sorts of gear to debuff enemies while still doing fantastic damage. Clear Path allows him to enable his allies to move without fear of retribution, and at Level 5 his sphere of influence (haha) is a ridiculous 25' radius around him - imagine getting this guy up to Large or Huge size with the Alteration sphere. Yikes.
Ultimately I think this class is very strong as-is. While allowing Blacksmiths to Reforge magic gear at no cost can be unbalancing, making it take 8 hours at a forge is a good balancing factor - you won't find a forge in the wild, and that time restriction makes it much harder to just Sunder everything and rebuild it all without sinking a huge amount of time into it (and thus not the adventure at hand). I shudder at the thought of what this class could do in a campaign like Kingmaker, though.
*Starts to read through Striker*
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*Starts statting up Yang Xiao Long*
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So I've built a sword-and-board Paragon up to Level 9 (Berserking, Equipment, Guardian, and Shield spheres) and a reach Blacksmith up to Level 5 (Equipment and Guardian spheres). I built the Paragon before the recent string of updated talents so it may need some work (and I used WBL on that one as if I was starting from Level 1 and worked my way up to 9) while the Blacksmith was just built today (and the WBL is done by level and not as if it had been progressed, although to my knowledge they're largely the same). Links are posted in the spoilers below.
Also, I've posted my thoughts on each class and the build I used in each spoiler.
** spoiler omitted **...
Almost pre-emptively, some of these were changed in the new sentinel (previously paragon) update, although you can bet I'll be using these pre gens for a sample game I have set up. Thanks for the input, I'm sure Ssalarn will love your thoughts on the blacksmith.
Thanks! That what I thought from the wording, I was just a bit confused because I didn't think it would be at all useful... until today's session that is, where I actually played a Striker. I didn't realize just how many attack rolls I'd be making per turn, even at low levels!
I mean, Combo Rhythm didn't really come into play because my rolls were utter trash, but if the dice gods were with me the ability would've been great.
No problem, the striker can make a TON of attacks, making its 'monk like' comparisons all the more apt. Once dual wielding comes out, it'll have even more potential for attacks!
*Starts to read through Striker*
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*Starts statting up Yang Xiao Long*
The gun kata equipment talent was made to simulate the ember celica, although I have ideas on how to do it more accurately myself.
The gun kata equipment talent was made to simulate the ember celica, although I have ideas on how to do it more accurately myself.
I was going to use amulet of mighty fists with fire-based enchantments swapped to use wrist slot rather than neck slot + the lunging talent so she can use her unarmed strikes at "shotgun range", simply because I really really really dislike the firearm rules of Pathfinder (would be so much simpler if they were just better crossbows rather than weird "let's balance this stuff by making it annoying for people to use"). Also the only firearm that fits her style seems to be the buckler gun and I'm really not willing to use an early firearm with their horrid rules.
*Starts to read through Striker*
...
*Starts statting up Yang Xiao Long*
...I actually had her built and ready to go, but I lost it when Myth-Weavers crashed last week. Think I went Striker 6 / Barbarian 1 with Boxing and Berserking.
The gun kata equipment talent was made to simulate the ember celica, although I have ideas on how to do it more accurately myself.Also the only firearm that fits her style seems to be the buckler gun and I'm really not willing to use an early firearm with their horrid rules.
Yang comes from a setting with the Guns Everywhere rules - her fighting style is informed by this and doesn't mesh well with the emerging firearms setting of Golarion. If you wanna make her weapon, you gotta bend some rules. I gave her a pair of double shotguns and the Rapid Reload talent from Equipment to drop reloading down to a Free action, then custom-designed a Gauntlet-Double Shotgun double weapon myself.
...I actually had her built and ready to go, but I lost it when Myth-Weavers crashed last week. Think I went Striker 6 / Barbarian 1 with Boxing and Berserking.
The characters I've been building are 15th level monoclass builds, so she might be abit more over the top.
Yang comes from a setting with the Guns Everywhere rules - her fighting style is informed by this and doesn't mesh well with the emerging firearms setting of Golarion.
Cost isn't really much of an issue since the firearms talent gives gunsmith which helps with the cost for practitioners.
If you wanna make her weapon, you gotta bend some rules. I gave her a pair of double shotguns and the Rapid Reload talent from Equipment to drop reloading down to a Free action, then custom-designed a Gauntlet-Double Shotgun double weapon myself.
I find playtest characters work better when they're using the rules of the game :P
Now that I'm at the stage of character creation where I process the data into a pretty statblock, I'm stuck wondering if there is even a way to calculate the average damage of a decently levelled striker? The number of attacks it has each round is so dynamic @_@
Isn't there a book that lets you design your own weapon?
Yeah, the Weapon Masters Handbook. But it specifically does not cover firearms, which means no gunkata.
I think most of the Spheres are supposed to be weapon agnostic, so you could use your natural weapons with almost anything (some exclusions may apply). Also, the Alternative Unarmed Training feat in the document allows you to treat your natural attacks as unarmed strikes, letting you use relevant Spheres and effects.
Design Manager
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I think most of the Spheres are supposed to be weapon agnostic, so you could use your natural weapons with almost anything (some exclusions may apply). Also, the Alternative Unarmed Training feat in the document allows you to treat your natural attacks as unarmed strikes, letting you use relevant Spheres and effects.Alternative Unarmed Training is something I hadn't seen thanks. And I knew a lot were agnostic, or at least broad like light weapons, just curious if there was something for it specifically.
Currently there is not. Traditional natural attacking builds don't really mesh with the attack action focus of this system, and most of the spheres are compatible with natural weapons as-is.
If we do do something specifically focused on natural weapons, it'll probably be presented as part of the GM Support section with the Martial Bestiary, where its focus will be more on customizing monsters for cool and unique fights. That doesn't mean these options won't necessarily be available to players (Pathfinder is generally written assuming that players and adversaries alike have access to the same toolset), but the powers may have a slightly different focus or structure, may not have associated Legendary Talents, etc.
Regardless, most of that is speculation as we've discussed how we wanted to do it and written up some sample monsters and scenarios, but we haven't made any final decisions at this point.
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Yeah, the ideal for me would be to keep enough of the spheres and talents weapon agnostic so that it doesn't require unique natural weapon talents. This makes it more fun on the DM side - the example I think of is a rhinoceros with Lancer and Berserking spheres - and gives other options for natural attack PCs beyond "gain as many as possible." Let the catfolk striker make use of Boxing with her claws.
That rhino will like the Brute sphere too. Have to add that idea to our list of monsters to stat.
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Yeah, the ideal for me would be to keep enough of the spheres and talents weapon agnostic so that it doesn't require unique natural weapon talents. This makes it more fun on the DM side - the example I think of is a rhinoceros with Lancer and Berserking spheres - and gives other options for natural attack PCs beyond "gain as many as possible." Let the catfolk striker make use of Boxing with her claws.That rhino will like the Brute sphere too. Have to add that idea to our list of monsters to stat.
Stack, we both know the king of the animal world is a bear with the barroom sphere that just slowly starts to slur its growls while pounding brews.
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Stack, we both know the king of the animal world is a bear with the barroom sphere that just slowly starts to slur its growls while pounding brews.Yeah, the ideal for me would be to keep enough of the spheres and talents weapon agnostic so that it doesn't require unique natural weapon talents. This makes it more fun on the DM side - the example I think of is a rhinoceros with Lancer and Berserking spheres - and gives other options for natural attack PCs beyond "gain as many as possible." Let the catfolk striker make use of Boxing with her claws.That rhino will like the Brute sphere too. Have to add that idea to our list of monsters to stat.
Monkey swarm. Scoundrel sphere.
Well . . . we kinda playtested this weekend . . . . It was just a 4th-level intro session, and more immersive in story than combat (at this point), but I had to "reawaken" my Old Guard unit to 3.5/PF in the process. Even so, the Guardian, Barrage, and Sniping spheres went over well, as did Spheres of Power. It will likely be another month or so before we can reconvene to get to the "crunchy" part of the ongoing story (my players agonized too long over a hint of "bigger things to come", and one was unusually disruptive throughout), but I can say my first impressions continue to be affirmed.
Keep it up, DDS!
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Is barrom sphere real or made up? It should be real. Is that the improvised weapon sphere someone mentioned at some point? Dang it all your random comments excite me now.
Not yet, and it's improvised weapons along with benefits for being drunk. As a whole, I think it's going to be probably a less than amazing for pure combat, but it is a lot of fun.
EDIT: This is my 3,000th post, crazy how long I've been here.
My 15th level playtest vanara sage build & 15th level ifrit striker (Yang) build. (still slightly disappointed with the lack of a fast motorbike options in PF)