Hey y'all new here, came here after an arguement with my friend abot which type of magic influences what your party does more. And I ain't mean literally through enchant spells.
I think it is arcane magic, because in my honest opinion if you could only have one spell caster you'd want it ro be arcane. At lower levels they may be a 'touch weaker, but they progress quite fast and by level's 13+ they are quite the little powerhouse.
So in you'all opinion does divine or arcane magic shape your party more? Also if you could only have one would't you pick an arcane?
Speaking from experience, I'd say arcane. Every spell that gets created seems to be a sorcerer/wizard spell, yes, I'm exagerating, but still feels like it. In a high-level game I was part of, we had one high level divine caster (me), a paladin, and a low level arcane spellcaster (ranger/wizard/arcane archer). Many of the common tricks of higher level game play are harder to do without them, e.g. teleport, overland flight, even a decent amount of battlefield control. I struggle trying to cover some of these bases till the paladin left and we got an EK with a lot of sorcerer levels.
That said, this question is too broad. There are many arcane classes, and many divine classes. Straight from the CRB? It's the versatility of wizards vs. the specialized status removal of clerics. As you move through the APG, ACG, etc. the distinction breaks down quite a bit.
Broad strokes answer: lower levels, divine magic keeps you alive. Higher levels, arcane magic helps you thrive.
Arcane has more influence. Divine casters are great but most of their spells that arcane casters can't mimic(without wishes) are not absolutely necessary until the day after. My prime examples of this are fireball and dimension door(yes certain clerics can but in general). Divine casters for the most part absolutely lack AOE minion clearing ability and it is needed at proper CL right when it is needed. Dimension door is another benchmark spell that when you need it you NEED it and divine casters have no suitable replacement. Removal of most stats effects can be either put off till you get back to town where a cleric can be hired or removed by the arcanist and a few fairly cheap magic items.
I'd say divine is bigger at lower levels, with arcane being bigger at later levels. Status removal spells can eventually be covered by magic items, but you can't easily afford those right away.
Low levels there aren't many stats that both last longer than a combat and need to be worried about much
Given the importance, albeit not always recognized, of Cure, Remove ailment, restoration, and resurrection/reincarnation magic, I'd say definitely divine... the party just would not be the same without it.
The group I play with has a clear preference for 6 and 9 level divine casters over 6 level arcane casters, over 9 level arcane casters. I honestly can't remember the time I got to play and there was a wizard or a sorcerer in the party. We average about 1 9 level caster per four person party, and it's most likely an Oracle, Druid, Shaman, Cleric, or Witch in that order.
Unless you you have overly dominant players running the casters, it is the less adaptable classes that shape the party, since the casters can more easily change up their tactics.
Healing and status removal are nearly always the dominant factors in games that don' t run a 15 minute adventure day.
If the party had no divine the game would be "Sit at home and craft your own loot, don't go to the dungeon full of spider zombies and dragon ghosts".
I don't know why people don't like cleric AoEs, the good ol' blade barrier bullrush manuver has never let me down.
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I would say that Divine shapes the party, but Arcane shapes the world.
Even if a party with no divine casters could be perfectly playable, it could only be through UMD and divine scrolls/wands/etc. to grant access to status removal spells, which are mostly divine.
My party in CoCT didn't have any divine spellcaster but two bards.
I am sort of my party's healer with my witch but again I have maxed my UMD so I have access to more status removal spells.
So, even though an arcane caster might fill that role, divine magic it's still needed to do it. In the other side, a party without arcane spellcasters can still rely on divine spellcasting to get the things done.
So, I think divine magic wins her because you can't fully avoid using it as it could be done with arcane magic.
If you have the Healing Patron, I think you have access to all the bad status removal spells you need without UMD. Hedge Witch and/or Hex Channeler (for bad status removal rider via Variant Channeling) or Herb Witch archetypes are helpful but not required. Somebody else should have UMD in case you go down, though.
If you have the Endurance Patron, you need a Paladin or Warpriest to fill in Lesser Restoration and Restoration if you don't have UMD (although you should have it anyway in case they get disabled by something that needs these spells to fix it).
A few archetypes of other arcane classes (Magaambyan Initiate Arcanist into Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class, Spell Sage Wizard) have access to bad status removal spells, although getting all those that you need is either delayed or very inefficient and limited). The Pathfinder Savant prestige class also lets you do this but is inefficient. Any Skald that doesn't trade out Spell Kenning also lets you do this in very limited quantity (and doesn't get past 6th level spells unless you are going Epic).
Somebody who is into summoning (not necessarily a Summoner) can snag some bad status removal stuff from summons, and it could even be quite efficient, but I'm not sure how complete the coverage is. Somebody who is into this and also falls into one of the above categories could use the summons for most stuff and then use their own inefficient abilities to fill in the gaps, if needed.
In the long run we have had an even mix of divine and arcane casters, our current party has three divine and two arcane casters. The previous campaign was the opposite. However the party leader is almost always a divine caster. Our last five party leaders have been: paladin, cleric, paladin, monk, cleric
If you have the Healing Patron, I think you have access to all the bad status removal spells you need without UMD. Hedge Witch and/or Hex Channeler (for bad status removal rider via Variant Channeling) or Herb Witch archetypes are helpful but not required. Somebody else should have UMD in case you go down, though.
If you have the Endurance Patron, you need a Paladin or Warpriest to fill in Lesser Restoration and Restoration if you don't have UMD (although you should have it anyway in case they get disabled by something that needs these spells to fix it).
A few archetypes of other arcane classes (Magaambyan Initiate Arcanist into Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class, Spell Sage Wizard) have access to bad status removal spells, although getting all those that you need is either delayed or very inefficient and limited). The Pathfinder Savant prestige class also lets you do this but is inefficient. Any Skald that doesn't trade out Spell Kenning also lets you do this in very limited quantity (and doesn't get past 6th level spells unless you are going Epic).
Somebody who is into summoning (not necessarily a Summoner) can snag some bad status removal stuff from summons, and it could even be quite efficient, but I'm not sure how complete the coverage is. Somebody who is into this and also falls into one of the above categories could use the summons for most stuff and then use their own inefficient abilities to fill in the gaps, if needed.
I'm aware that a witch with the Healing patron would hace all the status removal, but I don't want to focus on too much specific examples. Anyway, my witch has the time patron and is not heavily focused on healing and she still does it pretty well with healing hex, a couple of cure spells and summons (I'm thinking of starting to give my summoned Lillend a share of the loot as she's such a useful member of the party).
I wouldn't count summoned creatures as a substitutive for status removal/ healing as they are a high level resource not avaliable for low level characters so at lower levels divine spells would be needed anyway.I still think that generally divine spells (not necessarily divine spellcasters, as I'm counting spells casted by UMD) are more needed than arcane. Of course, there are exceptions like the aforementionated Healing witch, that can cast those spells as arcane, but I'd rather avoid going too much into such specific cases as the main question is more general than specific.
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I've seen parties that grumble about not having an arcane caster.
I've seen many more that would not be willing to exit the door into a prolonged adventure without someone who could be counted to bring up the healing and undo status effects.
At level one and maybe even level two, even a wand of cure light can be hard to come across. So, even if your party isn't shaped by having a healer, it will be shaped by needing to sink a lot of resources into healing items.
Certainly divine casters in our campaigns - and in a broader sense, divine magic, obediences, deities, and extraplanar creatures - are all far more involved in the way that they shape our campaigns.
Arcane casters are a lovely thing to have, and we definitely don't turn our noses up at them - but divine magic is often more represented and more impactful due to the roleplaying that goes along with having a deity "involved."
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The point I was trying to make before is that you don't absolutely HAVE to have one each of arcane and divine -- Pathfinder now gives you enough options that you can cover your needs reasonably well even if you are missing one or the other, although they are both still good to have.
Other options are to substitute an Occult caster or an Alchemist/Investigator for one (maybe even both) of these types of caster.
These things (even the painfully crafted specific cases) are important options if you ever need to start out in or go early into some place like Bachuan, Nidal, Rahadoum, Razmiran, or Touvette, or even (if it gets only moderately worse than it already is) Cheliax. These places will hunt down unsanctioned (or in many cases all) divine casters before you can get the means to hide them.
More prosaically, these are also important options if you find yourself to be the only spellcaster (or maybe even just the only 9/9 spellcaster) in a party.
I agree, UAE - I often feel like the role of an arcane caster is easier to fill with other types of magic, whether it's alchemy, occult magic, or even certain divine casters (like a Flames Oracle with the Blackened curse.)
Divine casters - in my opinion - are trickier to replicate.
Gonna be honest: utility is not usually on my mind when I play arcane. About 90% of my team composition ideas come from playing pokemon, including "have at least one competent physical attacker, and at least one competent special attacker, or prepare to get walled." Arcane casters are usually much better offence than divine.
But we're not talking about what's more powerful, offensive, etc. It's about what defines the game. And we are not talking about arcane or divine casters, but about arcane or divine magic. Looks like the same but it isn't.
I would tend towards arcane, if only due to the fact that it tends to have more varied builds.
Blaster with AoEs? Melee guys may need to plan to stand back a bit, better have ranged since they can just add damage from a distance and help make sure everything is dead.
Buffer? Have more melee guys to buff.
Battlefield control? Similar to buffing, since you will need beefy guys to actually take advantage of the monster stuck in a pit by giving them long sticks to poke with.
Summoning? melee might be a bit redundant, or at least they should prepare to flank with the evil eagle you are tossing out.
Mind control and other sneaky stuff? Better not bring full plate mc loud pants along. Better have sneaky guys like rogues or slayers.
Save Debuffs (such as witch)? Better have some SoS casters to make thing even worse.
While general arcane classes like wizards could fulfill any of these roles, there is always some degree of specialization. Parties often fall into patterns, and the wizard gets some favorite spells that he usually throws out routinely. So they usually just pick a couple of those roles and leaves the rest to unused spell slots as needed.
So the large effect of the arcane casters on a parties simply from the number of roles that can fulfill. Not each arcane class individually- the party is simply very different when it has a bard vs when it has a witch (they tend to be divided on martial heavy vs. caster heavy).
Arcane or divine casters or even both could be replaced with careful planning, given the options available with Pathfinder.
What might be more answerable than which one inherently shapes the party more is: In actual Pathfinder Adventure Paths and Modules/Scenarios, in what ways does the campaign setting shape the party, including selection and building of arcane and divine spellcasters (and Alchemists/Investigators, and maybe even Occult casters now that they have been out for a while)(*)? Which ones feel more easily adaptable, and which ones feel more constrained, especially in a situation where you just can't get a complementary type of caster? The answer isn't necessarily the same for every AP (actually, I would be surprised if it was).
(*)In other words, thinking of the shaping of the casters and the rest of the party as having a common ancestor rather than one causing the other, although the latter is possible (but actually goes both ways).
In combat Arcane out of Combat, both mechanically and roleplay wise Divine. Divine more often have rules they have to follow which arcanes don't which dictate how the party does things. they also have healing which and cures for things which is important out of combat. Arcane has more immediately relevant combat magic.