Many of the spells you are using are also on the investigators list. The investigator also has a lot of other useful spells including polymorph spells.
The bard also has a very limited number of spells known and is already FULLY covering the role of healer including condition removal. Neither class will be able to cover every role all the time. The bard as a spontaneous caster will need to choose what he can do with his spells and has very little flexibility to alter it. Being able to change his formula daily allows the investigator to adjust to the current needs of the party. This means he can fully cover more roles than the bard.
Pageant of the Peacock only works on INT based skill; it does not change any skills to INT based skills. That means it only works on appraise, craft skills, knowledge skills, linguistics, and spell craft. It is also does not work with either bardic knowledge or lore master. Also, if you are playing an archeologist bard you do not have bardic performance so cannot take Pageant of the Peacock.
One of my original criteria was the character needed to be able to find and disarm magical traps. There are only two bard archetypes that I know of that can do that. They are the archaeologist and the archivist. Both archetypes trade away versatile performance, so versatile performance should not be factored in. The archaeologist trades away all performances so cannot take pageant of the peacock. Your arguments have included the features those archetypes do not have.
I have suggested a complete build and I am only using class features of the archetype I am using. What build are you using?
I am enjoying the conversation and am looking forward to Tom’s response. I find this type of back-and-forth discussion helps me be a better player and GM. This type of debate is what develops system mastery. Seeing other people’s ideas expands your understanding and creativity.
I know you are not interested in specific builds, but I would be interested in what build Tom comes up with.
Here is the build I came up with for the investigator. I used a 20-point build and initially had the following stats: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 20 (with racial bonus), WIS 9, CHA 7. At level 4 I raised the WIS to 10 to get rid of the -1 penalty on Will saves, the rest went into INT. I took focused study to gain skill focus at 1st, 8th and latter 16th level. Favored class bonus was used for extra skill points.
For feats I took alertness, extra Investigator talent, focused inspiration, great fortitude, and Iron will in addition to skill focus with perception and sense motive. I took iron will and great fortitude so the character is more resilient to magic and will be unlikely to need assistance in combat. Signature skill sense motive at 10 level allows him to read minds after spending 1 minute in conversation with someone by making his sense motive roll with a -20 penalty. At 12th level with heroism up he has a +15 bonus and adds a d10 to the roll. On the average that gives him a +20.5 to his sense motive after the penalty.
Trap spotter means he automatically gets a roll to notice a trap when he is within 10 feet of the trap. Amazing Inspiration boost the inspiration die to 1d8. Infusion allows him to affect others with his extracts. The rest of the inspirations add more skills that he can add the inspiration die to without using an inspiration point. This saves his inspiration point for things like taking 20 on knowledge skills, other skills, attack rolls or saving throws.
He has 168 skill points and uses his INT modifier for over half of them including on diplomacy, sense motive perception, and bluff to lie. He adds 1d8 to the following skills without having to spend an inspiration point: diplomacy, heal, all knowledge skills, linguistics and spell craft, bluff, disable device, disguise, intimidate, and sleight of hand. He adds 1d10 to all perception and sense motive sill rolls without having to spend an inspiration point. He also adds +12 (for a total of +24) to craft alchemy to create alchemical items. He cannot roll less than a 15 and, on the average, will roll 28 for heal checks. This will allow him to stop bleeding or other condition needing a heal check. All skills except disguise, ride and survival have at least a +10 bonus. The only skills he cannot make a check on are handle animal, crafts other than alchemy, perform and professional skills. He can also use heroism to get a +2 bonus on all skills for up to 2 hours.
The character only combat abilities are baked into the class but are still useful. He can use studied combat to get a +6 to hit and damage. If he has heroism up it gives him another +2 to hit. He can also use studied strike to add 5d6 damage but ends the studied combat. For the most part even with studied strike he is still plinking away, but when a target is almost down, he can often finish them off. At 12th level with a +2 rapier, he will be +18 and can do 6d6+7 damage using studied strike.
Below is the full stat block of the build. The numbers include the +2 bonus for heroism and the studied strike bonus. For magic items I used the ABP as a guideline but used the items. the headband gave him +12 to climb and swim.
Investigator
Male human investigator (empiricist) 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100)
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +35
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +2 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 87 (12d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +17, Will +15 (+4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects)
Defensive Abilities trap sense +4; Resist unfailing logic
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 rapier +18/+13 (1d6+1/18-20 plus 6 melee precision damage)
Special Attacks studied combat (+6, 8 rounds), studied strike +5d6
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 12th; concentration +20)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 26, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +16; CMD 24
Feats Alertness, Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Focused Inspiration[ACG], Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Signature Skill, Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Sense Motive)
Traits precise treatment, student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +12, Appraise +14, Bluff +15 (+25 to lie (as a result of using Int instead of Cha)), Climb +16, Craft (alchemy) +14 (+26 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +15 (+25 to gather information (You can use your Intelligence Modifier instead of Charisma), +25 to persuade others but not to gather information (as a result of using Int instead of Cha)), Disable Device +33, Disguise +9, Escape Artist +15, Fly +12, Heal +15, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (engineering) +16, Knowledge (geography) +16, Knowledge (history) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (nobility) +16, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Linguistics +16, Perception +35, Ride +6, Sense Motive +35, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +25, Stealth +21, Survival +2, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +25
Languages Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Kelish, Orc, Osiriani, Skald, Sylvan
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +12), ceaseless observation, inspiration (1d8, 14/day), investigator talents (amazing inspiration[ACG], eidetic recollection[ACG], expanded inspiration[ACG], infusion, trap spotter, underworld inspiration[ACG]), keen recollection, trapfinding +6
Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 rapier, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +4, cloak of resistance +3, headband of vast intelligence +4, ring of protection +2, investigator starting formula book, masterwork thieves' tools, 46,525 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +12 (Su) +12 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Ceaseless Observation (Ex) Use INT instead of CHA for gather information (+10)
Eidetic Recollection (Su) Can always take 10 on Knowledge checks, use 1 inspiration to take 20.
Expanded Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive (if trained).
Focused Inspiration (Perception, Sense Motive) Roll 2d8 (or 2d10 if normally rolling d8) when adding inspiration to selected skills.
Infusion Create an extract can be used by anyone but takes up a slot until used.
Inspiration (+1d8, 14/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Keen Recollection At 3rd level, an investigator can attempt all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Studied Combat (+6, 8 rounds) (Ex) As a move action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +5d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Trap Sense +4 (Ex) +4 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +6 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Underworld Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, or Sleight of Hand (if trained).
Unfailing Logic +4 (Ex) +4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects
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I feel like we may have gotten a little too far afield. Can we make characters who contribute both in and out of combat? Obviously we can. I think the original question was more about how troublesome it is to have a low-combat party member in this game, while achieving your own "class" fantasy of being low-combat.
For the most part I think we've discussed the main points though
1. Damage can be covered by others, if you happen to have enough beat sticks.
2. There are easily available combat actions for 99% of class combos out there.
Another option is to have your main character be non-combat and have a pet be combat. Summoner and spiritualist can do this well. I’m reminded of the quintessentialist spiritualist who shifts more power to the phantom making your main character lower combat. I also like the spirit summoner for pumping up your pet over your own contributions, but it’s not really meant for that use
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To look at the post in a different light, I myself must play a beat stick in and out of combat. I work a caring profession where the expectation is that I support, guide, and encourage people through a lot of failures until they get it right.
My alter ego gets to put things straight the first time (which varies a lot in appearance by different alignments and campaigns), but there is very little room for ‘let’s wait and see how things turn out’.
I haven’t done it myself but I’ve played with those who’ve been low combat. The phantom thief rogue is this by nature. So, this thread could have been about the viability of that archetype and gotten mostly similar responses.
My earlier insights were based on those experiences.
So, my personal experience in this regard comes from running a few lengthy campaigns (I’d say I’ve been DMing for about 10+ years now, exact time table lost to Covid time shenanigans). And it’s that while I value non-conventional characters and builds from my PCs, I personally feel that a more balanced character provides the best experience at my table.
Most of my players are what I will refer to as “casual” TTRPG enjoyers. They bring me a character concept and I help them flesh it out and bring it to life. At my table, due to time constraints, combat encounters are exclusively boss and miniboss fights, though what exactly that details can vary from more of a hoard fight to facing down a single CR+4 encounter. Most sessions are planning/RP heavy and involve skill checks, logistics puzzles, and over coming various obstacles. So we rarely have a proper “adventuring day” of several CR + 0 encounters in a row.
As a result of this, I try to point my players in a direction that gives each of them some manner of out of combat utility. Beat sticks without any RP potential are going to be fairly bored in 75% of my game sessions. The same thing goes for “plinkers” who will need something to do in the 25% of sessions that are fights. Pathfinder is still a game about specialization, but it’s possible to divest just enough of your resources (especially with my house rules that provide extra resources) to have your character matter even when it’s not time for your speciality.
As a result, The sole type of character that doesn’t do well at my table are the ones that are designed to be useless. And unfortunately I have a player who only makes these characters. Designed to be useless is a little harsh, rather let’s say “designed purely from an RP standpoint”. Their character is inevitably some manner of god awful multiclass designed without consultation with any other player: existing solely to represent their newest concept of a character. The few places they excel are inevitably covered by another character because they didn’t consult, while the places they fail make them a liability rather than an asset.
I literally do not account for them when designing encounters. In non-combat situations someone else can do whatever they are doing. In combat encounters the benefits they provide are so negligible that I treat my party as a 5 player group instead of 6 when accounting for CR budget. Even my plinkers are typically accounted for in my design process as they do something, anything, to add to the party’s value.
Suffice to say that, long rambling aside, whenever you design a beat stick or a plinker you should make sure they do something for the party. Ideally you design a character with a few resources dedicated so they’re not completely useless when they are outside their area of expertise. However, please also design them with an area of expertise in mind. Preferably so that their area of expertise doesn’t overlap with the existing party. As always account for your party members and the style of campaign your GM runs. Provided you accomplish those simple goals, and you are having fun, there is no reason you should have to build a beat stick (or conversely, have to build a plinker).
You can build a character that can contribute his share to combat without having to be a beatstick. This will take some resources, but does not have to be that much. If he does that, he can scale back some of the other things he is contributing to the party. If that is the case either the archaeologist bard or the empiricist investigator is decent for that. All they really need is Weapon finesse and way to get DEX to damage and their combat ability becomes decent enough that they can do more than hide in a corner until it is over.
The empiricist investigator still has better out of combat utility, but if the bard switches his high stat to DEX and uses his spells for larceny related objectives he does very well. If he picks up a few more combat related feats he can becomes very good in combat. The investigator has more baked into combat ability, which is why I suggested it. They can also leave all their extract slots empty and make the extracts as needed. This makes them a better at filling in roles because they have access to more spells. For healing the restoration line is an absolute must have. If the archaeologist bard can devote his spells to thievery, he can get very efficient at it, but he cannot do that and heal.