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I have ran ROTRL up to the end of book 5, and it does get tougher. The book your currently in, book 1, really only has two challenging fights, one of which being optional. The monsters should be getting tougher as you progress later on.
Although if you need a way to boost monsters try applying the advanced template. It's a quick easy template that only serves to strengthen monsters a bit. Likewise making monsters play smarter is a good option too. Many of the important enemies in Thistletop retreat when too injured, have them work together. Nothing said hello in my game like the invisible bastard sword crit.
Lastly while the adventure is pre-written, you are free to change up monster's feats and spells. Remember that ROTRL came out a while ago, so most casters lack some of the new flashier spells. Also feel free to give monsters teamwork feats, which turns a horde of weak monsters into a semi-decent threat.
If I recall, most of the beginning of Runelords book 1 was super easy goblin encounters. I think thistletop can be nasty because you can make lots of the encounters in areas where medium PC's will be forced to squeeze to fight small goblins.
The original runelords seemed to have a lot of fairly easy encounters, with some real lethal boss fights every once in a while.
I recommend just giving the goblins the toughness feat, and perhaps some better equipment, and have them use better tactics. If the players are still breezing through things, ask the following questions:
What point buy are you using?
How many PCs?
What level of optimization do the players have?
What classes are in the party?
What house rules are you using?
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If you're worried about the XP they get, drop the XP. RotRL tells you, where the group should level up. Just forget the XP and let them level at the right moments.
Or, if they insist on XP, fudge the XP they get for the encounters. Make up the numbers. When you know you're two sessions away from the point where the next level up is and they are 3.000 XP away from it, give them 1.500 XP per session (or 800 now and 2.200 next time or something like this, depending on the situations)
That written, how many players are in your group? how strong or optimized are their characters? What strategies do they use? What classes does the group consist of? Maybe you can make the encounters more challenging by changing your tactics, customize it to the weaknesses of your group.
(also, to get more specific, how are their WILL saves? The fear effects of the Yeth Hounds in Thistletop are usually very effective at lvl 2 or 3. Two or three of them combined with Nualias channel negative energy ability should theoretically be challenging even for a group of 6 highly optimized characters.)
Also, there is a whole area of the message boards dedicated to the adventure paths.
Dont worry, things will get tougher.
Dont do exp. Just level by milestone.
First thing you should do is drop the use of XP. The game has a built in track to tell you when your players should be leveling up. Not using XP I found encourages more diplomatic solutions, rather than solving everything with combat.
Your stat generation method is a bit strong, but that isn't too much a problem. Also I see you mentioned Eidolon, if you have a summoner make sure it is the unchained version, otherwise they get pretty ridiculous.
You're right the AP is not really built for powergamers, not many are. Players, in regards to AP's, are expected to win encounters for the most part, so the monsters are usually under tuned. At this point I would keep them level 4 until after chapter 1 of book 2, which should put them back on leveling track.
And yes, Simple Template Advanced (CR +1) is the one I was referring too, it's the easiest template to boost monsters imo.
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By the end, RotRL is going to be testing everything they've got, so don't worry about the PCs feeling powerful at low level; they'll get theirs soon enough. I wouldn't worry about "this AP is not built for power players" since it's actually one of the tougher ones, just not at first.
If you're worried about the XP they get, drop the XP.
That written, how many players are in your group? how strong or optimized are their characters? What strategies do they use? What classes does the group consist of? Maybe you can make the encounters more challenging by changing your tactics, customize it to the weaknesses of your group.
(also, to get more specific, how are their WILL saves? The fear effects of the Yeth Hounds in Thistletop are usually very effective at lvl 2 or 3. Two or three of them combined with Nualias channel negative energy ability should theoretically be challenging even for a group of 6 highly optimized characters.)
I think this is where my problem is. This group is typically house ruled to a 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll 1&2. Plus with all the extra bad guys I've thrown in, they hit level 4 after the first level of Thistletop.
I'll try boosting everything a CR or two until they catch back up to where the guide says they should be. Maybe even get them a level behind.
They have great stats and they're a bunch of power gamers (nothing wrong with that, but this adventure path was clearly not built for that) basically taking full advantage. I have learned much of eidolons... Knocking them back a few levels should help.
I know that feeling, I'm GMing a group of six experienced players with 4d6 drop lowest, reroll every stat lower than 8 through RotRL right now.
There is a guide for challenging encounters in the RotRL section of this board that works very well (at least until midway through book 4) Take a look at it.
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I'm pretty sure the summoner is the standard version. Anything I can do to neuter him without destroying the character he's so proud of?
The problem with the base summoner is that it's more or less a 9th level caster with a 6th level progression. He'll get spells at earlier access than other classes (hello haste at level 4).
If you want to change up the summoner without destroying it, make him use the unchained summoner spell list. It was redone to curb the early access to higher level spells.
By the end, RotRL is going to be testing everything they've got, so don't worry about the PCs feeling powerful at low level; they'll get theirs soon enough. I wouldn't worry about "this AP is not built for power players" since it's actually one of the tougher ones, just not at first.
This is accurate. Your players, being experienced and with good stat generation methods, probably won't find it too difficult until the last chapter of book 2. It does pick up in difficulty around book 4 I found.
Black Magga in book 3, somebody in the office had it out for PC's that day.
This is accurate. Your players, being experienced and with good stat generation methods, probably won't find it too difficult until the last chapter of book 2. It does pick up in difficulty around book 4 I found.** spoiler omitted **
They've been good so far but the characters are just obviously more powerful than the game was designed for.
You are correct. I would say that this group functions in the CR system at a level or more higher then indicated.
Ditch XP, and level them up at story points. This group should be a level behind, not a level ahead.I would recommend throwing in extra mooks in normal encounters, and being very careful with the boss encounters. Also, control the economy and crafting, etc. and don't over-equip the characters.
My answer is different, and probably not what you want to hear.
Fundamentally, your question isn't so much about Rise of the Runelords as it is a variation of a very common one on these boards: my players made super-optimized characters, and now I can't challenge them. What do I do?
Yes, there are about a billion ways you can make the encounters tougher. Templates, tactics, environments, more monsters, etc. You could max their hp, arbitrarily add 5 to their ACs and BABs. You could even (though I wouldn't recommend it, as players who are smart will figure it out) ignore all of the dice and just have the monsters fall over when you want them to.
But really the heart of the matter is that you and your players are in two different games. You're running the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path. They're playing in the "Super-Optimize Challenge Game." This doesn't mean anyone's at fault, as they might not have understood that published adventures are designed for a "normal" party of characters and that therefore the encounters will be too easy if everyone at the table has heavily optimized PCs.
So yes, you can do a lot of work to change the adventure path so it's harder, but I've learned the hard way from previous campaigns that it's better to sit down with the players before the adventure path and just be honest about what it is and what types of characters are appropriate to make it an enjoyable and challenging experience for everyone. I've been frank, for example, that although I'm not going to ban-hammer any official options, I would really appreciate it if they don't play a summoner with Leadership and a dozen NPC allies on the table. Reasonable people should understand why and cooperate.
The other side of your quandary is: is everyone having fun? If not, ask them to take some less than optimal but interesting and flavourful options as they level up, and promise them that although it might seem counter-intuitive, RPGs are a genre where having a worse (mechanically-speaking) character can actually result in everyone having a much better time . . .
Anyway, that's my 1.5 cents (I live in Australia, and the exchange rate is terrible!)
My party of a poorly optimized, but stupidly high-stat rolled Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror and Cleric facerolled almost all of the beginning of RotRL. The biggest challenge we had was with haunts, until we started late book 3 into book 4. Things got much harder after that.
I have to give a giant +1 to our Australian friend Jhaeman because he said two of the three things I had in mind while initially reading this thread.
1) This AP was just not designed for High Stat, High Optimized Play
2) Are they having fun anyway? Sometimes just straight up beastmoding through an AP can be a blast (not for me, but for some).
My only other point is more of a supporting argument to point 1 and a counter point to what many have said about the scaling challenge of this AP.
Many many people on these boards think RotRL is a killer, a hyper deadly AP. I just don't see it. Well not yet the last fight does look horrible but still. Let's say not for optimizers anyway.
I know this because I'm currently running RotRL. The party I'm running for is using a 20 point buy to control stats (although the AP might intend 15) and my friends are optimizers (as am I usually, it can be hard to turn off). I don't use XP, I level them only when the track says and their WBL is only 5% over (which is over but not by much). They are on book five and they've had one character death (which was more of a fluke than anything) and a couple of really close calls. It has only just started to get challenging for them and really only because they were not prepared for casters to just bust out prismatic spray as often as they do. I expect that next session they'll be more prepared. I've even maxed HP, added the advanced template, and occasionally added a few flat bonuses to attack, ac, saves, etc.
That creature someone mentions up thread? You're not supposed to even kill it, you're supposed to just hit it enough that it (already wounded from a different scenario) flees. My players killed it before it's second turn.
This is not to be disrespectful to anyone, especially not a really well put together and fun AP, but Optimizers who know the system well are going to have a fairly easy time, it's just the truth.
That creature someone mentions up thread? You're not supposed to even kill it, you're supposed to just hit it enough that it (already wounded from a different scenario) flees. My players killed it before it's second turn.
so, your group made 232 damage to a creature with AC 30, DR 15/cold iron and magic; Immune death effects, mindaffecting effects, petrification, polymorph; Resist acid 20,cold 20 and SR 26 in under 2 rounds? that's impressive, even for a highly optimized gro4up at levels 9 or 10 (depending WHEN the encounter takes place). Even considering the creature pops up right in reach for the melee attacks (which is a strange tactic, tbh), to get over that AC EVERY time at that lvl is nearly impossible, the SR is almost as high, so most magical ranged touch attacks should have problems too. And that's assuming the first attack of said creature wasn't Breath of Madness and 50% of your group isn't confused.
what exactly happend? how did your encounter go?
what exactly happened? how did your encounter go?
I am not sure about his encounter, but I remember mine. The breath of madness got half the group on the first go, and one of the players flew over to a nearby building to get range attacks on it. They neglected to realize how big the monsters threatened range was. So 1 full attack later left the player on the roof unconscious. I was really tempted to awesome blow them into the water, but decided against it.
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now that sounds more likely than killing the monster before its second turn
Regarding experience points: a lot of older players I've met really like the idea of tallying up xp, and would be really disappointed if the DM stopped doling it out and just informed them when they leveled up. They would feel it was the DM stealing some degree of player agency. If your players are at all like this, feel free to keep xp.
However, remember that there are three "tracks" for xp. You can decide which one to use, and if the players are complaining about things being too easy, suggest they switch to the hardest of the three tracks. You might be surprised, they might come on board with the idea.
Regarding making encounters more challenging: it's all about terrain and initial placement. Have your monsters be more aware of their surroundings and ready to use the terrain more to their advantage. Be sure that any spellcasters have 4-5 minor critters to run interference for them, so that they might have a chance to get off a spell or two. Also be sure to let adversaries run away, trigger traps (even if none are specified as such in the AP) or use other dirty tricks. Maybe you need to "up" your game.
Regarding your party: Druids with their animal companions are notoriously tough in the early levels. Same for Summoners (though IMHO they are so broken they count as two PCs rather than one). Be sure to enforce all the built-in limitations on summoners, and be sure to drag out the adventuring day so they can't go nova and rest, rince & repeat.
As said above, the first chapter of RotRL is meant to be a cakewalk, to get players in the feeling of being heros. Without any divine caster, they ought to have a bit more trouble in the Misgivings. Be sure to know your NPCs' and critters' abilities inside and out, and this party should eventually run up against situations they can't automatically win in the first round or two. I had my first near-TPK in Magnimar. It was so memorable!
Lastly, go to the RotRL forum and read the *tons* of advice for RMs available there.
Regarding experience points: a lot of older players I've met really like the idea of tallying up xp, and would be really disappointed if the DM stopped doling it out and just informed them when they leveled up. They would feel it was the DM stealing some degree of player agency. If your players are at all like this, feel free to keep xp.
Regarding your party: Druids with their animal companions are notoriously tough in the early levels. Same for Summoners (though IMHO they are so broken they count as two PCs rather than one).
As said above, the first chapter of RotRL is meant to be a cakewalk, to get players in the feeling of being heros. Without any divine caster, they ought to have a bit more trouble in the Misgivings.
I am a "older player" and I have enthusiastically joined the ranks of those who go for milestone levels. It also means that the guy who had to stat home with a sick child isnt penalized.
Yeah, Summoners are pretty broken.
Right.
wait, NO divine caster? Ok, that's gonna hurt bad later.
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Yeah, "hey guys, don't play summoners" is probably a reasonable step to combating any and all "my players are rolling everything in their path in this AP."
It may not fix the problem, but it's a step. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask players to play unchained summoners or spiritualists as a less outrageous version of the concept instead.
How varied are the point builds in your game? A 52 point buy is very powerful, considering the game, as you stated, is meant for 15. I let my players do 20, which is still more than the game is tuned for. I personally prefer point buy, and if we do rolling we try to make it an array after everything is rolled, so that way someone doesn't get a 10 point buy, and someone walks away with 48.
As for the summoner make sure they are following the rules for the eidolon correctly. It has a limit on the number of attacks in can have. If it is a problem, just talk to him about switching to unchained summoner, although it is a bit weaker than base summoner.
We definitely messed up making characters in not looking at what the game was designed for but rather than rip them up and start over I'm trying to work around it. Everyone seems happy with things so far, I'm just trying to bring a little competitive balance.
My campaign had a similar situation, if perhaps less extreme. They created characters on 25-point buy, but capped at 17 and 9 pre-racial mods. Then one of them became mythic (after Magnimar, and more would've been mythic too if they hadn't all died and had to be rezzed).
For me, balance was predicated on three things:
1) better monster tactics (as I said above)
2) more mooks to accompany any boss-tupes or spellcasters, and
3) keeping the whole party at least one level below the official target for the chapter.
So if you decide to do milestone leveling, I strongly suggest you apply a minus one modifier (or more) to the "suggested" character levels for a given chapter.
That creature someone mentions up thread? You're not supposed to even kill it, you're supposed to just hit it enough that it (already wounded from a different scenario) flees. My players killed it before it's second turn.
so, your group made 232 damage to a creature with AC 30, DR 15/cold iron and magic; Immune death effects, mindaffecting effects, petrification, polymorph; Resist acid 20,cold 20 and SR 26 in under 2 rounds? that's impressive, even for a highly optimized gro4up at levels 9 or 10 (depending WHEN the encounter takes place). Even considering the creature pops up right in reach for the melee attacks (which is a strange tactic, tbh), to get over that AC EVERY time at that lvl is nearly impossible, the SR is almost as high, so most magical ranged touch attacks should have problems too. And that's assuming the first attack of said creature wasn't Breath of Madness and 50% of your group isn't confused.
what exactly happend? how did your encounter go?
Hey we play like 6-8 sessions a year so that fight was like two and a half years ago, so I have no idea about the specifics. If you want to disbelieve me go right ahead. I was there, I know it happened. I know my friend was using his stupid Litany of Righteousness/Crit/Smite combo for his pally that he also used to one shot Barl Breakbones, I know I asked him to retire that character after that book because it was sucking fun from other players. I know I did use Black Maga's breath weapon, I don't remember it being a big deal. I mean reading it now, it's a poison and mind effecting effect, kind of easy to counter.
I'm just saying the AP's aren't written for powergamers, the OP is going to have a hard time with challenge given how he set the game up. That being said, as long as everyone is having fun it's not a problem. In my troupe for example my players don't seem to care if the campaign is easy or hard they only really care that their character feels like it's meaningfully contributing. Every group is different though and I think the OP should have a dialogue with his players about expectations for the game both from them and from him before he makes any meaningful change to his playstyle.
+1 to the Eidolon / summoner issues. Aside from early Haste access / pounce most often IME YMMV, is because the rules are not being followed. It doesn't matter if he's got the limbs for 10 attacks....the eidolon can't do that many...it's 3 at level 1 and 7 at level 20. Before haste fx, etc...of course.
Yep. We double checked the summoners builds every level, and they were always wrong. And we were doing the attack wrong also.