Race: Tiefling (Demon Spawn)
Class: Paladin (Sacred Servant, Oath of Vengeance)
Stats (20 point buy)
STR: 16 (+2 Racial)
DEX: 12
CON: 14 (+1 4th level)
INT: 10 (-2 Racial)
WIS: 8
CHA: 16 (+2 Racial)
FEATS:
L1: Noble Scion (War)
L3: Power Attack
Traits:
Lesser Noble
Armor Expert
Domain: Redemption
Using sword and board at the moment.
Would taking 3 or 4 levels into fighter be optimal? I am focused on the bonus feats it offer, as well as the movement bonus armor Training grants. Would the boons I get offset the paladin class items i'd lose?
It really depends on what you are looking to focus on with your character.
I'm sort of confused why an Oath of Vengeance paladin has taken Redemption domain. It sees a strange choice.
You aren't gaining anything in the way of skills. Taking levels of Fighter just gives the better movement rate, feats and Tower Shield proficiency. In exchange, you are delaying your access to the domain power and all spells. You could use Mithral Breastplate to get better movement.
It really depends on where you plan to go with this character. What (other than smiting) do you want it to excel at? Although a Paladin is always short of feats, their powers generally more than make up for it.
In previous editions multiclassing was a good way to increase your powers. In Pathfinder the opposite is true. Multiclassing generally is not worth what you give up. At most dipping a single level or two at the most is usually the most you want to do. Three to four levels is giving up way too much. In your case losing extra smites and spells is not worth a couple of feats. You also delay all the other paladins abilities like divine bond, call celestial ally and powerful justice. You also lose caster levels which means the spells you have are not as effective as they should be.
Race: Tiefling (Demon Spawn)
Class: Paladin (Sacred Servant, Oath of Vengeance)Stats (20 point buy)
STR: 16 (+2 Racial)
DEX: 12
CON: 14 (+1 4th level)
INT: 10 (-2 Racial)
WIS: 8
CHA: 16 (+2 Racial)FEATS:
L1: Noble Scion (War)
L3: Power AttackTraits:
Lesser Noble
Armor ExpertDomain: Redemption
Using sword and board at the moment.
Would taking 3 or 4 levels into fighter be optimal? I am focused on the bonus feats it offer, as well as the movement bonus armor Training grants. Would the boons I get offset the paladin class items i'd lose?
I wouldn't dip for feats. Paladins don't need many feats, since their class features more than make up for it. At best, you'll want things like Extra Lay On Hands (which would help with your Oath of Vengeance), which Fighter feats won't help in getting (though it will let you pick up other feats you may want without sacrificing regular feats for it).
You need to map out what it is that you're looking for in order for us to help out further, because at best we can suggest stuff, and it won't stick because we don't know what it is you want out of your character.
Well, I want to be a tank without loosing much movement.
What i'm getting, is that 4 levels is too much. So, 3 sounds good.
The reason Armor master sounds so good to me, is that I can move full speed with Mithral Full plate, and I only get a -1 to skills and +4 to Dex AC, which is perfect for a +6 belt.
The bonus feats would be for the shield, of which I have no room for in my current feats plans.
So, would these not help me as I think they would, should I just stick with plain pali?
It is not worth it to multiclass in this instance. It would make you less tanky than 3 levels better lay on hands would. If you want better movement there are better options than giving up 3 levels of paladin.
Given what your I've said about armor master, I also don't think it is worth it.
You are giving up 1.5 lay on hands and a mercy along with better spellcasting. If you want to move better in armor, look at the spell Effortless Armor or buy Mithral armor. You also have spells that can increase your AC. A few pearls of power so you can repeat the spells and you are rocking it!
Well, I want to be a tank without loosing much movement.
So movement is your concern. Gotcha.
For starters, running around with a +6 Physical Stats Belt, a Mithril Breastplate will give you all you need for defenses (since Mithril Breastplate will only have +4 MDB anyway), and you won't have any ACP to deal with. You also won't suffer any movement penalties, since it's a light armor in terms of movement (and sleeping). I'd suggest armors like an O-Yoroi, but because they're Heavy, it won't do you much good.
There's also the matter of the Comfort armor property, which reduces ACP by 1, allows you to sleep in it regardless of armor type, and also a flat gold cost, so it doesn't interfere with acquiring other armor properties.
Shield Feats aren't worth it, and are really designed for Fighters only based on pre-requisites. At best, you can get Shield Focus, which gives you +1 AC. By that point, you're better off getting Dodge, since that would apply to your Touch AC, which is much more valuable than regular AC.
You're already getting upwards of 2 AC from your shield, on top of other goodies like Fortification (critical hit chance reduction), that's plenty strong with very little investment. I'd focus on the other aspects of your character, such as boosting your to-hit/damage, so you become a major threat to the enemy (and thus make your defenses a worthwhile investment).
Feats you'll want to consider are ones like Reward of Life (add Charisma to HP whenever you use Lay On Hands; synergizes well with Fey Foundling, Tiefling Paladin FCB, and other goodies), Aura of Resolve (expands your aura, and makes your allies also immune to Fear), and so on. I'd actually go so far as to recommend the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat (the ability to cast things like Heroism, Haste, Expeditious Retreat, and other good buffs, are crazy good), but you can't fulfill those pre-requisites, so sad days. Also, Power Attack, because reasons.
I mean, if movement is all your concern is, then simply dipping a level into Bloodrager (make sure you pick the proper archetype and bloodline) will grant you Rage, +10 Movement (which effectively negates the movement loss from Heavy Armor, your biggest concern), and other benefits; and you won't lose out so much on your Paladin stuff.
Wow, thanks for all the options guys, you've been a really big help. If you're still interested, i'll post my level 12 build. Hopefully it's workable.
Again, thanks everyone.
If you're worried about speed, a dip in bloodrager might be cool. It also adds some spells to your use wand list of stuff. And bloodrage!
If you're worried about speed, a dip in bloodrager might be cool. It also adds some spells to your use wand list of stuff. And bloodrage!
By default, Bloodrager's Fast Movement doesn't work with Heavy Armor. Steelblood Bloodrager gets the ability to move faster in Heavy Armor (and Medium Armor), but you need a 2 level dip to get this going.
I was going to suggest VMC Fighter to get Armor Training and Weapon Training, but the Bravery (that you get first) is largely wasted on a Paladin unless you take an archetype that traces out Aura of Courage, and even then, you become REALLY feat-starved.
Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengeance can't stack
Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengeance can't stack
Unfortunately, I looked it over and it appears he's correct.
Sacred Servant replaces the Spells class feature, just as the Oath of Vengeance alters it in providing bonus spells. Based on the Archetype Stacking FAQ, even by adding (or subtracting) bonus options in relation to a feature, can result in archetypes not stacking.
Such is the case for Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengeance.
So, they don't stack, but based on the rules, you could start with an Oath of Vengeance, and then remove it for the Sacred Servant archetype if you fulfilled a pre-requisite stated by your oath (such as slaying the demon that killed your parents).
For 5,500 gp you can get the Boots of Striding and Springing and gain +10' enhancement speed.
It's a lot easier than a dip.
/cevah
Sacred Servant and Oath of Vengeance can't stack
Oops -- missed this. Saw "Cleric Domain" and the stuff that referred to Domain Powers, and got distracted from the spells that also adds. (If Sacred Servant added a Domain the way Inquisitors get it -- Domain Powers but no additional spells, it actually wouldn't cause a problem.)