What is in your Top 5 "Things to Change" list for Pathfinder?


Homebrew and House Rules

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I don't hate classes, but I'd prefer just a 2e Skills and Powers approach to building a PC. Just have a really large book containing all feats, skills, spells, abilities, etc to date and a point system to buy them with, with each type of ability costing a certain amount of points. You could start your campaign by allowing characters to have set amounts of points (like Mutants and Masterminds) and then use those points to build whatever you want. Yeah, that's the biggest change I'd make.

Right on. I want to see an unholy hybrid of Pathfinder with Mutants & Masterminds.

Actually this is on the table for advancement in my scratch built system, though not chargen (which has to account for races of different power levels). Though there are short feat trees and some have requirements, but that's because they build on other abilities similar to how spheres of power have talents that build on the base ability of each sphere.


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I've always had a bone with the equipment system. There's so much nitty gritty nonsense that feels like it's purposefully hanging on to the coat-tails of Chainmail. Maybe if you're in some extremely low gritty setting... but why would you use Pathfinder for such a setting?

Some of the skills could probably be rolled together the same way perception and spot/listen were. Disguise and bluff should be together and swim and climb should be together. Lets face it, Pathfinder characters are absolute dead weights when it comes to water and almost always resort to supernatural means of being in water, treating it the same as going to another plane of existence and feels awfully 'gamey'.

Speaking of rolling things together, classes should just all be rolled into archtypes. For example

Gunslinger, swashbuckler, cavalier come under the fighter umbrella.
Paladin, war priest, oracle come under the cleric umbrella.

I hate feats. Yep. Hate em'. There should be less and those less should do more. You know what feats I hate the most? The ones with the massive wall of text that describe what they do

Really dumb feat
Pre req: Halfling race, 14 wisdom, aligned to a lawful religion
Benefit: As long as your character ate a healthy breakfast this morning and moved 30 feet at the start of the round (not including difficult terrain) while gaining a high ground advantage of +1 this becomes +2 assuming it's a Tuesday and you've yet to use the letter E in conversation within the past hour. Also gives a +52 bonus on fortitude saves in cold environments where you can see the sun but not clouds and are wearing comfortable slacks (Actual player has to be at the table with slacks).

Normal: When you attack from high ground you get a +1 if you can be bothered to remember that and debate with the GM exactly what constitutes high ground in this occasion.

And finally. Get rid of all the niche elements of character creation. Get rid of favoured class bonuses, just give it to them or get rid of it all together. Don't roll for HP just have static class HP. What's the point of traits, they're just feats but you can only pick them at the start of character creation- what do you think your character will be in 5 levels? 20 levels? Traits are just bogus fluff.


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okay
#1.) The ridiculously overly complex lighting rules.

#2.) The completely deficient random treasure generation and horrendous cross referencing needed to use them AND the unhelpful monster statistic of Treasure: Standard.

#3.) The level of cross referencing needed for some monsters. Seriously,
Troglodyte>Stench>sickened. There went 5 minutes of table time. Just put the damn effect in the monster stats.

#4.) The warrior npc class. You're a fighter.

#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+


TheAlicornSage wrote:
Ahh, but not entirely. Sure some abilities really can't work in lower tiers, but most of them are fine. Some may require adjusting the numbers a bit (for example, spell damage) but mostly what makes high level superpowered is the numbers, most of which are things like dcs.

Not correct. 'Tiers of Play' are defined by WHAT the character is capable of, not the numbers that those actions are based on.

An easy example of 'God Tier' [levels 17-20] is Stopping Time. This is something that some characters can simply do when they reach this tier.

Another example is Creating their own world [Create Demiplane.]

Yet another example is Gate, the ability to send armies to a chosen location, or call a servant without any of the complexities or bartering or payment of the Planar Binding/Ally magics.

The only place the numbers reflect the tiers to some extent is in martials, whose increasing Hit Points and Damage allows them to have a somewhat greater impact and resilience against foes of lower tiers, but this at the level presently in the game is horribly underpowered when compared against the powers granted to spellcasters [especially full casters.]

Quote:
As for save-or-die effects, I'll be using something akin to The Alexandrian, the effects slowly manifest and thus several saves can be made.

If you're familiar with the Alexandrian, I hope you are also familiar with Calibrating Your Expectations?

When the party exceeds a certain level [be that level 4, level 6, level 8 or somewhere inbetween] they stop being human as we recognize it. If you don't cap magical abilities in that range but DO cap physical abilities in that range, you're taking the mistake of the D&D/PF devs and making it worse.

Quote:

Other problematic abilities can be fit in by changing how they are handled rather than outright banning them. I still think most abilities will fit as is.

What is the low level feel? What aspects of that are desirable?

While I like the grittiness of low level, I don't like just how limited it is in terms of how many abilities I get. Take casters, I find that 2-3 first level spells in a day feel far too few, more like a 1st year student than an adult that makes a living from it. And rogues have a trick or two and that is it.

This "tiny selection of abilities" is not something I want to keep.

If low level to you means "being starved of abilities" then I'm not looking to maintain that.

Low level to me means 'mundane and vulnerable.' It means subtle magic that would belong in Lord of the Rings rather than magic that belongs in Frozen or Wheel of Time.

Low level means that the Magic against Magic requires the Steel against Steel, because straight up steel without the special abilities that martials should be acquiring at high levels [see mythology, High level martials should be mountain busters at minimum]

Now, for the type of game you've described, I get the feeling that simply playing in the second tier I've identified [levels 5-8] might generate the sort of game that you're looking for. Creative GMing can produce all sorts of stories using monsters who- with their published stats- would not be viable enemies. Class levels for kobolds, powering-down ancient dragons, etc.

Alternatively, create your own game like you intend. Make it awesome dude.

Just... please consider scrapping the 'level' paradigm and spell level progression. Determine a level of power that is appropriate for your game and create a d20 game that plays at that level, using the types of magic and martial prowess which fits into that level of power/potential/vulnerability.

If you want advancement of some sort, then whip together something that allows lateral growth rather than upward growth. More spells known but no higher level spells or spell slots. More feats/powers/skills but not more BAB/HP.

You have the potential to create a game that is better than Pathfinder at the type of gameplay you want. Please don't repeat its mistakes.


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Cinderfist wrote:
#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+

First, level 17 IS Divinity. There's a 'Wizard 20 can match the feats of Jehova from Judeo-Christian Myth/History' thread somewhere on these boards. Most gods from Myth don't even require level 17 to emulate.

Second... why do you need a progression cap? Why can't GMs simply select the levels they want to play?

Is this about Adventure Paths dragging into later levels than you want to participate in?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Cinderfist wrote:
#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+

First, level 17 IS Divinity. There's a 'Wizard 20 can match the feats of Jehova from Judeo-Christian Myth/History' thread somewhere on these boards. Most gods from Myth don't even require level 17 to emulate.

Second... why do you need a progression cap? Why can't GMs simply select the levels they want to play?

Is this about Adventure Paths dragging into later levels than you want to participate in?

It was just a quick rattle off of an over arching change. The specifics would take over the thread.


Cinderfist wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Cinderfist wrote:
#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+

First, level 17 IS Divinity. There's a 'Wizard 20 can match the feats of Jehova from Judeo-Christian Myth/History' thread somewhere on these boards. Most gods from Myth don't even require level 17 to emulate.

Second... why do you need a progression cap? Why can't GMs simply select the levels they want to play?

Is this about Adventure Paths dragging into later levels than you want to participate in?

It was just a quick rattle off of an over arching change. The specifics would take over the thread.

That sounds like an interesting thread, any interest in making it?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Cinderfist wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Cinderfist wrote:
#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+

First, level 17 IS Divinity. There's a 'Wizard 20 can match the feats of Jehova from Judeo-Christian Myth/History' thread somewhere on these boards. Most gods from Myth don't even require level 17 to emulate.

Second... why do you need a progression cap? Why can't GMs simply select the levels they want to play?

Is this about Adventure Paths dragging into later levels than you want to participate in?

It was just a quick rattle off of an over arching change. The specifics would take over the thread.
That sounds like an interesting thread, any interest in making it?

Hehe I'd love to, but I am in the middle of writing the current chapter for my campaign this weekend. And I can't afford the time to get sucked down that rabbit hole :) So maybe later once I have enough written.

Shadow Lodge

TheAlicornSage wrote:
To answer DM Beckett's question of why I'm doing that,

I may have misread/misinterpreted what you said or meant, thinking you meant trying to stretch out level 1-3 or so over 40 levels.

Part of it is I'm just so sick of those level, almost to the point of wishing they where written out of the game, (my sweet spot), and the other was honest curiosity.


Cinderfist wrote:

okay

#1.) The ridiculously overly complex lighting rules.

#2.) The completely deficient random treasure generation and horrendous cross referencing needed to use them AND the unhelpful monster statistic of Treasure: Standard.

#3.) The level of cross referencing needed for some monsters. Seriously,
Troglodyte>Stench>sickened. There went 5 minutes of table time. Just put the damn effect in the monster stats.

#4.) The warrior npc class. You're a fighter.

#5.) I would like to see standard progression cap at 10th level. Then have an advanced/Epic book with a different progression for 11-20. Then one Path to Divinity for 20+

Number 5 is good. A lot of these not core classes should be turned into prestige classes that require only level 11 and a base class. Rogue could become ninja or swashbuckler, fighter could become anime champion, and cleric could become saint, then at epic, messiah. Wizard or sorcerer, mage, archmage. A lot of the classes contain stuff that becomes junk at higher levels.


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Oh yeah, I just remembered another gripe I'll have to list as #6.

Use the metric system so 97% of the people on the earth can understand your game better. :)

5 foot step becomes a 1.5 meter shuffle. Bam, game of the year right there.


Omg, I really hate metric. A good comprimise though, use a generic unit of measure, "one space" for example, then that unit can be considered to be whatever the gm needs, not to mention being scalable without altering mechanics.

For example, an american can consider "one space" to be 5' or 1 yard, while a european can consider it to mean 1 meter, while those playing ponies can consider it 3 yards/meters, while those playing Redwall can consider it 1 inch or 2 centimeters.

@kyrt-ryder

I never considered low level to be mundane, just vulnerable and more like what what real people can do. Of course magic has no basis in reality, and therefore can be scaled as powerful or weak as desired without impacting how plausible it is.

There is no particular reason to think that the ability to cast Gate or Stop Time (though I'd consider this a localized effect) means a character can somehow survive having a train dropped on them, nor that they can jump over tall buildings from mundane skill alone.

I will however require that a caster needs a major source of external power to create such an effect, such as several casters working together. It only makes sense that multiple casters together can create more powerful effects.

The ability for a single caster to match a martial's damage output though is not allowable. There must be a reason for swords to still exist, and I've decided that reason to be effeciency and speed.

Calibrating Your Expections is all about knowing what the numbers mean. With the mundane we have an available meterstick known as reality. For magic, there is no meterstick, thus we must make a meterstick.

I like high magic that is gritty/vulnerable. Thus I am working to make the magic meterstick reflect that.

There needs to be a balance between physical and magical, and most of that balance will come from how magic interacts with the physical. So while a mage could teleport from one place to another, she couldn't make herself immune, nor even very resistant, to physical attacks.

Having levels does not mean that bab/hp/saves/cl/etc advance every level.

Look at Savage Worlds, you gain levels (they call them "advances" but they are still levels, you still gain a generic improvement every X amount of xp earned), but you don't get a slew of numerical bonuses.

The same will apply to both my systems, you don't gain more bab/hp/saves/etc everytime you earn improvement.

In fact, hp and saves will be based on your core stats, not level, and thus will remain roughly the same throughout, no matter how many levels are gained.

As for spells, while I intend the simple mod to still make use of all spell levels (more power to the gms to utilize what they want, not less. These are guidelines for play, not hard, immutable laws), my setting won't even use magic spells as d20 knows them. Words of power are probably the closest to what I have planned, or perhaps Monte Cook's d20 WoD.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

I never considered low level to be mundane, just vulnerable and more like what what real people can do. Of course magic has no basis in reality, and therefore can be scaled as powerful or weak as desired without impacting how plausible it is.

There is no particular reason to think that the ability to cast Gate or Stop Time (though I'd consider this a localized effect) means a character can somehow survive having a train dropped on them, nor that they can jump over tall buildings from mundane skill alone.

Indeed, though those things [and things like Slicing a Mountain in half, or splashing the ocean into the moon, or tearing open a rift in the veil between dimensions] are things that allow a martial to develop into something that is actually of similar value to the caster they are adventuring with.

Quote:
I will however require that a caster needs a major source of external power to create such an effect, such as several casters working together. It only makes sense that multiple casters together can create more powerful effects.

I am not sure how you would make this work in a game which expects little overlap between party members. Are these sorts of effects intended to be limited to NPC groups?

Quote:
The ability for a single caster to match a martial's damage output though is not allowable. There must be a reason for swords to still exist, and I've decided that reason to be effeciency and speed.

This *works* but only for so long. There comes a point where no matter how much damage a mundane character can do, their mundanity means they aren't playing the same game as the magic users.

Take 3.P for example, I've GM'd for martial characters using a host of resources to get DPR well over 1,000 [over 5,000 in one case] and they were STILL immensely more difficult to handle as GM compared to a well-played Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Erudite.

Quote:
Calibrating Your Expections is all about knowing what the numbers mean. With the mundane we have an available meterstick known as reality. For magic, there is no meterstick, thus we must make a meterstick.

Making a meterstick for magic is indeed a step in the right direction.

Quote:
I like high magic that is gritty/vulnerable. Thus I am working to make the magic meterstick reflect that.

Older editions had an interesting angle on this, ANY damage during casting negating the spell, and casting consuming an extended period of time during which other characters can act to interfere without the need to be 'threatening' or the need to invest a host of resources to react without 'threatening.'

Quote:

There needs to be a balance between physical and magical, and most of that balance will come from how magic interacts with the physical. So while a mage could teleport from one place to another, she couldn't make herself immune, nor even very resistant, to physical attacks.

Having levels does not mean that bab/hp/saves/cl/etc advance every level.

Look at Savage Worlds, you gain levels (they call them "advances" but they are still levels, you still gain a generic improvement every X amount of xp earned), but you don't get a slew of numerical bonuses.

'Advances' has a very much distinct psychological impact compared to 'levels.'

'Leveling up' means to advance to a new level, a new state of being, to evolve into something greater than before.

Advancement, in and of itself, can be to any degree, be that a marginal degree of advancement, or advancement to a 'higher level' or anywhere in between.

Quote:

The same will apply to both my systems, you don't gain more bab/hp/saves/etc everytime you earn improvement.

In fact, hp and saves will be based on your core stats, not level, and thus will remain roughly the same throughout, no matter how many levels are gained.

This can work quite well, though it makes me question the need to have levels... which I'm not sure you've fully explained for me... the only answer I recall was 'because d20' which isn't an answer at all in my mind. Doing what you're doing is already taking the game out of the scope of a 'd20 compatible game' like d20 or Starwars Saga.

Quote:
As for spells, while I intend the simple mod to still make use of all spell levels (more power to the gms to utilize what they want, not less. These are guidelines for play, not hard, immutable laws), my setting won't even use magic spells as d20 knows them. Words of power are probably the closest to what I have planned, or perhaps Monte Cook's d20 WoD.

I'm not very familiar with Words of Power and not at all familiar with WoD so I can't comment on this, but I am glad to see that you're taking an active stance on modifying the magic system. Leaving it as-is while hard-capping martials to mundanity would be a travesty to anyone who cares about martial characters. [Now if you wanted to make it a game about playing magic users, that's another story.]


The simple d20 mod (I don't have a name for yet), will be using classes from d20. While the bab and such won't be used, the characters will still gain the class abilities, feats, ability score increases, etc from levels. The point of the simple mod is so that I don't have to make all that material from scratch. Just make a few basic rules and handle the special cases. Then the magic system, and possibly the health system, will be the core things that need the majority of content creation/manipulation, which is the biggest chunk of work.

Doing that also makes it easier for other gms to incorporate their favorite d20 material.

Words of Power and d20 WoD are basically systems where you choose an effect, duration, range, target, etc all separately, each adding to the total cost and/or difficulty.

Pure martials, frankly, in a world if magic, why would any combatant not know magic? A warrior is always searching for any advantage available. Magic is the prominant advantage regardless if how subtle or powerful it is. Just look at shaolin. They don't call it magic, but it basically is, and the warriors who have some form of that are normally the best. Spartans are the only exception I can think of (though I'm not a historian), and they basically had to train from childhood to the exclusion of all else to accomplish it.

Also, in encouraging versatility, when a warrior no longer can seek higher to-hit and damage, they start seeking other advantages. Invisibility for example, is an awesome thing a warrior would love to have.

Also, I never believed in that "everybody has a different role" thing.

For me, this is not a minitures combat game with story, it is an interactive story game.


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1. Caster/Martial Disparity
Easy first problem, difficult solutions. Perhaps have spells follow a linear advancement path instead of the strange advancement path it follows currently. Restricting spell lists (or number of spells prepared?) for non-spontaneous fullcasters might be a start. Perhaps learning a new spell (for Wizards) requires benching older ones for longer than a day. And divine fullcaster lists should be slightly more restricted - every new book with a divine spell makes divine fullcasters more powerful, with 0 investment from the caster. Maybe if each caster had two casting stats - perhaps 10 + 1/2 ( stat1 + stat2 + level ), or a separate stat for DCs and extra spells (spells known requires both stats?). But the primary problem is the disparity.

2. Magic/special material item necessity.
I'd prefer if magic items (namely the big 6) were not necessary for effective character advancement. Magic items aren't magical anymore- they're common. A Belt of Giant's Strength doesn't make you as strong as a giant, it makes you mildly more powerful martial. A Cloak of Resistance doesn't let you just shrug off certain kinds of attacks - it just makes you mildly harder to cast spells again. As a GM and player, I'd prefer a whimsical magical item over a catalog of generic small boosts.

3. Action economy
Namely, martial versus caster action economy. Casters don't require full-round actions for some of their best spells, why should martials? A mid-level caster can move and attack with 100% effectiveness. A mid-level martial can move and hit with maybe 33%-50% effectiveness. At high levels, that might drop down to 20% if you don't have a move-and-hit ability. Pounce is usually the work-around, but it would be nice if the system simply supported martial movement more, or required that most spells take longer than a standard action. Perhaps the ability to split your move action in half, then the option to half move + full attack, or full move + half of full attack. As for casters, perhaps most spells require a full round action, and those that don't are moderately less effective than full round action spells.

4. Feats. FEATS.
Every feat should be a meaningful choice, and should scale with level, or be powerful enough that later improvements are not necessary. Also, there should be no "need-to-take" feats, no "if only there was some way around this prereq" feats, and minimal flat bonus feats that only provide power, not options (Spell Focus, Weapon Focus, Skill Focus, etc.)

5. Consolidated to-hit and AC
The AC system is a bit messy. Being tied to armor bonuses, armor enhancement, shields, Dexterity, various magic items, and class features is awful. Combat maneuvers become useless or impossible against sufficiently high-level enemies. Similarly, touch AC and flatfooted AC are rather annoying. Flatfooted AC is a rare condition, while touch AC is only really accessible to casters, Gunslingers, and Alchemists. Perhaps adjusting caster and Alchemist bomb to-hit bonuses to match regular AC would work? Perhaps bonus AC and bonus to-hit based on if you're a combat class or not (BAB)? If AC was 10+BAB+Dexterity+armor+shield, and to-hit was 1d20+BAB+Strength, you could have a reasonable chance of hitting an equal-level enemy, especially if armor and shield bonuses did not increase.

Other Junk::

a. Skills
Some classes that need skills have none, some have increasingly (too) many as they level. Strength gets no love, while Knowledge is a huge mess.

b. The Fighter
If all the above goes through, the Fighter would still be a defensively poor class with few useful high-level options.

c. The Rogue
Ditto with the Rogue. Also, Sneak Attack is basically worthless against the number of immunities at high levels.

d. Caster half-effects
As a caster, I hate wasting a round. If caster effects had weaker full effects and stronger on-save effects, characters with Evasion-like abilities might be more valuable caster-killers. However, terrain changers should stay out of the 1st-3rd level spell list regardless.

e. Offensive save system
What rather bugs me is that casters get to choose from 8 (AC, Touch AC, Flatfooted AC, CMD, Will, Reflex, Fortitude, Spell Resistance) different defenses to attack against, while martials get 3, or 4 (AC, Touch AC, Flatfooted AC, and CMD) if they're lucky. Even worse, all the martial targets are derivatives of AC, so a super high AC creature can just tank it. I'd be interested if Will, Reflex, and Fortitude were sort of AC, and casters needed to make their own attack rolls against them. This would somewhat alter the consolidated to-hit and AC above, but would probably make the game more competitive. I'm not exactly sure how this would work, however. Maybe a Dex AC (Touch/Reflex), Con AC (Fortitude), Armor+Shield AC (AC), STR AC (CMD), and Wis AC (Will)? So if each AC was 10+relevant stat(s)+class bonus, where the class bonus followed the BAB progression (1/2, 3/4, or full), and to-hit bonuses were 1d20+attack stat+class bonus (1/2, 3/4, or full), the system could be more balanced. Although switching the burden of rolling from the defender to the attacker seems mostly inconsequential, it also opens up a much easier path to design an ability for martials to attack different enemy defenses. Hit die would be attached to the AC/CMD stat. In the end, you have two offensive numbers, and 5 defensive ones, and all of them are scaled to be reasonable to hit with a sword. For selected classes, it might look like:

Some Class:
Weapon Attack: (Weapon attacks and combat maneuvers use the same base progression, but use bonuses from different stats)
Spell Attack: (Used to determine attack bonuses with spells.)
AC+CMD: (AC and CMD use the same base progression, but get bonuses from different sources)
Fort: (Same as it ever was.)
Reflex+Touch: (Reflex and Touch are consolidated into a single defense)
Will: (Well, how did I get here?)

Cleric:
Weapon Attack: 3/4
Spell Attack: Full
AC+CMD: 3/4, d8
Fort: 3/4 (Down from a strong save- Clerics are already really good)
Reflex+Touch: 1/2
Will: Full

Fighter:
Weapon Attack: Full
Spell Attack: 1/2 (If you just happen to have a wand or scroll)
AC+CMD: Full, d10
Fort: Full
Reflex+Touch: 3/4 (Up from a weak save- Fighters need some love)
Will: 3/4 (Also up from a weak save)

Wizard:
Weapon Attack: 1/2
Spell Attack: Full
AC+CMD: 1/2, d6
Fort: 1/2
Reflex+Touch: 1/2
Will: Full

Rogue:
Weapon Attack: Full
Spell Attack: 3/4 (Magical Rogues are a thing, right?)
AC+CMD: 3/4, d8
Fort: 1/2
Reflex+Touch: Full
Will: 3/4 (Up from a weak save)

f. BAB and bonus attacks
Bonus attacks don't make a whole lot of sense. Instead of more attacks at a lower BAB, why not just more attacks? Attack bonuses would have to be adjusted, of course. Alternatively, perhaps not more attacks, but attacks which deal more damage, but avoid making a dozen rolls in one round. Spells would need to be adjusted accordingly.

g. Weapons/Armor
A bazillion weapons/armor, with a handful of clear "winner" options with big crit ranges, large damage dice, and maybe a special ability to sweeten the deal, which leads to a lot of people using weapons with strange names, and not the typical mace/flail/battleaxe you'd expect. I'd enjoy if all weapons (martial + exotic) were good and all weapons (martial + exotic) were similarly optimal. Similarly for things like the Haramaki. Oh, and if strangeness like the Iron Lamellar armor having a higher base AC than Steel was resolved, that would be great.


My Self:
I am old enough to remember when a Belt of Giant Strength actually gave you the strength of the giant it had in its name. IMHO they could go back to that model as well as provide simple belts of strength that provided bonuses like they do now so you could have both be viable magic items.

MDC

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1) Remove makes adventuring easy magic items.

2) Remove makes adventuring easy spells.

3) Revamp the trap system to make them a real threat again. Just using Perception and Disable Device on traps makes them boring and not really memorable.

4) Revisit hazards; the CRs are too high for most of them. Oh, and add more.

5) More flumphs. Flumphs in power armor, mutated flumphs, hive mind flumphs that have been twisted by cosmic horrors, mimic-flumphs, parasitic flumphs, and, of course, a kaiju space flumph (created by overexposure to a strange radiation found within the Drift) that emerges into regular space to rampage about with needles infected with Drift Zombie Plague...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My Self wrote:

1. Caster/Martial Disparity

Easy first problem, difficult solutions. Perhaps have spells follow a linear advancement path instead of the strange advancement path it follows currently. Restricting spell lists (or number of spells prepared?) for non-spontaneous fullcasters might be a start. Perhaps learning a new spell (for Wizards) requires benching older ones for longer than a day. And divine fullcaster lists should be slightly more restricted - every new book with a divine spell makes divine fullcasters more powerful, with 0 investment from the caster. Maybe if each caster had two casting stats - perhaps 10 + 1/2 ( stat1 + stat2 + level ), or a separate stat for DCs and extra spells (spells known requires both stats?). But the primary problem is the disparity.

2. Magic/special material item necessity.
I'd prefer if magic items (namely the big 6) were not necessary for effective character advancement. Magic items aren't magical anymore- they're common. A Belt of Giant's Strength doesn't make you as strong as a giant, it makes you mildly more powerful martial. A Cloak of Resistance doesn't let you just shrug off certain kinds of attacks - it just makes you mildly harder to cast spells again. As a GM and player, I'd prefer a whimsical magical item over a catalog of generic small boosts.

3. Action economy
Namely, martial versus caster action economy. Casters don't require full-round actions for some of their best spells, why should martials? A mid-level caster can move and attack with 100% effectiveness. A mid-level martial can move and hit with maybe 33%-50% effectiveness. At high levels, that might drop down to 20% if you don't have a move-and-hit ability. Pounce is usually the work-around, but it would be nice if the system simply supported martial movement more, or required that most spells take longer than a standard action. Perhaps the ability to split your move action in half, then the option to half move + full attack, or full move + half of full attack. As for casters, perhaps most spells...

They do all of this in 5th Edition.

1. Prepared spellcasters can prepare a number of spells per day equal to their class level + their spellcasting ability score modifier. There are no extra spells cast per day based on high ability scores. Spell attacks use the relevant spellcasting ability modifier instead of Dex. Save DC is character level based, not spell level based. Spells per day for 6+ level spells are limited to 1/day, so high level magic is special again.

2. Magic items are special again. You can only have 3 "special" magic items attuned to you, and because of bounded accuracy, you no longer NEED the big 6.

3. Action Economy is very balanced. Every character gets an action and a movement (and can be broken up by your action and/or bonus action), with a possible bonus action and/or reaction. At higher levels, martials can make multiple attacks using their action (PF version of Pounce/Spring Attack). This really balances out the Martial/Caster dichotomy. At 5th level, a fireball does 8d6 (but can be used a max of twice a day!), a sneak attack does 1d8+3d6+4 (which can be done once a round, but practically every round!), a pair of greatsword attacks does 2d6+4 + 2d6+4, and a cantrip does 2d8.

4. You only get feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19 (plus 1st if you're human, and a few more for fighters and rogues), but they're either very potent, or have 2 or 3 related abilities. And they're optional. The baseline is to get +2 or +1/+1 to an ability score (or scores). For a rogue, +2 Dex adds +1 to AC, initiative, half your skills, your "Reflex" save (Dex save), attacks, and damage, and the DC of any Dex-based special attacks you might have.

5. Bounded Accuracy does a lot for this concern. AC is 10 + Dex + Armor + Shield, or 10 + Dex + Con (if you're a barbarian) or Wis (if you're a monk). And there is no touch AC or flat-footed AC. Magic-users use their spellcasting ability score to make attack rolls, so a wizard's attack roll is based on Int and not Dex. BAB is replaced with your Proficiency Bonus, which scales from +2 to +6 over 20 levels, and is the same for all classes, so all ACs are balanced against all kinds attacks: melee barbarians, ranged rogues, spell-sniping sorcerers, etc. Saving Throws and Skill Checks are also based on the Proficiency Bonus, so spells and special attacks and skill challenges are also balanced.

Other Junk:

There are 6 kinds of Saving Throws: Strength, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha. Each class gets 2 good saves: One common (Dex, Con, or Wis) and one uncommon (Str, Int, or Cha). And with Bounded Accuracy, a really high non-Proficient save (like a fencing fighter with an 18 Dex (+4) can be comparable to a moderate Proficient save (like a bard with a 14 Dex (+2 +2 proficiency = +4).

EDIT:

Belts of Giant Strength DO change your Strength score! My dwarf Life cleric got one. Changed my Str from 14 to 23, so I didn't share it with the 20 Strength fighter or 22 Strength barbarian.

Also, all the fiddly little bonuses and penalties are replaced with the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic. This makes the math easier and a whole lot quicker! You can have 6 major battles in 4 hours instead of 2 moderate battles in 6 hours. It really makes things a lot more exciting. My group is 1 DM & 6 PCs, and 1 round of combat take 5 or 10 minutes, max (usually 5 or less).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Some things I would want in the Core Rules of PF.

1. Rules for getting drunk. PCs carouse.
2. Rules for other drugs and vices and stuff. Some PCs carouse a lot.
3. Rules for pregnancies. Some PCs carouse irresponsibly.
4. Rules for running businesses. Some PCs help other PCs carouse.
5. Better rules for falling. For example, how far does a PC fall in 1 round. How far do they fall in the following rounds? 9.81 meters per second per second/32 feet per second per second I know, but I really don't want to do the math myself. :-P


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SmiloDan wrote:
Also, all the fiddly little bonuses and penalties are replaced with the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic. This makes the math easier and a whole lot quicker!

Unfortunately it's oversimplification (which is basically the one word that describes everything wrong with 5e) and leads to some very silly scenarios with how they stack (or don't) and negate each other.

It's really a shame, because as you go through your post you describe a lot of the ways 5e fixes core problems with the 3.5/PF system.

But then 5e just guts all the good stuff about 3.5/PF and leaves this very sour 4e stink in the air.

Quote:
You can have 6 major battles in 4 hours instead of 2 moderate battles in 6 hours

If it takes you 3 hours to run a battle ( even 40 minutes is a bit long, honestly) there's something weird going on.


swoosh wrote:
Quote:
You can have 6 major battles in 4 hours instead of 2 moderate battles in 6 hours
If it takes you 3 hours to run a battle ( even 40 minutes is a bit long, honestly) there's something weird going on.

It doesn't take us three hours, but a level six (say) battle in PF generally takes us an hour at least. No way we could get any serious combat down to forty minutes. I think that's the principal reason PF doesn't work for us.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

In PF/3.5, a high level party (10+) of 6 or 8 can be really complex, especially against parties of opponents with class levels, too. Lots and lots of dice, lots of different kinds of spells, and magic items, and monster rules, and class abilities, and lots and lots of weird interactions.

Advantage/Disadvantage seems like an oversimplification on paper, but in actual play, it's the right amount of simplification. It's basically an application of "The GM's Best Friend" as the primary rule set for helping or hindering a character (PC or NPC). It's really elegant, and acts as both a mechanical function and emotional function (it feels good to have Advantage, it feels dramatic to have a Disadvantage--and it feels tragic to fail with Advantage and triumphant to succeed with Disadvantage!).


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SmiloDan wrote:

Some things I would want in the Core Rules of PF.

1. Rules for getting drunk. PCs carouse.
2. Rules for other drugs and vices and stuff. Some PCs carouse a lot.
3. Rules for pregnancies. Some PCs carouse irresponsibly.
4. Rules for running businesses. Some PCs help other PCs carouse.
5. Better rules for falling. For example, how far does a PC fall in 1 round. How far do they fall in the following rounds? 9.81 meters per second per second/32 feet per second per second I know, but I really don't want to do the math myself. :-P

Also note 3.1: Rules for child support. Some PCs cover up their carousing poorly.


Just one thing, Rule 0 should be printed at the top of every page.


SmiloDan wrote:

Some things I would want in the Core Rules of PF.

1. Rules for getting drunk. PCs carouse.
2. Rules for other drugs and vices and stuff. Some PCs carouse a lot.
3. Rules for pregnancies. Some PCs carouse irresponsibly.
4. Rules for running businesses. Some PCs help other PCs carouse.
5. Better rules for falling. For example, how far does a PC fall in 1 round. How far do they fall in the following rounds? 9.81 meters per second per second/32 feet per second per second I know, but I really don't want to do the math myself. :-P

3. For humans, it's 1 in 20. I've always rolled a D20 and had a nat 20 mean pregnancy.

4. Profession merchant gives bonuses for trade. Haggling could be a feat. Is it already?


Daw wrote:
Just one thing, Rule 0 should be printed at the top of every page.

Even better, just get rid of every rule except rule 0, and leave the rest of the book blank. And every supplement can be completely blank. It still costs $50 a copy, though, because anyone who deserves to be playing a tabletop game can create a system that's way better than Pathfinder, just because Rule 0 is printed in a Paizo book.


I wouldn't say EVERYONE...

... but maybe 10-20% of GMs can.


Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
Daw wrote:
Just one thing, Rule 0 should be printed at the top of every page.
Even better, just get rid of every rule except rule 0, and leave the rest of the book blank. And every supplement can be completely blank. It still costs $50 a copy, though, because anyone who deserves to be playing a tabletop game can create a system that's way better than Pathfinder, just because Rule 0 is printed in a Paizo book.

The time it would take to homebrew a balanced, better system than Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.5 is much longer than the time it takes to learn how to play Pathfinder. And the number of people who share the Pathfinder/3.5 system is much higher than the number of people who know your specific homebrew.


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My Self wrote:
Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
Daw wrote:
Just one thing, Rule 0 should be printed at the top of every page.
Even better, just get rid of every rule except rule 0, and leave the rest of the book blank. And every supplement can be completely blank. It still costs $50 a copy, though, because anyone who deserves to be playing a tabletop game can create a system that's way better than Pathfinder, just because Rule 0 is printed in a Paizo book.
The time it would take to homebrew a balanced, better system than Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.5 is much longer than the time it takes to learn how to play Pathfinder. And the number of people who share the Pathfinder/3.5 system is much higher than the number of people who know your specific homebrew.

You missed his subtle use of alias, I take it?

More seriously (and back on topic), improvement is made through application, experimentation and adaptation. Sitting on our laurels and embracing "the way things are and must always be" is comfortable as everyone knows what to expect and there are no surprises, nor the uncomfortable feeling of having to learn something, but it also means that problems and quibbles that exist right now will continue to do so.

Refinement of a system or concept (which is what this thread is mostly about) is made through small steps; Trying to iron out the bugs and inconsistencies of a system to produce something that is better, while still being mostly the same concept. Examples of this are things like 3.0 to 3.5, and 3.5 to Pathfinder. Constant improvement and refinement.

Innovation is throwing out the old system and building something new from scratch. Certainly, the "Clean Slate" approach has an appeal, but it also has the fundamental problem that it creates entirely new problems that need to be progressively ironed out over time. And that is before touching on the users having to 'start over'. Innovation isn't a bad thing... but it's a tough and problem-prone process and hard to pull off and market successfully. Examples of this are 2nd AD&D to 3rd Edition (which warranted a release as 3.5 relatively soon after), or the release of 4th edition.

Refining Pathfinder is something that I am a big fan of, and believe can be done on an individual basis - GMs are doing so all the time via their own house rules. If done carefully, it also maintains compatibility with published products, allowing for the (rather vast) library of adventures, adventure paths and scenarios to be used with it.

Tossing out Pathfinder and developing an entirely new system from scratch? Well, you most certainly can, but at that point it is a different game, and you start competing not only with Pathfinder, but Fate, Burning Wheel, True D20, Mini-Six and every other indie system out there. Doable? Certainly, but very hard work both creating it and getting it out there.


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Made my perception roll to notice kyrt-ryder's context, but missed my Sense Motive on the Sarcasm Dragon. I'm going to roll 2d10 embarrassment damage now.


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My Self wrote:
Made my perception roll to notice kyrt-ryder's context, but missed my Sense Motive on the Sarcasm Dragon. I'm going to roll 2d10 embarrassment damage now.

Don't forget to add your Shame modifier to your damage roll...


Back on topic, the lists so far have given me a lot of things to look over in terms of making Pathfinder a better experience.

Keep the lists coming; so far, they're doing great, and I've learned quite a bit. Here's to hoping we get more.


My Self wrote:
Made my perception roll to notice kyrt-ryder's context

Do please go on.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
My Self wrote:
Made my perception roll to notice kyrt-ryder's context, but missed my Sense Motive on the Sarcasm Dragon. I'm going to roll 2d10 embarrassment damage now.
Don't forget to add your Shame modifier to your damage roll...

I'll probably have to also take double damage because of Vulnerability to poorly-considered comments.


My inbox is always open if you're concerned about drawing too many Attacks of Opportunity.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I would like to see wizards get something like the magus's arcane pool. A way to boost spell effects and/or re-cast spells.


^This sounds like a job for the Arcanist, or to get closer to home, Exploiter Wizard. Arcane Reservoir out of the box lets you boost spells, and the Arcane Exploit Potent Magic improves the boost. Arcane Reservoir doesn't directly let you use points to recast a spell (unless you are a 20th level Arcanist, although in that case you usually don't need to), but the Arcane Exploit Quick Study gets you part way there by letting you change out spells in 1 round.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ooh, that mention of criticals reminds me I'm adding exploding criticals. Confirm a crit and it's x2 (or whatever) confirm the crit with a crit, x4, confirm with a crit again x6, etc

Imagine the excitement at the table for an exploded crit!

Only the first crit roll will use an expanded crit range, all subsequent rolls will use the crit range of the weapon type.

Sovereign Court

SmiloDan wrote:

I would like to see wizards get something like the magus's arcane pool. A way to boost spell effects and/or re-cast spells.

Not me I dont want to get into samey territory with classes.

Shadow Lodge

While I've already given my list, a few other things I've either done in the past with d20 games in general or with my non-PFS PF games are:

a.) have a Feat similar to Toughness for Skill Points. <I understand one of the newer NPC books contains something like this, but I haven't seen it, and not sure if it's either true or works for my purposes>

b.) allow Feat options to add 1 or 2 Skills to your Class Skill list. This worked a lot better in 3E's Skill Systems than it does for Pathfinder.

c.) allow things like Keen and Improved Crit to Stack, and also allow for similar options to increase a Weapon's Crit multiplier, but, with the assumption that no weapon can ever get better than a 15-20 Crit Range, or a x4 Multiplier. The reason I allow this is to help encourage folks to go with weapons more for flavor than straight mechanics, but even this isn't perfect for that.

d.) I also like to allow small discounts on prices based on Charisma or Diplomacy ranks.

e.) I'd also like to add in crits for things like Cure Spells when healing.

Silver Crusade

@Beckett

Cunning from Villian Codex. You gain 1 additional skill point per HD you have and gain 1 additional one for every HD after.

Ish good feat :3

Also regarding e) you can, you just have to forgo the auto "hit" and make a normal touch Attack. Getting a critical somehow without doing that would be Nice though :3


Ross Byers wrote:

1. I'd put the cleric and druid on the 1/2 BAB track. I'd put the monk and rogue on the full BAB track (basically, spellcasting progression and BAB should be strictly inverse. +1 and no/4-level casting d10/d12, +3/4 and 6 levels of casting d8, or +1/2 and 9 levels of casting d6).

4. Fix sorcerer bloodline/oracle mystery spell progression so that they get their bonus spell on the Wizard/Cleric progression. A fire-bloodline sorcerer should not be waiting until level 5 to cast scorching ray or level 7 to cast fireball. It is however, cool that a 5th level Fire sorcerer's only 3rd-level spell known is fireball.

5. Make bows 'exotic' weapons.

I like all of these.

What I dont want is changes that would require a "2nd edition".

I want the Pathfinder Design Team to spend more time on FAQ. Answer any that have been truly Frequently Asked. At least one a week, maybe more. Stop spending time of stuff not out and fix the stuff that we have already invested money on. They owe it to their customers.

Get rid of points back for dumping. You wanna have a CHA of 6? Then go ahead, it's free.

Keep Vancian, it's classic. And if you dont like it, there's the Sorcerer and the Arcanist and others.


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John Mechalas wrote:


2. Dump Vancian. It never made any sense and yet it persists.

It is likely the 2nd most popular system in Fantasy books, and second only to "magic makes me tired" which very very few games systems use. Most use spell points.

Of course spell points makes spellcasters even more powerful. Hardly what this game needs.


Hey look, another thread where I get to be the token 4e defender! Just want to point out that pretty much every "they fixed this in 5e" that's been brought up was actually fixed in 4e and then arguably not unfixed switching to 5e.

Both martial/caster disparity and the 5-minute workday go away with the AEDU system. Yeah, it's possible for everyone to blow all their daily powers and insist on resting after every encounter, but that's not a widely disparate problem across classes. Everyone can do it or no one can do it.

Feats aren't there to gate actions, they either improve the likelihood of success, or improve the result. You don't need Mounted Combat to fight from horseback, you want it to gain bonuses to doing so.

Plus, you have the simplified action economy of standard, move, minor. Any continuous effects cost a minor action to maintain.


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DrDeth wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:


2. Dump Vancian. It never made any sense and yet it persists.

It is likely the 2nd most popular system in Fantasy books, and second only to "magic makes me tired" which very very few games systems use. Most use spell points.

Of course spell points makes spellcasters even more powerful. Hardly what this game needs.

I would argue that Vancian Magic is actually a fairly obscure magic system in the modern day; it's stayed in D&D as an awkward dinosaur that's always been there but it's not really reflective of how magic works in the vast majority of popular fantasy literature and basically NEVER reflected in film or TV. Sympathetic magic, blood magic, spiritualism, mana, ancient languages that alter reality, pretty much all of these spring to mind before "prepared spells that do one specific thing and take up a certain amount of space in your brain" when you say "magic" to most people. D&D doesn't even do the Vancian model very WELL, particularly not in 3rd Edition, because using more powerful magic is supposed to restrict how much magic you can use at all but your average wizard at level 20 can prepare 4 Time Stops and still have no space issues with the 24 other spell slots he gets before you factor in his bonus spell slots from his arcane school and intelligence modifier. At least in 5th edition a wizard doesn't get bonus spells from anything and can only cast an 8th or 9th-level spell once. If you're using a vancian system you should not at your base level be able to cram in the EXACT SAME NUMBER of world-shattering cosmic power spells and the piss-weak little parlor tricks you could do at level 1, and everything that you learned in between.

Spheres also contradicts your point that spell points make casters more powerful if you're not using the same baseline assumptions as the magic system 3rd edition gave us. If you have a fairly limited energy pool that applies to ALL of your magic except your cantrip-level stuff that means you can't go hog-wild the way spell slots let you do if you have even a basic understanding of resource management.

"Well, this situation probably doesn't merit using my awesome Meteor Swarm, but I've got like seven fireballs I wasn't planning on doing much with anyway. I'll just bathe the battlefield in fire."

Past level 9 or 10, even on the fairly limited Arcanist, whose frankly INSANE power level is only moderately balanced out by getting the worst of both worlds in spell slots and spell progression, basically has no worries about running out of spell slots in an average adventuring day unless they are extremely wasteful. Mana pools, not so much, particularly if you're not charging 1 spell point both to lift an object and carry it over to you or drop a frigging meteor on someone. Powerful and complex magic can become much more expensive and therefore LESS LIKELY TO BE SPAMMED on a mana pool system while a simple understanding of your spreadsheet in the vancian system can often let you cheese the hell out of your spell slots.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:


2. Dump Vancian. It never made any sense and yet it persists.

It is likely the 2nd most popular system in Fantasy books, and second only to "magic makes me tired" which very very few games systems use. Most use spell points.

Of course spell points makes spellcasters even more powerful. Hardly what this game needs.

I would argue that Vancian Magic is actually a fairly obscure magic system in the modern day; it's stayed in D&D as an awkward dinosaur that's always been there but it's not really reflective of how magic works in the vast majority of popular fantasy literature and basically NEVER reflected in film or TV. Sympathetic magic, blood magic, spiritualism, mana, ancient languages that alter reality, pretty much all of these spring to mind b

Yep, not in popular fantasy literature, just: Roger Zelazny's The Chronicles of Amber, pTerrys Discworld,Lawrence Watt-Evans,Diane Duane,Patricia C. Wrede, Glen Cook, .......

"Sympathetic magic, blood magic, spiritualism" are just names for types of magic, not systems of magic. You can & do have Vancian Blood Magic.

Basically in Fantasy Literature, if you have someone actually casting a spell there and there, it works by either making them tired, by Vancian or has no real limits at all, it just happens.

Mana or spellpoints is the most popular in games- but rarely shows up in Fantasy lit. Not never, but it's far more rare than Vancian.

Running out? Ah come on, it's not running out of spells that's the issue, at high levels you have 2-3 round battles, and only as many as you want before you Tport back.

Mana casters dont have to spam, they just burn all their SP in 1-2 rounds of super mindblowingly powerful spells, tport back, recharge, wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.

You're talking to the guy who has seen it all. They had "spell points" in many games and even ( disguised as Psionic Power points) in earlier D&D ed. So easy for them to take a spell, buff it seven ways and burn 1/3 of the PP in one round. Meanwhile the wizard could go out for pizza....

In any case PF has lots of non-Vancian casters. Anyone who doesnt like Vancian can play one of them.

Saying "get rid of Vancian I dont like it" is like saying "get rid of divine casting, I dont like it. It's OK, you dont wanna play a cleric, play something else. PF does that for you.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

To keep it down to 5 I'm going to need to get very extreme:

1. Drop Pathfinder's system. Replace with Fantasy Craft.

2. Convert Spheres of Power to work with FC.

3. Get rid of leveling via XP progression.

4. Simplify grappling.

5. Convert Dreamscarred's Akashic to work with FC.

Then- play fantasy craft, who is stopping you?

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