Hi folks,
My elven wizard just died at Thistletop and now I need to roll-up a replacement. I thought I'd seek advice from folks who've played through Rise of the Runelords on character builds that map well to the challenges in the AP.
Current Level = 3
- Half-elf Rogue (TWF)
- Human Druid (going for a melee build)
- Human Ranger (Archery focused)
18, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12 - Can be arranged to taste
Mystic Theurge - based on a Wizard/Cleric chassis. I feel like this is the sort of build that the party needs, but I've heard that it's terrible!
Arcanist - I've heard this AP is a dream for spellbook casters, and my rolled ability scores align well for this. With a natural 18 I'm not really limited in the build - could go blaster, SoS, summoning, or generalist.
Bard - with so many attack-focused allies, IC will get well-used. I've also heard this AP aligns well with Bards (although I'm not sure how). I'd be able to fill in for support and a bit of healing, but we'd be missing a primary arcane caster at the higher levels. Given that I've only got 1 high stat, I'd probably focus on ranged support as much as possible, and take a back seat for direct combat contribution.
Shaman - dedicated healer + support character. As my physicals will be lowish, I'd focus on using my familiar and buffing hexes to provide ranged combat support.
I'm open to new suggestions for builds that would help the party's survivability and be positioned well to contribute to what challenges lay ahead in RotRL. My thoughts are that the party is lacking in healing, arcane, and general support. This has already bit us, hence the dead wizard. (A fear effect split the party. Panicked characters ended up pulling in other enemies from adjacent rooms. No one had fear mitigating abilities.)
Any RotRL veterans out there have advice?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
RotRL is possibly one of the tougher APs, I'd rate it up with Reign of Winter. That said, I honestly prefer wizards over arcanist with one caveat
If you want to be a blaster focused caster, arcanist is easily the best suited with its plethora of blasts not dependent on spell slots. This lets you blast mooks, and save the bigger nukes for the Boss fights.
Its been years since I played it so the detials are fuzzy, but I do remember it being a hay-day for wizards, particularly in the later books.
Bard would be my second recommendation.
All this said, perhaps a cleric? Clerics are loads of fun and quite versatile.
a cleric focused on support would be decent, and you wouldn't need to worry much about a high wisdom score if all you focused on where buffs/healing.
We did it in a 5th Edition conversion, but we found tanks and blasters really useful.
It looks like your frontliners are the druid and animal companion. And you're lacking a bit of healing and condition removal.
Maybe go paladin?
Or maybe a version of shaman or oracle with an animal companion?
My cleric of Life dwarf
A human divination wizard blaster
An elf rogue (arcane trickster) archer/skirmisher
A human ranger (hunter) archer
A half-orc barbarian (berserker)
A human two-weapon wielding fighter (eldritch knight)
Converted to modern PF sensibilities (we were still playing 3.5 at the time,) our party was/would have been:
* Elf Investigator (Empiricist)
* Elf Slayer (Archery/Empty Quiver)
* Human (Shoanti) Barbarian
* Human (Varisian) Necromancer
* Catfolk Medium
* Warforged (there's no good replacement for Warforged) War priest
Of that configuration, I'd consider that our greatest strengths were that we had:
* A strong frontline (your druid)
* A good ranged martial (your ranger)
* A skill monkey (your rogue)
* A full arcane caster
And I'd give our full caster a pretty fair shake of the credit, so I'd lean towards filling that role again.
FWIW, we *also* lost a character at Thistletop (our barbarian) and had them ressed.
Not to be too mercenary about it, either, but it would make sense that the surviving party would be looking to replace their lost companion with someone with a similar skill set.
You might also consider the witch... She's a full arcane class and she can help a bit with healing if your party really needs it. The debuffs are wonderful, just pick your hexes carefully.
Thanks for all the responses.
Given the testimonials, I'm leaning to arcanist or wizard. I might even sprinkle in White Mage or the Pact Wizard (From HH) to get a dash of support.
I'm curious about the survivability of the party without a dedicated healer/support person. Is this AP going to be lethal without one?
My Life cleric (in 5th Ed.) was often overwhelmed with healing. But I was the only healer in a party of 6 (the ranger helped a little....mostly healing me from 0 so I could heal everyone else....).
I know! I know! You're not supposed to do in-combat healing, but sometimes you really really have to! It really depends on encounter design and which version you're playing.
You're lacking a buffer.
If the Druid is going melee who's gonna cast some buffs?
The druid is at the same time the front liner and divine buffer.
I'd play an Evangelist Cleric. You get inspire courage which with your party would come in handy. Channel Energy for emergencies.
You're lacking on the Arcane side, but you could always find a way around it with UMD.
If you're going Arcane class, well, depends on how good your party is:
You can't go wrong with Arcanist > Occultist, Summons as Standard action is great, will help a lot in melee if you get swarmed or just need more friends to help with.
As long as you don't get too many 3+CHA exploits you should be good.
If you want to be really annoying you can always go with an Improved Familiar for casting buffs.
A wand of Haste is extremely cost efficient for its 4 rounds duration, even more when cast by your Familiar.
The downsize of Arcanist is getting spells 1 turn later, that could hurt a lot.
Augment Summoning, you can't never go wrong with this, depends on what do you think your role you should be.
You were in the party, are you guys lacking damage, Crowd control, Meat shield, maybe buffs that will speed up encounters?
Sin Magic Specialization is cool if you want more spells, but comes at a high cost.
Elemental Schools are good too, Air gives Fly at will a level 10 for example.
Bard is also an option, but I feel an 18 would be kinda lost on CHA, you could go 18 DEX, 14 CHA, kinda squishy on the CON side, and assist with ranged attacks.
I think you're right: buffing is a gap. Making sure the damage-focused characters can have their jam when faced with challenges that pull out their teeth.
The party doesn't seem to lack for damage (between our beefcake Druid, animal companion, ranger with reliable hits, and rogue who has belted out 30+ damage @ level 3 when full-round TWF flanking). However, if circumstances are less than ideal (flying attackers, tricky terrain, DR, enemy casters, the party's effectiveness drops off a cliff.)
When fighting the flying Quasit, the druid, animal companion, and rogue were essentially out of the fight as it was never in melee range. That left the wizard and the ranger. Only when my wiz got close enough to land a color spray did it descend and get torn up.
However, the group doesn't have a lot of staying power. Our druid & bear are the closest things we have to tanks, and they seemed to need a healing backpack due to low-to-middling AC (my last wizard filled this with UMDing a Wand of CLW). A future character with UMD (or familiar for that matter) could also provide some trickle-healing.
I'm digging the recommendation for summoning, as I think that might also help with "healing" problems - by providing meatshields for the enemies to pick on.
I'm leaning toward a wizard (or arcanist) focused on summoning and buffs. I'll appoint my familiar as the party UMD-healer.
We had a Sorcerer for the arcane spell support. You really want that. But a bard could turn out really fun. He can heal and cast haste!
I'm leaning toward a wizard (or arcanist) focused on summoning and buffs. I'll appoint my familiar as the party UMD-healer
The only "issue" with this is having all the summons ready. Takes time to get them ready and you need to know what they do, how and what abilities they have.
Many websites do not count Augment Summoning for Special Abilities, so you find yourself that a 14 DC is low, but with Aug Summoning due to +4 STR/CON it ends up being 16, which is fairly respectable for a summon.I personally LOVE summoning, but until Paizo or someone finds a way to keep them really updated I'm trying not to use them.
Right now my Wizard is a Conjuration Teleportation with Summons, but takes sooo much time.
On the other hand it's nice when you pull out an Earth Elemental with +8 to hit dealing 1d6+11 for damage xD
I would suggest an Arcanist or another Wizard. This AP really rewards spellbook using casters.
Yep, and full casters.
Maybe an Evangelist cleric focusing on summoning? You summon, your druid friend summons, and then you buff--affecting you, the druid, his companion, the rogue and ranger, and all your summoned critters! :-D
|
Here is another suggestion.
Class: Conjurer. Race: Android.
Using the feat Acadamae Graduate (Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, 10) you can summon as a standard action. And then just add a variety of summon based feats to buff them.
You have access to many of the best buff spells in the game here.
Now for the healing part.
That is much harder to get onto a wizard unfortunately. Here are a few ways to do that.
Infernal healing and Greater Infernal Healing. Fits into the Acadamae Graduate theme.
The prestige class Magaambyam Arcanist. Will allow you to add 10 druid spells to your spell list. However they are one level below your current spell level. I guess you could retrain this class feature at higher level. Though then I would suggest getting good at dodging the Core rulebook your GM will throw after you.
Some of the higher level have cure spells available to them. And will in general be able to heal for a lot more bang for your buck (total hp healed through the spell not right away) than casting a similar level cure spell.
Calling outsiders with cure spells. At Planar Binding you have access to a few nice ones with good At-will healing abilities. If you can keep your team alive for that long with CC.
|
I would go arcanist with the white mage archetype for backup healing/status removal. A druid by itself just doesn't cut it in that department. I will give you a word of advice on this AP. If your DM runs it straight from the book, starting at level 7 or so, you can expect one or two pc deaths per session barring some extreme optimization and/or amazing luck. Good luck.
If your DM runs it straight from the book, starting at level 7 or so, you can expect one or two pc deaths per session barring some extreme optimization and/or amazing luck. Good luck.
I read this so often, but it's just not true. We're almost through the AP and only had to really resurrect once or twice. The cleric had to cast Breadth of Life a few times and we had to stabilize several PCs that had negative hp at the end of a fight, but that's it. We run either by the book when 4 players are at the table, or the community-updated 6 player version when 5 or 6 players are playing. We have (95%) core-only races and classes.
It is a very well balanced AP. Some groups just seem to have a very reckless playstyle.|
|
If your DM runs it straight from the book, starting at level 7 or so, you can expect one or two pc deaths per session barring some extreme optimization and/or amazing luck. Good luck.I read this so often, but it's just not true. We're almost through the AP and only had to really resurrect once or twice. The cleric had to cast Breadth of Life a few times and we had to stabilize several PCs that had negative hp at the end of a fight, but that's it. We run either by the book when 4 players are at the table, or the community-updated 6 player version when 5 or 6 players are playing. We have (95%) core-only races and classes.
It is a very well balanced AP. Some groups just seem to have a very reckless playstyle.
I've seen what this ap can do. You guys are either very lucky or the DM is taking it easy on you and you just aren't aware of it.
|
I've seen what this ap can do. You guys are either very lucky or the DM is taking it easy on you and you just aren't aware of it.If your DM runs it straight from the book, starting at level 7 or so, you can expect one or two pc deaths per session barring some extreme optimization and/or amazing luck. Good luck.I read this so often, but it's just not true. We're almost through the AP and only had to really resurrect once or twice. The cleric had to cast Breadth of Life a few times and we had to stabilize several PCs that had negative hp at the end of a fight, but that's it. We run either by the book when 4 players are at the table, or the community-updated 6 player version when 5 or 6 players are playing. We have (95%) core-only races and classes.
It is a very well balanced AP. Some groups just seem to have a very reckless playstyle.
Personally, my group have steamrollered the non-Giant minion encounters, but have struggled with the boss encounters (which is just as it should be, imo).
We've had occasional protracted fights with end-of-adventure enemies that the group have scraped through with multiple Wands of Cure Light Wounds and a Bard and a Druid who are willing to cast the occasional Cure spell.
That said, I can't say that when the group gained their Cleric that their battles weren't a lot less risky - they became noticeably easier and less likely to be accidentally one-shot in the next fight.
In our 5th Ed. conversion of RotRL, we almost always had someone drop to 0 in every fight. My dward cleric died-died twice; once he got rezzed by scroll from a local church, the other time the PCs bargained with a balor-succubus to get me rezzed. Which is ironic, since my guy was the guy designed to heal and rez everyone.
|
|
In our 5th Ed. conversion of RotRL, we almost always had someone drop to 0 in every fight. My dward cleric died-died twice; once he got rezzed by scroll from a local church, the other time the PCs bargained with a balor-succubus to get me rezzed. Which is ironic, since my guy was the guy designed to heal and rez everyone.
That sounds about right. When our group played it, I will be the first to admit that we were not optimized, and several players really didn't know what they were doing,so that, obviously contributed to the meatgrinder effect. That being said, there were so many encounters where it definitely appeared that better optimization or tactics could have done little more than prevent a death for a round or so. The damage that was being pumped out by the giant's and dragons was just unreal. I know one time I went from almost full to -117 in one round. There were also encounters towards the end where half the party got hit by prismatic spray before we could even act. Not a lot you can do for that, unless you have a way to give everyone monster saves or give them spell resistance all day.
5th Edition is a different system, but we had some pretty optimized PCs. The ranger archer was crazy powerful. The wizard was really powerful. The rogue was pretty good. The fighter (eldritch knight) originally tried to be a fighter/thief/magic-user of yore (fighter eldritch knight/rogue arcane trickster/wizard evoker), but got to be rebuilt as a fighter (eldritch knight) with the Criminal background. His first version just had way too many Bonus Action options, especially since he was a two weapon fighter. The barbarian was able to suck up a ton of damage, but wasn't a damage-dealing powerhouse, mostly because he got a sub-optimal greatclub of haste. My cleric was really good at what he did: buffing and healing and drawing attacks, but I think I kind of suffered a bit by taking the Standard Array (or at least distributing it wrong); I eventually got some good gear that helped, plus ability boosting "feats."
But even being able to heal twice a round sometimes, a lot of PCs ended up at 0 hp.
|
|
5th Edition is a different system, but we had some pretty optimized PCs. The ranger archer was crazy powerful. The wizard was really powerful. The rogue was pretty good. The fighter (eldritch knight) originally tried to be a fighter/thief/magic-user of yore (fighter eldritch knight/rogue arcane trickster/wizard evoker), but got to be rebuilt as a fighter (eldritch knight) with the Criminal background. His first version just had way too many Bonus Action options, especially since he was a two weapon fighter. The barbarian was able to suck up a ton of damage, but wasn't a damage-dealing powerhouse, mostly because he got a sub-optimal greatclub of haste. My cleric was really good at what he did: buffing and healing and drawing attacks, but I think I kind of suffered a bit by taking the Standard Array (or at least distributing it wrong); I eventually got some good gear that helped, plus ability boosting "feats."
But even being able to heal twice a round sometimes, a lot of PCs ended up at 0 hp.
Yes. I believe it would be easier in 5E. A lot of things seem to be under cr'd and spells are nerfed so enemy wizards won't wipe a whole party.
We also finished at 13th level, not 16th or whatever the AP usually ends up at. But CRs and levels are really different in 5th Edition too.
In RotRL our group went with (all human):
- paladin
- fighter
- wizard
- sorcerer
- life oracle
As long as a tank and the healer were up and running, we won. The pally is probably the best choice as tank, as his LoH can come in very handy, as do his defenses, not to speak of his smiting.
We did have a rogue, but he gave up around level 10 and rolled the sorcerer. His main problem was that he can't hit very well and often gets into trouble over flanking. Maybe a slayer would have been better.
Seeing your group composition, I'd recommend a life oracle, too, but you need to enjoy being the buffer/healer to be good at it.
A bard would be great. A skald might be even better.
As long as you can buff your party, you should be doing pretty well.
I might even say if you want, you can go a special build, called the Halfling helper.
There's a build going around for a halfling that can give INSANE bonuses on aid at a moments notice, it's different.
I've only been to level 10 in RotR and my entire group was new/inexperienced/unoptimized, so I take what happened with a grain of salt.
I played a dwarf fighter, sword and board, with all the giant-fighting alternate racial traits and still got rocked by giants. I was our only front-liner, though. We had a sorcerer, thief-style rogue, and a cleric that avoided melee. I was killed twice, resurrected the first time and immediately killed again in the next battle. Rolled a new character after that.
Moral of the story is you want buffs and battlefield control against the heavy-hitting bad guys. Put walls in their way, confuse them, and for the love of god have Haste. With all your physical attackers it will be an insane bonus.
If your GM will allow you to take Leadership - Since you have stats supporting an arcanist anyway per an earlier post, you might want to look at an arcanist and pick up some kind of bard/cleric/oracle cohort.
EDIT: The classic Treantmonk God Wizard might serve this party really well.
My experience is similar. Newbie everything basically, except me that I get the rules a bit more.
Rise is a harsh AP I think if you're not built for it. So far my experience has been ALL inside dungeons, so makes the use of Fireball harder, as well as flanking.
IMO if you roll a Bard you should be pretty ok, it's a good class specially if built for Ranged
Wizard
** spoiler omitted **
I agree with the Arcane. Everyone told me you need an Arcane for Runelords. It all depends on your party's level of optimization.
In my party for example I couldn't play much the God Wizard. Even if I used Grease, Glitterdust, party either neglected enemies affected by the spells, or their damage was always insufficient. Mind you I have 2 members using 2TWF, one a Ninja (not unchained) the other a Slayer with Shield bash.Regarding Crossblooded Sorcerer > I'm not sure the loss of a caster level is worth the extra damage. Yes, at level 7 and with the Lore Seeker trait (+1 CL/DC) we're talking about a Selective Fireball doing 10d6+20+3, but you lack access to level 4th spells, which means more spells cast per day, more utility.
It is a rules technicality, but if you feel you need a thurge you could use a exploit in the rules to be a good wizard and a poor cleric
Take 7 levels in wizard (or 8 in a slower progress), take the Faith magic discovery
one level in a divine caster
You are now good for thurge with -1 arcane casting
Do a better wizard.
Your party will be thankful.
I was a God Wizard, my party didn't like that I wasn't casting fireballs.
|
|
I was a God Wizard, my party didn't like that I wasn't casting fireballs.Do a better wizard.
Your party will be thankful.
Fireballs are great against low hp mooks, but against giants, you do want things like confusion, hold monster, glitterdust, create pit, solid fog, etc instead. Now, dazing fireballs could work well, but you need to be a decent level and have two certain traits to make it work well.
Fireballs are great against low hp mooks, but against giants, you do want things like confusion, hold monster, glitterdust, create pit, solid fog, etc instead. Now, dazing fireballs could work well, but you need to be a decent level and have two certain traits to make it work well.I was a God Wizard, my party didn't like that I wasn't casting fireballs.Do a better wizard.
Your party will be thankful.
I know, party is kinda bad. Having 2 guys using 2 Weapon Fighting sucks.
Slayer and Ninja, and Ninja damage is 1d6+3d6 if flanking. So yeah, I'm not sure what's gonna happen|
|
Is everyone level 7? A ninja at that level should be doing at least 5d6+1 per hit while sneak attacking. Granted, even if he hits twice a round, the giant will drop him before he drops it. Two-weapon fighting isn't bad at all as long as you have decent accuracy and reliable extra damage like sneak attack per hit. The problem is that the ninja or rogue or slayer,etc can't drop a giant by themselves in a round. That's why you need to focus fire and be hasted etc., or have a lot of giants out of it thanks to a god wizard spell.
Is everyone level 7? A ninja at that level should be doing at least 5d6+1 per hit while sneak attacking. Granted, even if he hits twice a round, the giant will drop him before he drops it. Two-weapon fighting isn't bad at all as long as you have decent accuracy and reliable extra damage like sneak attack per hit. The problem is that the ninja or rogue or slayer,etc can't drop a giant by themselves in a round. That's why you need to focus fire and be hasted etc., or have a lot of giants out of it thanks to a god wizard spell.
That's the issue. We don't have a STRONG damage dealer. Having 2 guys using TWF means that even with PA from the Slayer doesn't do much.
Our Oracle is pure healing, he cannot deal damage unless with summons.I'm only a wizard and went with Evocation because the party cannot make effective use of my buffs (Haste) and even some Crowd Control.
I love Summoning but despise all the work that needs to be effective.
So, in my party for example I just go Preferred Spell Fireball and prepare as Wizard and replace as I saw fit.
|
|
Yeah, a 30 point fireball, wont do jack against giants with hundreds of hitpoints. You have to lock some down and have a two-handed power attacking melee guy work with the ninja to take them down one at a time, or you are in for a bad time. I think you need to petition the gm for some character rebuilds and work with your other party members to have more mechanically sound characters and tactics. This AP is brutal and unforgiving if run as written.
We shall ser what happens at higher levels. Im not sure honestly. Maybe we can do it
It gets even worse at higher levels.
I know I won't be dying because I'm a Wizard. The only reason I've died it's because I missed a couple of sessions due to personal reasons and my Wizard Conjurer was being played by the party.
Since I missed several sessions I didn't get mad at dying, but I usually always have a scroll for something.The first time I died was because DM mismanaged Scent ability, allowing the mount to move+attack knowing direction directly, when they have to take a move action to pin point direction but not precise spot.
Now I have flying, I can just fly.
And at 10th level, vanilla fireballs average 35 damage. Many are going to be empowered or maximized or both, some intensified at 11th and later, and quickened at 13th or sooner with a rod. A lot of these options are accessible earlier via traits.
But big blasts work pretty well in RotRL. Lots of groups of targets with low Reflex saves.
|
|
And at 10th level, vanilla fireballs average 35 damage. Many are going to be empowered or maximized or both, some intensified at 11th and later, and quickened at 13th or sooner with a rod. A lot of these options are accessible earlier via traits.
But big blasts work pretty well in RotRL. Lots of groups of targets with low Reflex saves.
By the time you can get decent damage on those fireballs, the hit points of the enemy will be so high that they will barely put a dent in them. We are talking about gargantuan giants and dragons, not goblins.