Am I crazy, did I misremember this?

[VampByDay]

I seem to recall that there was an alchemist prestige class or archetype or discovery or something that let them transform without imbibing a mutagen, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Am I crazy or was this really a thing?

[nicholas storm]

master chymist

[Cult of Vorg]

metamorph from Ultimate Intrigue

[VampByDay]

Dang, is it just me or is that archetype garbage? You loose extracts (spells) AND bombs for a few transformations?

Thanks for the heads up, but I don't think either of those work my character idea.

[Rysky]

I wouldn't really call being able to transform pretty much all day after a bit "few transformations".

[Derklord]

Metamorph is indeed a severe loss in power, unless you are mainly interested in flight all day long at level 6 and want neither the Agathiel Vigilante (who can do that at 4th level) or Druid (with either Beast of the Society trait or one of few certain archetypes).

Metamorph's biggest problem is that there aren't really any good forms to take. Below very high levels, you don't really get anything a Beastmorph alchemist couldn't do just as well without losing spellcasting.

In theory, Metamorph is totally cool: You get flight all day long. And pounce. And cool vision types. And a bunch of other totally strong abilities. And if you want spellcasting, change into Doppleganger and use any wand you like!
Exept you don't! I have found but two forms with Pounce (both large, and one of them can only pounce in water). None of them can fly, of course. None of the good fly or pounce forms has any strong abilities. And the Doppelganger thing doesn't really work because of the limited number of shifts per day.
If there were large and huge forms with flight, pounce and good natural attacks, Metamorph would have a nice niche.

Also, the archetype is rather badly written.

[Torbyne]

i didnt know about the metamorph. interesting. It is basically a natural attack or reach build it looks like? you get an ability for an extra STR and AC boost and a few utility/movement powers...

So you still have discoveries but no Alchemy or Bombs, which again pushes you to utility powers and mutagen enhancers. Wings, Spontaneous Healing, Tumor Familiar, Lingering Spirit, that kind of thing. Right off the bat it looks like you can make an extremely hardy PC just because your discoveries are so limited, Lingering Soul, Spontaneous Healing and if you want to go that route, tenacious Survivor mean you are unlikely to ever die through HP loss.

The metamorph itself.. am i reading this right, at level 9 you can take on the form of a Calikang for 36 hours per day, pop a feral mutagen for a total of +8 str on top of your belt and enjoy your 7 primary natural attacks? (bite, claw, claw, slam, slam, slam, slam)? Cause that sounds fun. Kind of makes up for not having bombs.

[Derklord]

Yes, it's basically Wildshape Druid for monstrous humanoid instead of animals. Oh, and without spells, of course.

It starts with 3 primary attacks (Sewer Troll from Monster Codex or Troglodyte from B1), at 2nd level you can already have 4 primary attacks when both shapeshift and mutagen are active (Sasquatch from B3). At 5th level, this goes up to 7 primary natural attacks (Witchwyrd from B2), or either 5 primary plus 2 secondary attacks while flying (Popobala from B3). At 9th level, Tikbalang from B4 for 3+2 with pounce, the mentioned Calikang from ISWG, Vouivre from B4 for 3+2 while flying or swimming, and Four-Armed Gargyole from Adventure Path 48 for 6 primaries whily flying. At 11th level, you can go up to 9 primary attacks with Gegenees from B5, or 3+1 while flying with Thriae Queen from B3.

Sadly, wings discovery doesn't work in polymorphed from because they are a physical thing.

And yes, 7-9 primary natural attacks in combination with a a fairy significant bonus to strength means that Metamorph is by no means a bad martial (although as noted there's only one usable form with pounce, so he's either fixated on that or extremely dependant on full attacks).
It's just that spellcasting (even if it's 'merely' alchemy) is so strong that compared to regular alchemist, it's a significant drop in power level. You could compare it to Syntheist Summoner - one hell of a martial, losing what is effectively a free quicken on every single spell he casts is just not worth it from a power level point of view.

[Torbyne]

Right, you play it as a martial with a few supplementary tricks. Which is good, you dont always need to be making the GM cry.

I thought i saw a few other forms of interest though, the Cecaelia is medium size but gets two reach tentacles plus you can still wield a reach weapon along with it if you'd like. the Charda has five natural attacks and a small size which can be fun. the regular old Gargoyle has a nice load out of natural attacks along with innate flying early on too. Another possible option at 11th level is the Pukwudgie for Con damage, not the most optimal but could be fun, especially if you are using your mutagen to boost your own CON and thus raise the DC.

How do wings not work in a polymorphed form? they are a class ability independent of race and not a polymorph effect themselves... its a weird extraordinary ability that mimics flight but with non-dispellable wings. sort of.

[swoosh]

Torbyne wrote:

How do wings not work in a polymorphed form? they are a class ability independent of race and not a polymorph effect themselves... its a weird extraordinary ability that mimics flight but with non-dispellable wings. sort of.

The line of thinking is that discoveries like wings physically modify your body and as such vanish when you polymorph.

Not sure how much I care for it, given how thematic such discoveries are for the archetype and that they are class features, but that's how a lot of people seem to be ruling it.

[Chess Pwn]

people wanted a melee non-magic shapeshifter. This potentially was Paizo trying to fill that request.

[Torbyne]

swoosh wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

How do wings not work in a polymorphed form? they are a class ability independent of race and not a polymorph effect themselves... its a weird extraordinary ability that mimics flight but with non-dispellable wings. sort of.

The line of thinking is that discoveries like wings physically modify your body and as such vanish when you polymorph.

Not sure how much I care for it, given how thematic such discoveries are for the archetype and that they are class features, but that's how a lot of people seem to be ruling it.

That is an interesting line of thinking. there is another thread going asking about claws and fast movement while under a polymorph effect. So the Transmutation (Polymorph) listing says this:

- While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

- You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

- While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.

Wings as a discovery are not dependent on form or race in this case. They are a class feature but they are a class feature that would work for any form. In effect you are a giant or whatever but you also have X levels of alchemist as that giant and know the same discoveries... i think this is a case where it comes down to "the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed."

[Torbyne]

Chess Pwn wrote:

people wanted a melee non-magic shapeshifter. This potentially was Paizo trying to fill that request.

True enough, with Skinwalkers, Mooncursed Barbarians and the Metamorph there are now plenty of options to play shape changing focus characters of all types out there.

[Derklord]

Derklord wrote:

It starts with 3 primary attacks (Sewer Troll from Monster Codex or Troglodyte from B1), at 2nd level you can already have 4 primary attacks when both shapeshift and mutagen are active (Sasquatch from B3). At 5th level, this goes up to 7 primary natural attacks (Witchwyrd from B2), or either 5 primary plus 2 secondary attacks while flying (Popobala from B3). At 9th level, Tikbalang from B4 for 3+2 with pounce, the mentioned Calikang from ISWG, Vouivre from B4 for 3+2 while flying or swimming, and Four-Armed Gargyole from Adventure Path 48 for 6 primaries whily flying. At 11th level, you can go up to 9 primary attacks with Gegenees from B5, or 3+1 while flying with Thriae Queen from B3.

N-N-Necro! After years of thirsting, Paizo finally gave us a truly good Metamorph form! And promptly banned it for PFS, because martial's can't have nice things.

Straight Outta Compton Bestiary 6, I present you the Deathsnatcher. Cool name*, cool look (yay, no more weird man-horse), and b@%*&in' stats! Medium sized, a rocking six primary attacks (bite/4 claws/sting, so no need for Feral Mutagen discovery), fly speed (so no need for Wings discovery), scent, and most important, pounce!!! At 13th level (MP4), adds resist 20 cold and fire, as well as poison with one of the attacks to the mix. Shame we don't get the rend variant, nor the see in darkness (not even as darkvision).

*) Seriously, after Popobala, Tikbalang, Rokurokubi, Calikang, Vouivre, Derhii, and Gegenees, it's nice to have a form that one can pronounce.

Also from B6, we have the large sized Great Old One, Yig. Darkvision, low-light vision, scent, resist fire and acid, climb and swim speeds, rend, constrict, poison, grab, and four attacks (bite/2 claws/tail slap) are a nice package, but it's hard to compete with pounce. But wait, this weird green guy doesn't have ordinary damage dice (wouldn't befit one of Cthulhu's buddy's, after all) - he's sporting 4d8 claws, a 4d10 tail slap, and a 6d10 bite! Have a buddy cast Strong Jaw on you, and you can have a (to my knowledge even PFS legal) PC with a natural attack that's literally off the chart! Luckily, the next step isn't hard to determine, so we can figure out that this bad boy now has a 16d8 damage dice! Sorry Cave Druid with Carnivorous Crystal form, you're officially dethroned!

Deathsnather:

CE Medium monstrous humanoid
Senses scent
Resist cold 30, fire 30
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
Melee bite +29 (2d6+10), 4 claws +29 (1d8+10/19–20*), sting +29 (1d6+10 plus poison)
Special Attacks pounce

*) Improved Critical feat, so you won't get those crit range

Great Old One, Yig:

CN Large monstrous humanoid (chaotic, Great Old One, shapechanger)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Resist acid 30, fire 30
Speed 60 ft., climb 60 ft., swim 60 ft.; air walk
Melee bite +44 (6d10+21/19–20* plus poison), 2 claws +44 (4d8+21/19–20*), tail slap +44** (4d10+21/19–20* plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (20 ft. with tail slap)
Special Attacks constrict (4d10+21), rend (2 claws, 4d8+21)

*) Improved Critical feat, so you won't get those crit ranges
**) Made primary by a special ability, I don't think it's primary for a Metamorph