First post so please let me know if this needs to be moved. How would a kitsune with the young template (decrease the creatures size by one) appear using either the change shape racial trait or the fox shape feat.
The section that is a bit confusing is this part of the change shape ability:
A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability.
The question is if in this case the traits of the template might also carry over to the alternative form since it is specific to this particular kitsune, bypassing the normal polymorphing restrictions.
It would seem rather strange thematically for the naturally occurring alternative form of a kitsune that appears to be a child and small size to morph into a 20 something adult human of medium size.
The fox shape feat cause further issue:
You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. .... This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
There appears to be 4 possible ways to interpret this ability for a child kitsune:
a) The template does not carry across for Fox Shape, change into an adult fox as described
b) Turn into a fox of diminutive size but only obtain the ability modifiers outlined in Beast Shape II for a tiny creature
c)Turn into a fox of diminutive size and obtain the ability modifiers outlined in Beast Shape III for a diminutive creature, overriding the restriction in the feat
d)The template should carry across to the fox shape but can not work because Beast Shape II does not allow for transformation into diminutive creatures
I would lean towards a) or b) being correct but can also see justification for c).
I don't have a particular campaign I am working with so I can't consult the GM and wanted some advice.
Presumably if you are a young kitsune, you'll change into a young human appearance.
As always this is up to your GM as you can't take the young template AT ALL in PFS.
I genreally don't allow it at all unless I make it mandatory for running a fantasy version of Cybergeneration.
I would say
(1) you appear as a human/fox of your own age category, regardless of templates;
(2) you do not carry over templates.
For instance, the young template can also be used to create a smaller subspecies. In that case I'd assume you don't turn into a mini-fox, and if you have the giant template you shouldn't turn into a mega-fox. If you're a half-dragon kitsune I don't think you turn into a half-dragon fox, either. Etc. Same with your human forms.
Basically the idea of the alternate shapes is largely to appear normal and harmless, not wacky and dangerous; that should be preserved. Do consult your GM once you have one, of course, but I think that logic is sound.
kit kitsune would turn into a kit fox (or possibly a kit kit fox if he's one of those osirion kitsune)
Re beast shape, if your character is actually youthful, I'd probably apply the young template in reverse to your character, then apply beast shape and all its implications normally, then apply the young template to the result to get the appropriate youthful fox. The fox should be perceived by others as a young fox, not a miniature adult fox.
It's not that you lose the template, it's that the polymorph effect supersedes the size change. And while it may seem strange that a child kitsune transforms into an adult human, the ability suggests that is the case. "The kitsune always takes this specific form". "A fox who's apperance is static". If the form were to change as the kitsune ages, that line would be incorrect.
The fox's appearance changes if the kitsune had been wounded, too (namely, you get a wounded fox). It's meant to mean "you don't get to magically change how you appear each time," not "real changes are not reflected."
The fox's appearance changes if the kitsune had been wounded, too (namely, you get a wounded fox).
Do you have a rules source for that?
Consider this example. A character has an arm cut off. He then uses beast shape to turn into an animal. Is the animal missing an arm? What if the animal has multiple arms, like a spider.
Are you seriously claiming that by changing to another form all your wounds are healed? That's a use of polymorph I think I'd've heard of if it were real.
Are you seriously claiming that by changing to another form all your wounds are healed? That's a use of polymorph I think I'd've heard of if it were real.
Your hp isn't healed, but there is nothing to suggest that your assumed form shows any wounds you previously had. See the missing arm example from my earlier post.
First of all, PF has no rules to deal with missing body parts. Any GM who allows the PCs (or NPCs) to hack off someone's limbs while they live is 100% on their own.
Second, if the kitsune is subject to a bleed effect and then polymorphs, nothing says the bleed goes away, so there is at least one obvious wound on the alternate form.
Third, if as a kitsune you are beaten to the brink of death and then (with Diehard I assume) you turn into a fox/human, you are a fox/human on the brink of death. That's going to show, or at least I have never before heard it suggested that such damage can be somehow invisible.
I think you're really stretching RAW over clear RAI here. "Static" means "the kitsune doesn't get to mess with their appearance," which is important for gameplay. That doesn't mean nothing changes the alternate form's appearance ever.
So... one little Alter Self spell and a character who has lost their eyes / arms / legs is fully functional?
Almost explicitly.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
Bleeding can be internal.
Internal bleeding takes a lot more than first aid to fix.
option 1) the polymorph rules were written with the idea of the humanoid races from the CRB
option 2: a kitsune infant turns into a 18 year old human.
Lets go with option 1.
Option 3, a kitsune infant can't shapeshift.
For reference, a young human character is from 9 to 14 years old, so we don't have rules for characters relatively younger than this.
I think you're just taking an overly strict interpretation of a static appearance, Melkiador. I would consider my own appearance static, after all, but I still age. A reading as strict as yours would also prevent changes while in fox form, such as losing a limb.
A reading as strict as yours would also prevent changes while in fox form, such as losing a limb.
No, the ability transforms you to a static form, but never says it stays static after that. But you could transform back and back again to regain the original appearance.
This seems like a side discussion that could be its own thread elsewhere.
To get back to the original question... I'd have to have my rulebooks to be 100% certain, but I believe you would, by the rules, retain the non-form-dependent bonuses from a template while under a polymorph effect, while not getting any other effects from the template. So, for example, a half-dragon kitsune would turn into a normal-looking human, but retain the bonuses to strength, constitution, etc. from being a half-dragon.
This would imply that a young kitsune would appear as an adult human or fox, by a strict interpretation of the rules. However, if I were the GM, I would rule that a young kitsune would turn into a young fox or a young human, not an adult one, because in this case (from my perspective) the template isn't changing your race but rather your age, which is something it seems you should retain when using an innate shape-changing ability. But that would be my personal ruling, not one supported by the rules.
As this is the rules forum, I must say the rules would make you an adult... but as a role-player, I would say the rules are wrong in this case, as it's kind of a corner case they weren't made to handle.
Thanks for the advise all, it looks like the general consensus is that as the rules are written the young template would not carry to the alternative forms. However in practice having naturally occurring alternative forms matching the age of the base form should be a reasonable assumption.
Almost no one thinks you "lose" the template. It's more a question of how the size change from the template interacts with the ability. The size changes either "stack" and you end up with a smaller transformation. Or the polymorph takes precedence and you transform into the default form.
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1) You don't lose the template.
2) The template isn't applied to the fox, its applied to you. So you use the standard statistics for a fox. (Being Tiny and all.) This does mean that by default, the rules state that a Child kitsune and an Adult kitsune using Fox Shape would end up the same size as a fox.
We can read this in a few different ways.
2a) The fox you change into roughly has your specific appearance and liveliness (remember, you still have your ability score modifiers for being young), but kitsune in general don't have as much control over the form they take as a fox.
2b) Because foxes age so much more rapidly than kitsune do (it takes a fox roughly a year to grow from infancy to biological adulthood, compared to 14–15 years for a kitsune), the form itself is agnostic of the kitsune's age.
2c) A Child kitsune's fox form *is* smaller and younger-looking than an Adult kitsune's fox form, but the size different isn't substantial enough to actually have the fox be a different size category.
Ultimately, you should pick the one that works best for your character and your GM's world, but as written Fox Shape would override the size change from the young creature template unless your GM specifically allowed your Fox Shape to transform you into a fox who also had the young creature template.
PS. Glad to see so many people are enjoying Blood of the Beast!
1) You don't lose the template.
2) The template isn't applied to the fox, its applied to you. So you use the standard statistics for a fox. (Being Tiny and all.) This does mean that by default, the rules state that a Child kitsune and an Adult kitsune using Fox Shape would end up the same size as a fox.
We can read this in a few different ways.
2a) The fox you change into roughly has your specific appearance and liveliness (remember, you still have your ability score modifiers for being young), but kitsune in general don't have as much control over the form they take as a fox.2b) Because foxes age so much more rapidly than kitsune do (it takes a fox roughly a year to grow from infancy to biological adulthood, compared to 14–15 years for a kitsune), the form itself is agnostic of the kitsune's age.
2c) A Child kitsune's fox form *is* smaller and younger-looking than an Adult kitsune's fox form, but the size different isn't substantial enough to actually have the fox be a different size category.
Ultimately, you should pick the one that works best for your character and your GM's world, but as written Fox Shape would override the size change from the young creature template unless your GM specifically allowed your Fox Shape to transform you into a fox who also had the young creature template.
PS. Glad to see so many people are enjoying Blood of the Beast!
I am more thank happy to defer to the person who wrote the book on kitsune, thanks.
I am more thank happy to defer to the person who wrote the book on kitsune, thanks.
I wrote a bunch of articles and a PDF, but I didn't write the Fox Shape feat. Mine is as much an opinion as anyone else's in this thread. ;-)
I am more thank happy to defer to the person who wrote the book on kitsune, thanks.I wrote a bunch of articles and a PDF, but I didn't write the Fox Shape feat. Mine is as much an opinion as anyone else's in this thread. ;-)
True, but you do have a very good knowledge of underlying kitsune physiology, which it one of the biggest factors to answering this question.
First of all, PF has no rules to deal with missing body parts.Vorpal
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