Outer God and Great Old One worship; Acceptability

[Xuldarinar]

Secretive as the faiths of the tapestry are, and as malevolent and incomprehensible as they tend to believe, I figured I'd ask a couple of questions along the very theme of the title.

In what countries, places, ect. within Golarion would open worship of an Outer God or Great Old one would be allowed/tolerated/ect?

For instance, in spite of their policy on religions, I would assume there would be dim view of worship of these entities in Cheliax.

Branching from that, are there any deities/demigods that have even a remotely positive relation with, or view of, these entities or anything tied to them?

[DominusMegadeus]

They use ~^*MAGIC*^~ to send all sentient life into an endless nightmare, so Nethys thinks they're a bunch of cool dudes. To be fair, people who fight against them also use ~^*MAGIC*^~, so it basically cancels out.

Besides that, I'm not sure anyone anywhere is okay with the Mythos. Maybe some Demon Lords?

[MMCJawa]

For the most part I don't thing you can expect any heavily settled region on the surface of the material plane to be cool with worship of the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones, at least at present. Darklands of course would be an exception given the number of abberations, as well as some of the distant worlds. The only above ground exceptions might be Geb, which seems would be down with Mordiggian, and I can kind of see some greater tolerance in Nex, if only for research regions.

[Zhangar]

I can't see anyone in the city of Nex caring as long as you don't hurt anyone. I mean, they have the high priest of a demon lord on the city council.

That being said, they simply would not be acceptable anywhere with civilization, and frankly aren't acceptable in places without it too.

A lot of the Varisians and Kellids follow Desna, and Desna's a sworn enemy of the Outer Gods.

[Yakman]

nowhere "civilized" save with POSSIBLY the aforementioned POSSIBLE tolerance for it on the fringes in Nex.

remember, the Outer Gods encourage the same type of highly destructive behavior that you see with Rovagug's people - and they are verboten as well.

I can see isolated places or barbarian tribes where the Mythos is venerated (kinda like in Lovecraft) but nowhere else. A small town gone mad, a lunatic bandit clan, a bizarre isolated farming community... that's about it. When it expands further than that or "normal" people hear about it, then it's pitchforks and torches for the lot of them.

[Tacticslion]

Oh! Also, possibly, twisted or (humorously) "corrupted" worshipers of Lamashtu. I could see more than a few gnolls interested in blending their lines with the monstrosities, "Just like Mother* intended."

* Lamashtu

[Odraude]

smaller clanholds and isolated villages probably would venerate them. Especially in areas that aren't socially stable. Say a village is going through a famine. They might be more willing to sell their souls to be able to feed themselves.

[Yakman]

Odraude wrote:

smaller clanholds and isolated villages probably would venerate them. Especially in areas that aren't socially stable. Say a village is going through a famine. They might be more willing to sell their souls to be able to feed themselves.

oh, definitely.

i can see more than a few of those isolated villages in Isger being subverted by the Mythos. Galt's chaos might be a place for them.

I've long been speculating on a Mythos-infused campaign where (in one part) the PCs discover a village populated with villainous Dagon/Cthulhu-type cult on the southern shores of Rahadoum, where the reach of the Pure League is weak.

[shadowkras]

This will depend on which great old one or outer god we are talking about.
Followers of Azathoth want the destruction that everything that exists, this plane or the next. Even asmodeus would have a problem with that.
Followers of Cthulhu want to awake a being that is as much capable of destruction as any recorded spawn of rovagug, not to mention the madness that he brings to everyone that survives. So lawful and good deities should have a problem with that, others could even see him as a potential tool to be controlled.

[Nezzarine Shadowmantle]

I believe Urgothoa and Zon-Kuthon would just LOVE the Outer Gods. In addition, Nyarlathotep could be worshipped all over the place openly under one of his 999 false guises and no one would know. Mwuahahahaha....

[Nezzarine Shadowmantle]

Kaer Maga?

['Sani]

They probably wouldn't care in the Shackles. They've already got cannibals, openly accessible temples to Norgorber, lycanthropes that make no effort to hide what they are, a Rakshasa Free Captain, and even a Red Dragon that no one opposes. They probably wouldn't even bat an eyelash at few Outer God/Great Old One cults.

[Generic Villain]

Based on what we know about the Old Cults thus far: the answer is none. There are no places where Old Cultists are openly accepted. Some of the Elder Gods and Great Old Ones are even treated like a well-guarded secret, a source of power not to be shared with others without careful consideration.

With that said, some of the Elder Mythos are a bit more palatable than others. Or at least their cultists try to make it so. Hastur has cults in Versex County in Ustalav, Galt, Taldor, Razmiran, and the city of Quantium in Nex for example. However none of these cults would ever fess up to actually worshiping the King in Yellow. Indeed, one rule of his priesthood is to maintain maximum secrecy. Hastur Club doesn't talk about Hastur Club.

Shub-Niggurath's worship is common around Lake Encarthan, and at least a few of the skum who make the lake their home are devoted to her. Small coastal towns in Varisia and Cheliax, Darklands communities, ruins in the Mwangi Expanse, and some remote enclaves in the deserts of Osirion also host Old Cults. In general though, even evil or downright savage cultures abhor the Elder Mythos. They are so alien and unconscionable that no sane group is willing to raise a temple in their name. The closest I can see to an exception would be Yig, because he verges on benevolent. Unpredictable, yes, but not destroy-the-universe unpredictable. If you want to openly worship the rest of the Elder Mythos though, you had best plan on joining derros, ghouls, skum, chardas, gugs, or the like. And all of the above will eat/torture/murder you, so...

I am basing this off of information presented in: Cults of the Old Tapestry (Wake of the Watcher), Outer Gods (Inner Sea Gods), Great Old Ones & Outer Gods (Faiths of Corruption), Old Cults (Faction Guide), and the Elder Mythos (In Search of Sanity).

[Set]

Yakman wrote:

nowhere "civilized" save with POSSIBLY the aforementioned POSSIBLE tolerance for it on the fringes in Nex.

Nex might be a good place for cults, as it's a magic-dominant society, and people who *don't* have arcane potential, either the knack or discipline for arcane magic, would be easily led into any sort of cult that would promise shortcuts to that sort of power, since, in Nex, it equals status, and they'd be stuck at the lower tiers of Nexian society without any arcane potential for sorcery or wizardry.

Other lands where people feel like they *need* magical advantages to survive or thrive or get by, like in monster-haunted Ustalav, or undead-run Geb, or even strife-torn Galt, would be fertile recruiting grounds for Old Ones cults, offering their followers a sense of security through both fellowship and the promise of occult power.

Other places, with rigid social structures, and 'haves' and 'have-nots' mind also find their permanent underclasses turning to whatever sketchy sources of power they can find, since they are locked out of the hierarchy or bloodlines dominating power in their nation, like Irrisen, for instance, or Cheliax.

[Starglim]

Set wrote:

Other places, with rigid social structures, and 'haves' and 'have-nots' mind also find their permanent underclasses turning to whatever sketchy sources of power they can find, since they are locked out of the hierarchy or bloodlines dominating power in their nation, like Irrisen, for instance, or Cheliax.

I could easily see some Ithaqua cultists in Irrisen.

[Backpack]

The fun part of the old gods/outer is that most literally could not care less if you actually worshiped them. So you go a few months without practicing, maybe all you do to show your worship is some inner reflection.

[KarlBob]

The Sodden Lands and the remnants of Iobaria might also harbor isolated cults. There could be a shunned tribe in the Lands of the Mammoth Lords, or a desperate rebel faction in Irrisen might see Ithaqua as an alternative to Baba Yaga.

In Cthulhu cults of the Sodden Lands, there could be a belief that R'lyeh lies at the center of the Eye of Abendego.

In the tradition of Warhammer Fantasy, there could be decadent nobles in Taldor secretly worshipping the Elder Gods for kicks. Some might be bored dilettantes, while others secretly plot the regime's final calamitous downfall. Perhaps most frightening, some might seek to restore the country to its former glory by any means necessary. ("How many serfs does it want per month? That's not so many, really, and they're only serfs.")

[KarlBob]

Nezzarine Shadowmantle wrote:

I believe Urgothoa and Zon-Kuthon would just LOVE the Outer Gods. In addition, Nyarlathotep could be worshipped all over the place openly under one of his 999 false guises and no one would know. Mwuahahahaha....

If it's true that the god Dou-Bral was possessed by an entity from the Great Beyond, and returned to Golarion as Zon-Kuthon, then it's entirely possible that there's already an Elder God/Great Old One in the core pantheon of the setting. He could be one of Nyarlathotep's 999 guises, for all we know.

[Xuldarinar]

KarlBob wrote:

Nezzarine Shadowmantle wrote:

I believe Urgothoa and Zon-Kuthon would just LOVE the Outer Gods. In addition, Nyarlathotep could be worshipped all over the place openly under one of his 999 false guises and no one would know. Mwuahahahaha....

If it's true that the god Dou-Bral was possessed by an entity from the Great Beyond, and returned to Golarion as Zon-Kuthon, then it's entirely possible that there's already an Elder God/Great Old One in the core pantheon of the setting. He could be one of Nyarlathotep's 999 guises, for all we know.

I wish that were the case but it has been stated otherwise: (pardon the improper format, but this is a direct copy and paste)

Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director
Feb 28, 2013, 05:55 pm | FLAG | LIST
+
James Jacobs
Lucent wrote:
Calling it here, it's the Dominion of the Black.
Zon-Kuthon's whole story is so Hellraiser/Event Horizon. It only makes sense given what we know of the Dominion.
Just to head that off at the proverbial pass...

I've been doing a LOT of thinking about the Dominion of the Black lately, and I've got pretty solid in my head what they are and what they're about.

And that doesn't fit in well at all with Zon-Kuthon.

It's not the Lovecraft mythos. It's not the Dominion of the Black. It's something else.

-
With that, my guess is he went to a space between planes, or outside the planes. He's more akin to a deific Devourer than one of the tapestry, least in origin.

[Tacticslion]

Yeah, according to Mr. Jacobs in another, similar post sometime after that one, Dou-Bral went somewhere akin to the space between the plane of shadow and the material plane (or maybe just all the way into the plane of shadow; I no longer recall, exactly) - there, he met an "it" which entered and altered him, transforming him into the Zon-Kuthon.

It has also been implied (at least in some places - this may be defunct now, I'm not sure, since they keep changing canon) that Zon-Kuthon is not actually Dou-Bral, but entirely the "it" D-B found out there - while Dou-Bral himself remains trapped inside (or something)... possibly influencing Z-K in some small ways, but more-or-less sealed away and unable to truly influence the world.

Bear in mind that I've got a memory like a rusted sieve, so take that all with several grains of salt - or maybe a whole 'lick (just watch out for the cows, if you do).

[Generic Villain]

Back when he was still Dou-Bral, the god who would become Zon-Kuthon left one day to explore the "far dark places between the planes," when an alien entity possessed him. His original self was forced "into a tiny prison within his own essence." That's from Inner Sea Gods. Whatever got him was likely Lovecraftian, as it is mentioned in the Cosmic Horror section of Horror Realms that even gods have to bow down to the greatest cosmic horrors, then immediately sites the change that came over Z-K as an example. In People of the Stars though, it outright states that Z-K was transformed after contacting the Dark Tapestry. So was Z-K transformed in the Dark Tapestry or the places between the planes? Or maybe these (already somewhat ambiguous) places are somehow linked? Currently unknown.

Z-K is lawful which stands in contrast with all the other Outer Gods and Great Old Ones who are neutral or - more often - chaotic. This could be explained in the aforementioned Inner Sea gods article, where it's noted that the alien presence twisted Dou-Bral's power rather than outright possessing him. He went from a god of beauty, love, and art, to one of torture, loss, and darkness, but no Outer God is directly pulling his strings. Rather, he came into contact with something that warped him to his very core. Not unlike the mortal protagonists of so many cosmic horror tales.

[James Jacobs]

Generic Villain wrote:

Back when he was still Dou-Bral, the god who would become Zon-Kuthon left one day to explore the "far dark places between the planes," when an alien entity possessed him. His original self was forced "into a tiny prison within his own essence." That's from Inner Sea Gods. Whatever got him was likely Lovecraftian, as it is mentioned in the Cosmic Horror section of Horror Realms that even gods have to bow down to the greatest cosmic horrors, then immediately sites the change that came over Z-K as an example. In People of the Stars though, it outright states that Z-K was transformed after contacting the Dark Tapestry. So was Z-K transformed in the Dark Tapestry or the places between the planes? .

Alas, that's an error that crept into print. Zon-Kuthon was not transformed by anything to do with the Dark Tapestry or the Elder Mythos. It was something else entirely that we haven't yet revealed, but that I hope some day TO reveal. It's certainly "like Lovecraftian" but not actually Lovecraftian. In any event... It's not a forever secret.

[Rysky]

James Jacobs wrote:

Generic Villain wrote:

Back when he was still Dou-Bral, the god who would become Zon-Kuthon left one day to explore the "far dark places between the planes," when an alien entity possessed him. His original self was forced "into a tiny prison within his own essence." That's from Inner Sea Gods. Whatever got him was likely Lovecraftian, as it is mentioned in the Cosmic Horror section of Horror Realms that even gods have to bow down to the greatest cosmic horrors, then immediately sites the change that came over Z-K as an example. In People of the Stars though, it outright states that Z-K was transformed after contacting the Dark Tapestry. So was Z-K transformed in the Dark Tapestry or the places between the planes? .

Alas, that's an error that crept into print. Zon-Kuthon was not transformed by anything to do with the Dark Tapestry or the Elder Mythos. It was something else entirely that we haven't yet revealed, but that I hope some day TO reveal. It's certainly "like Lovecraftian" but not actually Lovecraftian. In any event... It's not a forever secret.

Cool!

Also, yay! A wild Directorsaur appears!

[Yakman]

James Jacobs wrote:

Generic Villain wrote:

Back when he was still Dou-Bral, the god who would become Zon-Kuthon left one day to explore the "far dark places between the planes," when an alien entity possessed him. His original self was forced "into a tiny prison within his own essence." That's from Inner Sea Gods. Whatever got him was likely Lovecraftian, as it is mentioned in the Cosmic Horror section of Horror Realms that even gods have to bow down to the greatest cosmic horrors, then immediately sites the change that came over Z-K as an example. In People of the Stars though, it outright states that Z-K was transformed after contacting the Dark Tapestry. So was Z-K transformed in the Dark Tapestry or the places between the planes? .

Alas, that's an error that crept into print. Zon-Kuthon was not transformed by anything to do with the Dark Tapestry or the Elder Mythos. It was something else entirely that we haven't yet revealed, but that I hope some day TO reveal. It's certainly "like Lovecraftian" but not actually Lovecraftian. In any event... It's not a forever secret.

that is hopefully the seed of a future pathfinder ap.

i'm looking forward to it.

[Generic Villain]

James Jacobs wrote:

Alas, that's an error that crept into print. Zon-Kuthon was not transformed by anything to do with the Dark Tapestry or the Elder Mythos. It was something else entirely that we haven't yet revealed, but that I hope some day TO reveal. It's certainly "like Lovecraftian" but not actually Lovecraftian. In any event... It's not a forever secret.

Hmm, interesting. I always guessed that Zon-Kuthon was Elder Mythos-infected, but had a niggling doubt because of his lawful alignment. Also because it wasn't clear where he was transformed. That clears things up a bit. So to reprise my guess: there might be some clues as to what got Dou-Bral, but probably nothing substantive. So at this point it could be almost anything. Obviously there's the Cliver Barker/Cenobite flavor, so that's the only thing I can think of. Dou-Bral went someplace forbidden - such as the spaces between the planes mentioned in the article on the devourer in Undead Revisited (though never again, I don't think) - and found something no man or god was meant to find.

I still don't think he was possessed per se. Everything I've read about him talks about his transformation, but as far as I recall, nothing has suggested he's being directly controlled by some outer influence. Time will hopefully tell.

[Generic Villain]

Generic Villain wrote:

I still don't think he was possessed per se. Everything I've read about him talks about his transformation, but as far as I recall, nothing has suggested he's being directly controlled by some outer influence. Time will hopefully tell.

Whoops, made an error here. Too late to edit my post. The Inner Sea Gods entry specifically states that Z-K was possessed by an unfathomable entity, so that could well still be the case. Really, I think the info we have on him is sparse and ambiguous enough that there's no way of telling anything definitively. But I'm OCD and so had to clear that up.

[Flynn Greywalker]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

They use ~^*MAGIC*^~ to send all sentient life into an endless nightmare, so Nethys thinks they're a bunch of cool dudes. To be fair, people who fight against them also use ~^*MAGIC*^~, so it basically cancels out.

Besides that, I'm not sure anyone anywhere is okay with the Mythos. Maybe some Demon Lords?

.

This is a good question. Here are the ones that I know of:
1. Ustalav. Especially in Versex, Sinaria, Barstoi and Varno counties.
2. Numeria
3. Brevoy
4. Iobaria
5. The Padishah Empire
6. Thuvia or the Mwangi Expanse
7. Geb
8. Nidal
9. Isger
10. Qadira
11. Varisia
12. Realm of the Mammoth Lords
13. River Kingdoms

Most other civilized kingdoms would not accept the worship. However, there are always cults of the Old gods and goddesses around.

[Generic Villain]

Flynn Greywalker wrote:

However, there are always cults of the Old gods and goddesses around.

That's the thing though: they are cults. Hidden, furtive, lots of secret handshakes and such, but never are the Old Ones openly worshiped. Even horrors like Zon-Kuthon and Lamashtu have formal, openly recognized temples in some places, but never the Old Cults. Personally I'm quite pleased with that. If some nation declared Cthulhu as the state religion, it would absolutely ruin the mystique.

[Rednal]

...Does anywhere in the Dominion of the Black count for that, or does its alien nature get it a pass on worshiping unfathomably alien gods?

[Roto]

I just want the GOO and OG to be PFS legal :(

[Generic Villain]

Rednal wrote:

...Does anywhere in the Dominion of the Black count for that, or does its alien nature get it a pass on worshiping unfathomably alien gods?

The Dominion doesn't count because they don't worship the Great Old Ones or Outer Gods. In fact, the Dominion is actively antagonistic towards the Elder Mythos and their worshipers.

[Alayern]

Flynn Greywalker wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

They use ~^*MAGIC*^~ to send all sentient life into an endless nightmare, so Nethys thinks they're a bunch of cool dudes. To be fair, people who fight against them also use ~^*MAGIC*^~, so it basically cancels out.

Besides that, I'm not sure anyone anywhere is okay with the Mythos. Maybe some Demon Lords?

.

This is a good question. Here are the ones that I know of:
1. Ustalav. Especially in Versex, Sinaria, Barstoi and Varno counties.
2. Numeria
3. Brevoy
4. Iobaria
5. The Padishah Empire
6. Thuvia or the Mwangi Expanse
7. Geb
8. Nidal
9. Isger
10. Qadira
11. Varisia
12. Realm of the Mammoth Lords
13. River Kingdoms

Most other civilized kingdoms would not accept the worship. However, there are always cults of the Old gods and goddesses around.

I must politely disagree with a couple of these. My arguments are entirely supposition, however, I've chosen the most pronounced examples where open worship of this kind wouldn't be tolerated. If you have evidence, I will be gladly contradicted, as I would much rather be correct.

5. The Padishah Empire of Kelesh has Sarenrae as not only its most popular but its official state sponsored deity. While her primary focus is redemption/healing, and her primary enemies are the qlippoth and Spawn of Rovagug, I can't imagine her clergy would allow Outer God or Great Old one cults in any sort of open environment.

6. Nidal, while certainly spooky and shadowy, is under the direct thrall of Zon-Kuthon. ZK would not tolerate open worship of anyone besides himself, and his clergy would violently eliminate any such heresy.