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Here is a example of what I mean: http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tdu/discuss&page=2?Gypsy#88
When one reviews a product I expect to hear about more than just the title. I expect to hear about what inside the product. When possible in a professional, objective and honest way. Instead because some posters here don't like the product. Decide to post some one star reviews in what can only be called a smear campaign towards the publisher imo.
The reviews are within minutes of one another. One after another. It's entirely possible all three are very fast readers. Which I don't think is the case. I understand and respect not liking the title. It's still kind of extreme thing to do imo. Why not contact Paizo about it directly. It just shows a complete bias and not really wanting to actually talk about the product. How is anyone here to trust past or future reviews from the same posters.
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Is the name not a part of the product? I'm pretty sure these reviews are based on what they think of that name, and that using racial slurs as the title of a product isn't what people want or will tolerate. I mean I have a bias against racial slurs myself, so maybe I should go review it too.
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At least read the product. Which I don't think eother of those who wrote the one star reveiws did. One admits to having read a review from someone else about the product. Thinking it excuses the one star review. If all your going to tell me is "don't buy the product because of the title" and nothing else. Is not a very good review imo. It also feels like a smear campaign against Dreadfox games to shame them into changing the title. So if they do. All of sudden those one star reviews will become 3 stars or more. How is anyone supposed to respect let alone trust such reviewers.
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At least read the product. Which I don't think eother of those who wrote the one star reveiws did. One admits to having read a review from someone else about the product. Thinking it excuses the one star review. If all your going to tell me is "don't buy the product because of the title" and nothing else. Is not a very good review imo. It also feels like a smear campaign against Dreadfox games to shame them into changing the title. So if they do. All of sudden those one star reviews will become 3 stars or more. How is anyone supposed to respect let alone trust such reviewers.
Yes, but therein lies the problem. I'm not giving money to a racist to find out that their product is substandard (That's something EZG already showed in their review). The point of a review is to give an opinion on a product, and these reviews are doing just that.
In your opinion, these are not good reviews. In my mind, they are, because they're giving me information on what the person feels towards the product, which is very important in a review. This isn't a smear campaign towards the writer or publisher, and while I haven't checked, I haven't seen anyone going around to every product they have put out and giving it 1 star because of this. It's literally a review of how this product and its name makes them feel; and that is a strong indicator of if something should be purchased to me.
While you don't seem to mind when a product lacks respect for a group of people, it seems others, such as myself, very much do. That's why I believe these reviews are as valid as any other I've read.
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It's all good to say the title is racist. It's not telling me about the rest of the product. What the class is about. What options in terms of feats, prestige classes etc. It's like saying "buy this new car because it's read" . All well and good. yor not telling me anything about the car beyond it's color. The could have used another title. Yet it's a no win situation. It seems anything and everything is offensive to someone at any point in time. We had the same debate when the Witch class was first announced. Paizo did not change it. People are still buying Paizo products.
While you don't seem to mind when a product lacks respect for a group of people, it seems others, such as myself, very much do. That's why I believe these reviews are as valid as any other I've read.
How do you know if a product lacks respect for it's subject matter without reading it's content?
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Having read through the thread that you provided, I'm seeing two sides to this argument.
One side is saying, "In some countries, the title of this book is one of the most vulgar terms imaginable. For a game that seeks to reach a global audience, it seems awfully irresponsible to use it so casually."
The other side is saying, "Where I'm from this word is not considered vulgar. So, people who find it offensive are overreacting by saying that it is."
I know a lot of people in the States who believe that the curse spelled out in C U Next Tuesday is the dirtiest word in the English language. And they are shocked and offended to hear other English speakers use it casually. Many times, I've heard U.S. speakers ask others not to use that term because it offends them. And folks from England don't get it, but they generally attempt to be "polite."
The whole thing about "bastard" is a rabbit hole, by the way. Not worth pursuing.
The bottom line in the argument appears to be whether you're the sort of person who respects the cultural norms of others, or whether you expect others across the world to live by your own. If the latter, then you certainly would not understand what's wrong with the title of the book in question. If the former, you would understand that a term as vulgar as this is not appropriate on the cover of a game book, available to children and anyone else who surfs the webstore.
As a native English speaker, I once held the opinion that this was not a vulgar term. But meeting people from other cultures has often had a transformative effect on me, and this is one of those instances. This really is a despicable term in their culture. Using it casually requires either a level of ignorance, or a complete lack empathy. I suspect for most people, it is certainly the former, simply because the term came to the States in a different era, when such things were accepted. But that illusion of decorum does not change the origin of the word, or its persistent meaning in the place where it originated.
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It's all good to say the title is racist. It's not telling me about the rest of the product. What the class is about. What options in terms of feats, prestige classes etc. It's like saying "buy this new car because it's read" . All well and good. yor not telling me anything about the car beyond it's color. The could have used another title. Yet it's a no win situation. It seems anything and everything is offensive to someone at any point in time. We had the same debate when the Witch class was first announced. Paizo did not change it. People are still buying Paizo products.
Personally, I don't know enough about the culture of those who use the term witch or warlock (which I've also heard is offensive to some cultures), so I can't speak for them. I am aware of those who find the title of the product in question to be offensive, to which I can speak about. And I'm sure there were people who did stop buying paizo products after that.
People will review things as they will, and while these aren't the most objective reviews, they do clearly show what people think of the product, which I think is important for a review. Sure, they're not reviewing it on a mechanical basis, but these are forum reviews by random people, not EZG or anyone reviewing in a professional capacity, so taking them as that is important here. It's up to you to give any review validity yourself, so if you see something reviewed by one of the people involved in this, feel free to ignore it.
How do you know if a product lacks respect for it's subject matter without reading it's content?
While you don't seem to mind when a product lacks respect for a group of people, it seems others, such as myself, very much do. That's why I believe these reviews are as valid as any other I've read.
To quote a statement from a review of the product:
Note: I was...less than impressed by the gentleman in charge of the company. While recently discussing the issue with my wife regarding the racial issues of the character class name, he made it exceptionally clear that he didn’t care about whether it was an insult to the Roma, as he feels it is only an insult in Britain and therefore doesn’t matter to his American based company.
That is not a person I trust to write respectfully about a minority.
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Well I'm the type where i need to actually read a product. Use it a product. Before reviewing it. I don't let secondhand information tarnish my opinion. If I trusted every person that said "don't buy this product as I don't like it" I would be very rich yet own nothing. I can respect others for not liking the product. I'm my own man and will make my own decisions.
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Well I'm the type where i need to actually read a product. Use it a product. Before reviewing it. I don't let secondhand information tarnish my opinion. If I trusted every person that said "don't buy this product as I don't like it" I would be very rich yet own nothing. I can respect others for not liking the product. I'm my own man and will make my own decisions.
Literally no one is telling you otherwise.
I'm a writer, I've written products sold here, and I've gotten reviews. Not all good, not all bad. But when I see a bad review for my products or others, I often check to see if that person has posted anything else. If it's an account with no post or 1-2 post, I generally disregard it, and if it's really mean spirited, I'll message Paizo about it. This is something you can do if you have an issue with these reviews, and you can see what the company as a whole thinks. You have the same right to engage Paizo as we do through these reviews, and if you have an issue, I suggest you do just that.
Having read through the thread that you provided, I'm seeing two sides to this argument.
One side is saying, "In some countries, the title of this book is one of the most vulgar terms imaginable. For a game that seeks to reach a global audience, it seems awfully irresponsible to use it so casually."
The other side is saying, "Where I'm from this word is not considered vulgar. So, people who find it offensive are overreacting by saying that it is."
I know a lot of people in the States who believe that the curse spelled out in C U Next Tuesday is the dirtiest word in the English language. And they are shocked and offended to hear other English speakers use it casually. Many times, I've heard U.S. speakers ask others not to use that term because it offends them. And folks from England don't get it, but they generally attempt to be "polite."
The whole thing about "bastard" is a rabbit hole, by the way. Not worth pursuing.
The bottom line in the argument appears to be whether you're the sort of person who respects the cultural norms of others, or whether you expect others across the world to live by your own. If the latter, then you certainly would not understand what's wrong with the title of the book in question. If the former, you would understand that a term as vulgar as this is not appropriate on the cover of a game book, available to children and anyone else who surfs the webstore.
As a native English speaker, I once held the opinion that this was not a vulgar term. But meeting people from other cultures has often had a transformative effect on me, and this is one of those instances. This really is a despicable term in their culture. Using it casually requires either a level of ignorance, or a complete lack empathy. I suspect for most people, it is certainly the former, simply because the term came to the States in a different era, when such things were accepted. But that illusion of decorum does not change the origin of the word, or its persistent meaning in the place where it...
I accept that where a word is singularly offensive or has no other definition (the N word is inherently offensive, the C word has no innocent definition and I would respect someone being offended by it's use), but an otherwise legitimate word with a non-offensive definition I struggle with. To me, it has to come down to the way you use it.
If you use it in a derogatory way or to refer to a group that finds it offensive, it's offensive. If you use it legitimately or respectfully i really struggle to see that anyone should take offence.|
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I'm a writer, I've written products sold here, and I've gotten reviews. Not all good, not all bad. But when I see a bad review for my products or others, I often check to see if that person has posted anything else. If it's an account with no post or 1-2 post, I generally disregard it, and if it's really mean spirited, I'll message Paizo about it. This is something you can do if you have an issue with these reviews, and you can see what the company as a whole thinks. You have the same right to engage Paizo as we do through these reviews, and if you have an issue, I suggest you do just that.
I tend to want to involve the powers that be so to speak as a last resort. In the case of the reviews I already did. I can see why the title is offensive. I also can't respect a review that shows to me that the person reviewing it did not read the product. While trying to shame the publisher into changing a title. Now imagine if that was done to you. It's not a pleasant feeling is it.
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I tend to want to involve the powers that be so to speak as a last resort. In the case of the reviews I already did. I can see why the title is offensive. I also can't respect a review that shows to me that the person reviewing it did not read the product. While trying to shame the publisher into changing a title. Now imagine if that was done to you. It's not a pleasant feeling is it.
I'm a writer, I've written products sold here, and I've gotten reviews. Not all good, not all bad. But when I see a bad review for my products or others, I often check to see if that person has posted anything else. If it's an account with no post or 1-2 post, I generally disregard it, and if it's really mean spirited, I'll message Paizo about it. This is something you can do if you have an issue with these reviews, and you can see what the company as a whole thinks. You have the same right to engage Paizo as we do through these reviews, and if you have an issue, I suggest you do just that.
What else wouldn't be a pleasant feeling for me is putting out a product with a bigotted title. If I had, I'd work with my publisher to change it because I don't want to write things that exclude others. I've done my best to be an inclusionary writer (everything I write is gender neutral in both my guides and my books), and the thought of something I've written making someone feel lesser due to who they were or some intrinsic part about them is far less pleasant than being called out on it.
Not to take sides with anyone, but if you are the producer of the product you should probably just get Paizo staff to remove the discussion in regards to the topic and ask the individual in question to refrain from bringing up the discussion further.
Allow them to have their review in which they state they don't like it because of the name, and allow other to form their opinions as they will.
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I get what your saying.
I still think the way some posters their dislike of the time was extreme. Constact the publisher. Write a thread on the forum. Spamming one star reviews without having read the product. In the hopes of shaming the publisher is not the way to go imo.
As stated, this isn't really about the publisher; they're gone. This is more about the admittedly lax standards of getting the Paizo compatibility licence on one's product. People who are putting up 1 star reviews are showing a disdain for the publisher and for the company at large for allowing this.
Really, I don't blame Paizo for being lax in this; they presumably get a lot of request for this, and it's hard to look over every one, and that's assuming the person who looked over this particular product saw it as offensive, which as we've seen hasn't always been the case.
To me, this is a situation in which we would like to see a touch more care on what is considered acceptable for a product which carries their seal of approval as it were, although were the publisher still active, it would also come with a request to be more aware of the issues of which they're raising (and from the previously posted review also ignoring) when it comes to representing a culture in this fashion.
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If we start with Gypsy. We might as well take out any reference to Witch. That shows up in every AP, 3pp product, module, novel etc. Or a bunch of poster decide some other word is offensive in a few weeks time. Do we then remove that word from every product as well. When it does it stop. I'm not saying just use every and any word in a product. Even if it's offensive. Their a point though that no matter how careful someone is going to be offended. Eventually why publish anything as it's bound to bother someone.
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At least some customers not only look at ratings but also where they are from. Before I buy a PDF, I usually read all reviews - and take the very emotional ones with a grain of salt. No matter whether they are overly positive or overly negative. Detailled, rational reviews like those from Endzeitgeist are way more helpful and get a much higher weight.
Personally, I have like 1/8 'gypsy' blood in me. I don't feel offended by the term, because this distant heritage is not what defines me. However, using such terms is a first step to treat people in a bad way. It's difficult to justify harming a fellow human, but if it's 'just a gypsy', being malicious becomes much easier, suddenly. A lot of movements use this kind of labeling against their enemies or victims - just have a look and start counting.
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This is absolutely a situation where, in the place of this word's origin, it is every bit as offensive as the two words you've mentioned.
The difference is that, in Western culture, this word came to us in a time where the values of other nations were not taken into account. When we excitedly pillaged the burial grounds of ancient nations, propogated the land of those less powerful than ourselves, etc. Under that lens, there was nothing offensive in the word, because there was nothing offensive in it *to us.*
In the modern day, we have no such excuse. We've returned most of the stolen artifacts and we've ceded most of that land. Insisting that a term is inoffensive because many people in our culture never bothered to learn its actual meaning or intent is an anachronism. And, frankly, it's an entitlement that few others in the world enjoy but which most other nations endure.
I feel like I'm preaching, but we have the luxury of declaring that this word is "okay," because we've heard it for a long time and without seeing the damage it has inflicted on others. And because of who "we" are, the people it has injured generally have to accept that sort of hubris with a smile.
I'll get off my soapbox now. This is the sort of thing where people will either agree with it or not, but very few will change their opinion on it.
I am gratified to see a number of people agreeing that, at the very least, this book was given a very unfortunate title.
...Having read through the thread that you provided, I'm seeing two sides to this argument.
One side is saying, "In some countries, the title of this book is one of the most vulgar terms imaginable. For a game that seeks to reach a global audience, it seems awfully irresponsible to use it so casually."
The other side is saying, "Where I'm from this word is not considered vulgar. So, people who find it offensive are overreacting by saying that it is."
I know a lot of people in the States who believe that the curse spelled out in C U Next Tuesday is the dirtiest word in the English language. And they are shocked and offended to hear other English speakers use it casually. Many times, I've heard U.S. speakers ask others not to use that term because it offends them. And folks from England don't get it, but they generally attempt to be "polite."
The whole thing about "bastard" is a rabbit hole, by the way. Not worth pursuing.
The bottom line in the argument appears to be whether you're the sort of person who respects the cultural norms of others, or whether you expect others across the world to live by your own. If the latter, then you certainly would not understand what's wrong with the title of the book in question. If the former, you would understand that a term as vulgar as this is not appropriate on the cover of a game book, available to children and anyone else who surfs the webstore.
As a native English speaker, I once held the opinion that this was not a vulgar term. But meeting people from other cultures has often had a transformative effect on me, and this is one of those instances. This really is a despicable term in their culture. Using it casually requires either a level of ignorance, or a complete lack empathy. I suspect for most people, it is certainly the former, simply because the term came to the States in a different era, when such things were accepted. But that illusion of decorum does not change the origin of the word, or its
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If we start with Gypsy. We might as well take out any reference to Witch. That shows up in every AP, 3pp product, module, novel etc. Or a bunch of poster decide some other word is offensive in a few weeks time. Do we then remove that word from every product as well. When it does it stop. I'm not saying just use every and any word in a product. Even if it's offensive. Their a point though that no matter how careful someone is going to be offended. Eventually why publish anything as it's bound to bother someone.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Gypsy is a racial slur. Witch is not.
Again, slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy.
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If we start with Gypsy. We might as well take out any reference to Witch. That shows up in every AP, 3pp product, module, novel etc. Or a bunch of poster decide some other word is offensive in a few weeks time. Do we then remove that word from every product as well. When it does it stop. I'm not saying just use every and any word in a product. Even if it's offensive. Their a point though that no matter how careful someone is going to be offended. Eventually why publish anything as it's bound to bother someone.
Being honest, you're right, there's no way of telling how the wind will blow in this climate, and perhaps eventually words that we use will be found offensive. There's a lot of words I've removed from my own personal lexicon that I used to use before I realize how much harm they did to others, and yeah, there was that annoyance that came along with "Why must I change to suit the needs of others?" I was a pretty bad person a few years back.
But to me, I'm willing to change and I think others should be willing to change for what I would consider the greater good. I think the best way to avoid anything like that is by taking others feeelings into consideration. The publisher of this product was informed by others that this was an offensive name and didn't care, they simply wanted to be able to use whatever words they wanted.
So where it falls is to make sure when using words that there isn't malice behind them, to make sure that when you're speaking you're doing it respectfully. And sure, sometimes you'll say something that even when you don't intend to will hurt another, it's the same as accidentally bumping into someone when walking. But you don't get angry at that person for asking not to be bumped into, you apologize when you're at fault and you make an attempt not to do it again, just like you'd want when someone else did that to you.
If you make an honest mistake about harmful words, most people are very willing to forgive (some will not, and that happens), especially if you try to make sure you don't repeat that action. So me here, I'm trying to get people to avoid getting angry at being told that they're hurting someone (which is generally the case I see when someone gets mad about being told about something like this), and to try and facilitate a more open and honest dialogue for everyone involved.
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Don't get me wrong I'm not impressed with how the publisher reacted. I don't know them personally. I just prefer to rate a product as a whole. Sapmming one star reviews of the product. Without having read it while people are entitled do. Just does not speak about the product as a whole. I know not all share that opinion. I can understand and respect it.
I am gratified to see a number of people agreeing that, at the very least, this book was given a very unfortunate title.
It could have had a a better title I agree. I also admit to the title not bothering me. It does not make me a bad person. Simply having a different opinion. As I said I prefer a overall review of a product. Thrashing a prodcut. Even with a unfortunate title. Without having read it is unfair to me at least.
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Don't get me wrong I'm not impressed with how the publisher reacted. I don't know them personally. I just prefer to rate a product as a whole. Sapmming one star reviews of the product. Without having read it while people are entitled do. Just does not speak about the product as a whole. I know not all share that opinion. I can understand and respect it.
I can understand that you're arguing for the integrity of reviews here, and I can appreciate that. I'll restate what I did before; people review things for TONS of different reasons. While we'd all enjoy thoughtful reviews about things objectively, that's rarely the case.
I've gotten good reviews because my product included things that people liked entirely regardless of actual implementation. I've seen people give poor reviews because something just 'felt off', and that's how a lot of reviews work. You'll see one sentence 5 star reviews that says "I like this thing a lot!" while you can go to some one star PFS scenarios and just see "This is junk!" because for most of us who just review things, it's to let other people know what we felt while reading or using this product. It's a lot more emotional than most people realize, and what you're seeing with these reviews is just that.
People will pan what they hate, it's how we are, and a lot of these reviews are to send a message to other publishers that things like this aren't tolerable, which is a very solid review. It's just a review of the industry as a whole rather than just the product.
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A quick question do some of the products that you worked on have Hero Lab support?
I'm not sure, I'll have to check because I figure only LG would do that.
I really hope I've helped to clear up any issues on reviews, since they're PAINFULLY important to this industry. I have no shame in admitting that a good review is something I'll read over and over again, and that a bad review is often very painful to read, even though I do read them and make sure that I learn from them as a writer.
Reviewing is emotional, and it's us trying to share the emotions we felt while reading a product with others to influence them, to let them know our opinions on a product. I can respect how much you want to keep reviews valid, and I'd suggest you give your hand at reviewing, as doing it is a good way to get a feel for what you think when you do it. It'll help you get a handle on how other people feel when they review.
Also SAVE YOUR REVIEW BEFORE YOU HIT PUBLISH, THIS FORUM IS LITERALLY THE WORST FOR THAT, COPY IT DOWN BEFORE YOU HIT SEND, THE FORUM WILL EAT IT!
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I know a lot of people in the States who believe that the curse spelled out in C U Next Tuesday is the dirtiest word in the English language. And they are shocked and offended to hear other English speakers use it casually. Many times, I've heard U.S. speakers ask others not to use that term because it offends them. And folks from England don't get it, but they generally attempt to be "polite."
Exactly my point. Should the word be stricken from the lexicon because some people find it offensive?
I say, no.
Cultural differences happen. All language depends on context. Should you attempt to temper your speech according to the people you're interacting with? Of course.
Should you attempt to dictate the linguistic "morality" of other cultures without regard for context? No.
I don't curse around my grandparents. This is not because I think cursing is wrong, but because they think cursing is wrong.
That does not mean I agree with them, nor should I.
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Well I can appreciate having a different postion than mine. I ask about Herolab because I admit the program has spoiled me when it comes to character creation. It's not cheap but so much more faster.
It's all good, I'll ask the publisher and get back to you either on this thread or in a PM since I need to find out from the source. I'm kind of critically out of the loop on HL stuff.
I'm not going to lie, when I first saw the thread title I thought this thread was going to go in the opposite direction and complain about the Cult of Paizo's sycophants giving five stars to everything.
I'm not going to lie, when I first saw the thread title I thought this thread was going to go in the opposite direction and complain about the Cult of Paizo's sycophants giving five stars to everything.
Wow, that's...actually a very real issue which I see a lot. Never really thought of it until now though.
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I'm not going to lie, when I first saw the thread title I thought this thread was going to go in the opposite direction and complain about the Cult of Paizo's sycophants giving five stars to everything.Wow, that's...actually a very real issue which I see a lot. Never really thought of it until now though.
It's usually not a huge deal until they start speaking up in the product threads, decrying any constructive criticism as "hating" and arguing that Paizo can do no wrong and that we should unconditionally trust the devs "because it's their job".
